R-27ER, do I really have to keep target illuminated for hit?

lockon2015 · March 6, 2016

Just want to confirm something,

The R-27ER radar guided missile. I read and tested that you have to keep the target locked on with your plane the whole time this missile tracks to its target. But this gives a contradiction if there is more than one enemy fighter in the region:

If I have to keep my plane locked on fighter number 1 while my missile tracks towards my target, its no problem for other enemy fighters to maneuver and knock me out. I can't re-maneuver until my missile hits which turns out to be a devastatingly long time by dogfight standards.

On the other hand, if I fire the missile like a hit-run to avoid a second enemy target attacking me, the missile won't track to its target. It'll surely miss.

Thus, what good is this missile? It would seem, at least in reality, you'd want all weopons to be fire and forget. Even if you think you are in one-on-one, it seems a good pilot would always be aware there could be other bandits around unknown to him and once he fires any missile at the target, he's got to refocus on something else.

Is there a link about when the R27-ER is good to use and not to use? Maybe, as seems to be from other posts, its just simply not worth anything more than a good distraction to scare an enemy up a bit.

DarkFire · March 6, 2016

Unfortunately yes, you need to keep your target illuminated for the entire time of flight of the missile. This is something that's common of all SARH missiles, e.g. the AIM-7 and the Super-530D that we have in-game.

On that playing field the R-27ER has the advantage of having very high acceleration and a very high top speed.

Against enemy aircraft that have active radar missiles you will be at a significant disadvantage as you described, though at the moment only the F-15C and some versions of the MiG-29 get active radar missiles (the AIM-120 and R-77 respectively).

Missile range in DCS is currently unrealistically low due to missiles having excessive drag. Were this to be fixed then the R-27ER would provide the Flanker with a very large stick indeed.

The R-77 is a bit of an anomaly in that there's scarce evidence that the Russian air force ever stockpiled it or even deployed it on the standard version of the Su-27 that we have in the game. There have been some photos floating around the web of Russian Su-27 variants in Syria carrying the R-77, but even then the exact aircraft variant is open to question. It's variously been called the Su-35, Su-35S or Su-35BM depending on what report you read. The twin-seat Su-30s deployed to Syria are all shown with R-27 missiles.

To answer your final question, and missile ranges as they are aside, the R-27ER should be your primary weapon when a target is more than ~20Km away (head-on aspect).

rrohde · March 6, 2016

Is the fact that we don't have a missile impact countdown in the Su-27 a "bug" or realistic? Kinda hard to determine when to break-off when/if the missile misses...

karambiatos · March 6, 2016

Is the fact that we don't have a missile impact countdown in the Su-27 a "bug" or realistic? Kinda hard to determine when to break-off when/if the missile misses...

I think the Su-27SK manual says there is a countdown, but i don't really remember

EDIT: yep there is, though it isn't a number counter, but a line that i'm guessing decreases.

From the manual there are a bunch of hud elements we don't have, sadly.

Edited March 6, 2016 by karambiatos

GGTharos · March 7, 2016

There should be a count-down for missile time-out, but it's not a TTI.

karambiatos · March 7, 2016

There should be a count-down for missile time-out, but it's not a TTI.

I don't know the Sk manual quite clearly states.

Time, remaining until meeting of the rocket with the target.

GGTharos · March 7, 2016

That differs from what people on the Russian side of the forum have interpreted from that manual, AFAIK.

Cik · March 7, 2016

yes, but that's not why it's a bad missile, and the su is relatively well-suited to carrying SARH with it's relatively ridiculous horizontal radar slew.

the real thing that makes it worthless is it's CM rejection, which makes halfhearted defensive maneuvers defeat it with nearly 100% success rate, making nearly any advantage in speed/altitude pointless.

Jester Darrak · March 7, 2016

As for missile employment tactics you need to stip thinking that every missile has to kill a target with you going home with 10 kills.

Missiles, be it heatseekers or radar guided, are tools that help you bring down an enemy. Sometimes you fire all of them and get either one or even no kill. At the very first missiles act as a deterrent, forcing your opponent to react to the threat. He can run, keep flying into it and die or try to defeat it and re-engage.

