NOE flying

[erjdriver]

How can I do this...

 

I'm flying 50 RA high, forward at a set speed - no flight plan or route active.

 

Aircraft is trimmed.

 

How can I set up - so that the heli will keep flying forward but keep 50 RA.

 

 

I've got ALT enabled, FD/AP enabled and DH/DT switch toggle in middle.

[Sryan]

did you hit the collective brake when you where at 50 meters radar altitude? Lastly is the autopilot altitude mode set to radar and not barometric?

[Rogue Trooper]

50 RA means 50 meters?

If so this ain't NAP my friend, this is high altitude flying!

 

Surely you meant 15 meters and if that is so, then my answer is :

This ain't NAP my friend, this is high altitude flying!

Edited April 8, 2016 by Rogue Trooper

[erjdriver]

did you hit the collective brake when you where at 50 meters radar altitude? Lastly is the autopilot altitude mode set to radar and not barometric?

 

I wasn't doing it - but I did it and not much better result.

 

I do have FD/AP button off - so the 4 square buttons including ALT are ON and the one to the right FD/AP is off.

 

 

It seems to be working but then again it crashes into the side of the mountain - not climbing fast enough...not flying that fast and the terrain doesn't rise very quickly.

 

Am I suppose to adjust the collective also manually?

[kilix]

I've got ALT enabled, FD/AP enabled and DH/DT switch toggle in middle.

 

that's the problem

leave all four AP channels on while FD is off.

FD on causes alt channel to just show you where you need to be. Not keep you there.

Also, remember that autopilot has only 20% authority. It will gladly ram you into the side of the mountain, if you dont pay attention. Even with alt hold.

Actually, all four AP channels have only 20% authority.

 

EDIT> heh, you posted few mins before, you solved this already

also, what Rogue Trooper said. NoE flight is typically lower

[flanker0ne]

1) Flying at constant Radar Altitude and speed it's not NOE but Contour mode, as you can see in the image below.

 

 

2) If you fly with the FD/AP enabled you are telling to the AP to exclude any direction and altitude input. You can see this button as an Auto Pilot Override.

 

3) Swith the RD/BARO to RD (Radar)

 

So summig up:

ALT Channel ON

RD/BARO on RD

FD/AP OFF

[erjdriver]

EDIT> heh, you posted few mins before, you solved this already

also, what Rogue Trooper said. NoE flight is typically lower

 

I believe I have configured as suggested by all - thanks.

 

But still it crashes into the side of the mountain - do i have to increase collective manually, pitch up or both?

[ShuRugal]

the autopilot has only 20% control authority. If you want the AP to maintain a precise radar altitude in mountainous terrain, you will need to set a very slow forward speed.

 

The autopilot in this helicopter is NOT like the autopilot in an Airbus: You cannot simply set it and walk away, you must still fly the helicopter. The AP in the KA-50 is ONLY intended to ASSIST the pilot so that he may spare some attention to searching outside the cockpit and manipulating the targeting/weapons systems.

[StrongHarm]

Few aircraft have true NOE terrain following capability. The A-10C does, but that's one of the subsystems that ED had to exclude from production. If you think about it, it's not surprising that it's so difficult to do and highly classified.. the civi world is still trying to get a car to drive itself through traffic (reliably). I believe that is small potatoes compared to a high speed aircraft automatically flying NOE without becoming a lawn dart.

 

Where the Blackshark is concerned, the engineering goal was far from bells and whistles. It was to create a low cost, low maintenance, fully capable utilitarian beast of a war pig. I think they hit the hell out of the head of that particular nail.

[kilix]

I believe I have configured as suggested by all - thanks.

 

But still it crashes into the side of the mountain - do i have to increase collective manually, pitch up or both?

 

Indeed it does. 20% authority is not much. Even if you set your airspeed to 100km/h and alt hold on 100m RALT, you can not be 100% sure, that you can go and make a coffee while route mode takes you home.