But whatever he does, you should monitor his actions but also keep an eye on your surroundings.

Try to pick a target of opportunity instead of jumping on everything that pops up. 2-ship inbound? Fire an ER at the first target, wait a few seconds, fire an ET on his buddy and the re-quire the first one to fire another ER at him. While you do this be sure to keep snaking to keep them as far away as possible and bleed the energy of their missiles.

The first bandit with ER at him will try to defeat it while maneuvering but also could've shot at you. His buddy will keep pressing on you but has an ET at him. Fired at the right distance he won't see it coming and die without further notice. Since th ET is fire and forget you can keep your radar focused on the first one for the second ER shot.

Tactics and situational awareness are what make the difference. If you are outnumbered, try to keep everyone else but the toughest target (the one that jumps on you) at bay and you might even win a fight against 3.

Just keep in mind that missiles are your tool to make the enemy do what you want while lining up for the kill. When I go flying I expect to kill 2 targets with my F-15 -tops. But sometimes I rearm and refuel twice without shooting down anything.

Ironhand · March 7, 2016

That differs from what people on the Russian side of the forum have interpreted from that manual, AFAIK.

FWIW, The HUD elements diagram karambiatos is referring to is Fig 23, the diagram for РНП ("режим непрерывной пеленгации" or what I believe we refer to as STT) Mode. That line on the HUD is labeled "Время, оставшееся до встречи ракеты с целью": Time, remaining before missile intercept with target.

dartuil · March 28, 2016

Su27 dont have fire and forget missiles?

Sryan · March 28, 2016

Su27 dont have fire and forget missiles?

The infrared guided R27T,R27ET and R73 are all fire and forget. There are no F&F Radar guided missiles on the Su-27. The MiG-29 however, does have them.

pepin1234 · March 28, 2016

Su27 dont have fire and forget missiles?

Yes only IR versions, R-27T/ET. To use active radar, fire and forget missile russian made (R-77) you need take the Mig-29S.

Plushanubka · March 28, 2016

It's kinda fire and forget missile. R-27r forget about target after you fire it.

Bruce_D · March 28, 2016

It's kinda fire and forget missile. R-27r forget about target after you fire it.

After the last update I'm managing a lot of kills with the R-27R/ER.

DarkFire · March 28, 2016

After the last update I'm managing a lot of kills with the R-27R/ER.

I agree. My Pk with the R-27ER has improved to somewhere between 25 - 33%, particularly against low aspect targets within Rtr. I wonder if anything changed in the last patch...

IASGATG · March 28, 2016

The missile hasn't been changed in the update. It's just confirmation bias you're experience.

Bruce_D · March 28, 2016

The missile hasn't been changed in the update. It's just confirmation bias you're experience.

The R-27ER has change since last update. Now without turning off the radar I'm hitting an F-15 45 km away.

Aim-120 has improved Either.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Bruce_D

IASGATG · March 28, 2016

The R-27ER has change since last update. Now without turning off the radar I'm hitting an F-15 45 km away.

Aim-120 has improved Either.

Current build --

{

Name = P_27PE, --R-27ER

Escort = 1,

Head_Type = 6,

sigma = {5.6, 5, 5.6},

M = 350.0,

H_max = 27000.0,

H_min = 1.0,

Diam = 265.0,

Cx_pil = 2.21,

D_max = 14000.0, -- Max range at sea level. Use AI only.

D_min = 500.0, -- Min range. Use AI only.

Head_Form = 1,

Life_Time = 1.0e9, -- Not used

Nr_max = 24, -- Not used

v_min = 140.0,

v_mid = 700.0,

Mach_max = 4.0,

t_b = 0.0, -- Not used

t_acc = 4.0, -- Not used

t_marsh = 6.0, -- Not used

Range_max = 60000.0, -- Max range at max altitude. Use AI only.

H_min_t = 20.0,

Fi_start = 0.87, -- Угол уелеуказания

Fi_rak = 3.14152, -- Ракурс цели

Fi_excort = 0.97, -- Угол сопровождения

Fi_search = 0.1, -- Мгновенный угол обзора

OmViz_max = 0.35,

warhead = warheads["P_27PE"],

exhaust = tail_solid,

X_back = -1.617,

Y_back = -0.128,

Z_back = 0.0,

Reflection = 0.062,

KillDistance = 11.0,

ModelData = { 58 , -- model params count

0.9 , -- characteristic square (характеристическая площадь)

-- параметры зависимости Сx

0.07 , -- Cx_k0 планка Сx0 на дозвуке ( M << 1)

0.08 , -- Cx_k1 высота пика волнового кризиса

0.02 , -- Cx_k2 крутизна фронта на подходе к волновому кризису

0.035, -- Cx_k3 планка Cx0 на сверхзвуке ( M >> 1)

2.5 , -- Cx_k4 крутизна спада за волновым кризисом

1.2 , -- коэффициент отвала поляры (пропорционально sqrt (M^2-1))

-- параметры зависимости Cy

0.5 , -- Cy_k0 планка Сy0 на дозвуке ( M << 1)

0.4 , -- Cy_k1 планка Cy0 на сверхзвуке ( M >> 1)

1.2 , -- Cy_k2 крутизна спада(фронта) за волновым кризисом

0.29 , -- 7 Alfa_max максимальный балансировачный угол, радианы

0.0, --угловая скорость создаваймая моментом газовых рулей

-- Engine data. Time, fuel flow, thrust.

-- t_statr t_b t_accel t_march t_inertial t_break t_end -- Stage

-1.0, -1.0, 3.0, 7.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0e9, -- time of stage, sec

0.0, 0.0, 31.9, 6.32, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, -- fuel flow rate in second, kg/sec(секундный расход массы топлива кг/сек), масса топлива 140 кг

0.0, 0.0, 73500.0, 14560.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, -- thrust, newtons

1.0e9, -- таймер самоликвидации, сек

60.0, -- время работы энергосистемы, сек

0, -- абсолютная высота самоликвидации, м

1.5, -- время задержки включения управления (маневр отлета, безопасности), сек

1.0e9, -- дальность до цели в момент пуска, при превышении которой ракета выполняется маневр "горка", м

1.0e9, -- дальность до цели, при которой маневр "горка" завершается и ракета переходит на чистую пропорциональную навигацию (должен быть больше или равен предыдущему параметру), м

0.0, -- синус угла возвышения траектории набора горки

50.0, -- продольное ускорения взведения взрывателя

0.0, -- модуль скорости сообщаймый катапультным устройством, вышибным зарядом и тд

1.19, -- характристика системы САУ-РАКЕТА, коэф фильтра второго порядка K0

1.0, -- характристика системы САУ-РАКЕТА, коэф фильтра второго порядка K1

2.0, -- характристика системы САУ-РАКЕТА, полоса пропускания контура управления

8500.0, -- дальность полета в горизонт с располагаемой перегрузкой Navail >= 1.0 на высоте H=2000

5.5, -- ЗРП. Крутизна зависимости в ППС

30.0, -- коэф поправки к дальности от скорости носителя

0.75, -- безразмерный коэф. эффективности САУ ракеты

54.0, -- Прогноз времени полета ракеты

-- DLZ. Данные для рассчета дальностей пуска (индикация на прицеле)

60000.0, -- дальность ракурс 180(навстречу) град, Н=10000м, V=900км/ч, м

25000.0, -- дальность ракурс 0(в догон) град, Н=10000м, V=900км/ч, м

25000.0, -- дальность ракурс 180 град, Н=1000м, V=900км/ч, м

0.5, -- Уменьшение разрешенной дальности пуска при отклонении вектора скорости носителя от линии визирования цели.

0.3, -- Вертикальная плоскость. Наклон кривой разрешенной дальности пуска в нижнюю полусферу. Уменьшение дальности при стрельбе вниз.

2.0, -- Вертикальная плоскость. Наклон кривой разрешенной дальности пуска в верхнюю полусферу. Увеличение дальности при стрельбе вверх.

-3.0, -- Вертикальная плоскость. Угол перегиба кривой разрешенной дальности, верхняя - нижняя полусфера.

0.7, -- Изменение коэффициентов наклона кривой в верхнюю и нижнюю полусферы от высоты носителя.

},

Old Build --