 

I don't fly like this anymore, but when I did, I used collective brake to overcome obstacles with alt AP channel on. Try it, that is how it is supposed to work.

[erjdriver]

I don't fly like this anymore, but when I did, I used collective brake to overcome obstacles with alt AP channel on. Try it, that is how it is supposed to work.

 

AP Channel ON?

 

Isn't that the same button as AP/FD - shouldn't that be off - as explained by all responders - or is this another mode of flying.

 

This button label is a little bit confusing because when the button is enabled (lit) - you're really disabling the AP right and flying manually with flight direction.

 

 

Pressing the brake - won't that change to a new RA altitude when released.

 

I would have thought that if there's terrain coming up - increase just the collective and when over, decrease collective. Then the AP would try to get back to the last set RA altitude.

[kilix]

I wrote alt AP channel, by which I meant altitude hold AP channel.

Not flight director mode.

Flight director "disables" - or better word will be overrides - other AP channels, but the dampening system works as before. So you're kinda right. Disabling all AP channels is when they are all unlit and it is not recommended to fly the black shark this way. But you can try, every training helps. And they will disable when you are returning to base with battle damage.

 

Pressing the collective brake overrides the 20% alt hold authority (similar to pressing and holding the trimmer) and it sets new RA altitude as you said.

It is also doable as you said in the last sentence, by only raising and then lowering the collective after the obstacle was passed.

So, pick your own style and practice to make it effective :)

There is no solid way to fly the beast, if it works effectively for you, then it is a good flying style.

[ShuRugal]

Flight director "disables" - or better word will be overrides - other AP channels, but the dampening system works as before.

 

so, regardless of whether or not the FD is engaged, the AP will get the pilot wet?

[kilix]

exactly :D

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/adult-incontinence-man-wet-patch-front-his-trousers-symbolizing-59621657.jpg

[Yurgon]

Pressing the brake - won't that change to a new RA altitude when released.

 

I would have thought that if there's terrain coming up - increase just the collective and when over, decrease collective. Then the AP would try to get back to the last set RA altitude.

 

To the best of my knowledge, the radar altitude is derived from right below the chopper. So if an obstacle comes up, the chopper can only react as the surface elevation changes. And with 20% authority, chances are it'll indeed fly itself right into the obstacle, so as was said before, this is definitely not suited for any kind of NOE flight.

 

If you have the altitude channel on and increase or decrease the collective, the helicopter will more or less fight your inputs - because it tries to maintain the altitude that it was on when the channel was engaged, or when the collective brake was last pushed.

 

That means whenever you intend to change the altitude with alt hold on, you should use the collective brake to let the aircraft know your intentions and keep it from fighting, or counteracting, your inputs.

 

With everything the chopper has to do, my experience is that the alt hold hardly ever works 100% spot on. In level flight, with a well trimmed chopper, it's pretty accurate, but if you change your attitude, chances are the altitude will be off until the chopper managed to settle, and you have to help it by adjusting the collective accordingly.

[BitMaster]

It is frankly said a bad idea to try so and a misunderstanding of the Kamov to think so as described before.

 

You fly by hand for 30min into the combat zone NOE if you dont own the space, that's how it is ;)

You then shoot 12 Vikhrs,get 12 kills if lucky and then set PVR800 to FARP and RTB for 30min....and then again... that'as a chopper pilots life...low and slow

 

 

Honestly, do not try to use the AP for any NOE or low level traverse, it is limited to the before mentioned 20% authority and thus will ram you into the hill every now and then while you are at the fridge for another soda ;) Radar mode in general leaves many wishes open, all bound to those 20% authority which aint much when you fly fast..but again... it was not designed to be "mis"used like that as an "walk-away-AP". It simply isn't.

[Fri13]

Just to repeat some of the said things:

 

- In real KA-50 you can't adjust the collective without grabbing the collective break.

- When collective break lever is pulled, Altitude channel is temporarily disabled and when you release the lever, that altitude you were at the moment is marked for Altitude channel to be hold.

- FD channel is "Flight Director" that disables the attitude control and only dampens the inputs. Better way is to hold the trim button while maneuvering and then release when wanted to mark the current attitude for channels to be remembered. (I don't even use whole FD channel at all).

 

Flying NOE is super easy on DCS for most parts because most parts are totally flat. And I mean that you can program KA-50 to fly 290km/h at 2m altitude and flying home. But in real world you couldn't do NOE at all because you need to all the time manage your altitude based the obstacles and that means going all the time up/down/around. And flying NOE means speeds lower than 35km/h at max (likely just 10-15km/h) and staying below 15m (meaning your rotors mast doesn't go higher than that) and that means you are about 3m from ground.

 

Once you handle KA-50 well, you can easily fly cruising speeds at 10-20m altitudes between buildings etc but try that at night or bad weather and it becomes very challenging. But you need to handle that, because you need to be able do proper rocket runs, by speeding up while flying low, quickly pop-up behind cover, strike and then do quickly turn to same direction you came from and slide back to cover. And this by even doing a 50-200m altitude raise. And when you expose yourself to enemy, you have like a 10 seconds time to launch rockets and get back to cover. Others can be that you need to be able fly sideways at 50-70km/h speed while firing cannon and rockets for targets and then turn to speed up and get back to cover.

 

But to do such things, you need to know how to handle helicopter in NOE, so slow and easy, dipping in and out on the terrain.

 

And when flying low speeds (below 40km/h) then you need to control your altitude with the collective. But when you fly like 80-200km/h then you do it with cyclic and flying like an airplane. And this is the great thing why you don't need to alter autopilot or reprogram it as it just has 16% override capability, you just pull cyclic to raise and then lower to get back down and let go at the good attitude.

 

ANd as was said, the altitude channel uses either radar or barometer altitude and the radar is point straight down so if you bank or pitch, the range will change because the angle of helicopter has changed, so think about the rotor mast extending down to ground while flying. As even when flying slowly and there comes the mountain hill, you need to be prepared to be in controls Same thing is with flying over buildings, as you will otherwise pop up even more. Why pressing and holding trimmer when doing all the maneuvers is the easiest way to do as you are in direct control at the moment with a dampened controls.

 

It is important to learn that you keep AP all the time enabled and you use it all the time, but you just reprogram with trim button while using pedals, cyclic and collective with collective lever. Oh and other programming methods are the helmet targeting system, shkval and ABRIS.

[StrongHarm]

I don't keep all AP channels enabled all the time. I'm a firm believer that making a heading change requires only disabling APheading, making the turn, then re-enabling it. It's foolish to trim while making a heading change (unless there's a big wind change). Although turning off pitch and bank AP compromise the airframe stability, turning off heading AP does not. This in my opinion is a huge inefficiency by most DCS KA-50 pilots.

[Raptor9]

I don't keep all AP channels enabled all the time. I'm a firm believer that making a heading change requires only disabling APheading, making the turn, then re-enabling it. It's foolish to trim while making a heading change (unless there's a big wind change). Although turning off pitch and bank AP compromise the airframe stability, turning off heading AP does not. This in my opinion is a huge inefficiency by most DCS KA-50 pilots.

 

If you want to keep the stability, just enable FD mode and it disables the hold functions but retains the stability functions. OR just hold the trimmer while you make the turn and then release it when you've completed it, easy as cake. Holding the trimmer interrupts the AP hold functions while pressed.

[StrongHarm]

I see what you mean Raptor9, but attend carefully and consider: it's silly to retrim, or interrupt configuration with FD, when all you want to do is change heading. For this you turn off APheading, change heading, then turn APheading back on and it holds that heading without retrimming all channels when all you're doing is changing heading. Please, consider what I'm saying while performing it in practice. When you try it, you may find that it's clearly a more efficient procedure.