F-22 Raptor "sucks"

[aaron886]

I hear ADA is/has been a serious pain in the arse to work with.

[tflash]

Find it hard to believe that so many people are surprise ( some sound appalled) at the USAF decision to fly and aircraft with inherent dangers without correcting them. I'm sure if we look back at the history of military aviation we can find hundreds (if not more) if instances/ examples of aircraft unfit for flight, given to pilots to fly in combat.

 

The mishaps always lead to bad press, and rightly so. That's what makes today's planes so reliable. Good BTW that you remind us that Lockheed also produced the F-104 "Widowmaker", an aircraft that flew in the BAF and we were eager to replace for obvious reasons. To quote Wikipedia:

 

"The poor safety record of the Starfighter brought the aircraft into the public eye, especially in Luftwaffe service."

[IvanK]

Straight out Oxy cough or the "chokes" is also a known issue for those using 100% Oxy all the time rather than a dilution system. even ancient aviators are aware of it. Though it would seem things are a little more complex in the F22 issue.

[mikoyan]

The mishaps always lead to bad press, and rightly so. That's what makes today's planes so reliable. Good BTW that you remind us that Lockheed also produced the F-104 "Widowmaker", an aircraft that flew in the BAF and we were eager to replace for obvious reasons. To quote Wikipedia:

 

"The poor safety record of the Starfighter brought the aircraft into the public eye, especially in Luftwaffe service."

 

How many successful jet fighters has Looked Martin Produced?; I think they are more into specialty aircraft and not so good into large production jet fighters.

 

F-16? No, it was designed bt General Dynamics, f-15? no Designed by McDonnell Douglass, f-14? Grumman. F-18 Mcdonnell again. F-4...

Look at the yf-23; if McDonnell was so busy to produce it, why Looked Martin has the Monopoly over almost everything concerning military. I just don't understand why nobody is held accountable for LM failures.

[213]

no one said it was going to be completely safe. that's the nature of technology, especially military technology. pilots who use such systems know the risk they're getting into, as do all soldiers.

 

also what you're proposing is ludicrous in itself. are you going to pin the death of a pilot onto the specific engineer responsible for the system that was eventually determined to be the cause of failure?

[XarBat]

It is scary that even after so long they still have no idea what the problem is. 18% seems really low; it could anything from jet fumes to the type of detergent used to wash the helmets. Until they fix the problem; they need to enhance the on the ground low oxygen training of-22 pilots.

 

Nevermind, just rewatched it. I doubt the chemical used to clean the masks could have caused that kind of memory loss.

Edited May 22, 2012 by XarBat

[mvsgas]

Just thought it was interesting, not the best and entertaining reading.

 

Congressional Research Service

F-22A Raptor

Christopher Bolkcom

Specialist in Military Aviation

March 5, 2009

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA496273

 

 

F-22 Structural Coupling Lessons Learned

William R. Wray, Jr.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/p010475.pdf

 

Cognitive and Perceptual Performance Effects of Controlled

Exposure to Acute Hypoxic Stress

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA549153

 

 

Hypoxic Hypoxia at Moderate Altitudes:

State of the Science

By Frank Petrassi

Steven Gaydos

John Ramiccio

P. Lynne Walters

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA545310

Edited May 22, 2012 by mvsgas

[tflash]

Just thought it was interesting, not the best and entertaining reading.

 

 

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA496273

 

 

 

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/p010475.pdf

 

 

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA549153

 

 

 

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA545310

 

Thanks, good info!

[tflash]

no one said it was going to be completely safe. that's the nature of technology, especially military technology. pilots who use such systems know the risk they're getting into, as do all soldiers.

 

also what you're proposing is ludicrous in itself. are you going to pin the death of a pilot onto the specific engineer responsible for the system that was eventually determined to be the cause of failure?

 

No, it's not about blame. Also, the hypoxia problem affects only a small part of F-22 flights. However, it is good practice in aviation to dig into any problem, whatever the cost. This has been the foundation of flight safety. We could never have had such a booming aviation business if we would have been sloppy on safety.

 

With 5th generation aircraft one is breaking new ground. Better sort out the F-22 problem before the same cause propagates in hundreds of F-35's. Many feel the report on Elmendorf was too quick to blame the pilot, and was not taking the problems seriously. E.g., the fact that it wasn't possible to identify the cause of the original bleed air problem should have made the report much more prudent in its conclusions.

 

In this case, some bad press is saving lives in the long run.

[tflash]

Interesting: the anti-G suit comes in the picture: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/combat-edge-anti-g-ensemble-might-be-causing-raptors-oxygen-woes-372642/

[GGTharos]

Interesting indeed, thanks for the link :)

[Vekkinho]

Raptor cough:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBMO34AMkyk

[hassata]

And again:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/10330755

[mikoyan]

It also looks like the g suit is preventing pilots from breathing better; perhaps this is consequence of the high g and high speed performance of the raptor; think about it. This jet most likely is flown at higher altitudes and speeds that a regular f-16. It also stays at higher speeds for a greater amount of time than a regular fighter; so the pilot is more likely to be pulling more gs that a previous generation fighter.

To me it looks like no one expected any side effects after increasing the performance on 5th generation fighters.

[Vekkinho]

^^^^

Hmm, what would the SR-71 pilots say?

[Yurgon]

The Blackbird isn't notorious for prolonged high G turns, or is it? :joystick:

[GGTharos]

No, it wasn't, and also the SR-71 pilots wore what were essentially space suits.

[Vekkinho]

Yes but it flew higher and faster than anything else and noone experienced any side effects...

[GGTharos]

Yeah, since they were wearing a space suit.

[VAOZoky]

Yeah, since they were wearing a space suit.

 

:lol:

 

Do Russians wear space suit while doing cobra? Im seriously asking because suit of mig21 pilot looks like space suit to me (and yes i do know that mig21 cant do cobra:))

[GGTharos]

Cobra is a 3G stunt :)

 

SR-71 flies at altitudes where space suit is needed.

 

:lol:

 

Do Russians wear space suit while doing cobra? Im seriously asking because suit of mig21 pilot looks like space suit to me (and yes i do know that mig21 cant do cobra:))

[Snoopy]

Well...not wanting to start another F-22 vs Eurofighter arguement but found this article interesting since it has a USAF responce....

 

IMO, both great airframes but both designed for different A2A roles, really no different than try to compare an F-16 to an F-15 IMO.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/f-22-fighter-loses-79-billion-advantage-dogfights-201119575--abc-news-topstories.html

 

The United States has spent nearly $80 billion to develop the most advanced stealth fighter jet in history, the F-22 Raptor, but the Air Force recently found out firsthand that while the planes own the skies at modern long-range air combat, it is "evenly matched" with cheaper, foreign jets when it comes to old-school dogfighting.

 

The F-22 made its debut at the international Red Flag Alaska training exercise this June where the planes "cleared the skies of simulated enemy forces and provided security for Australian, German, Japanese, Polish and [NATO] aircraft," according to an after-action public report by the Air Force. The F-22 took part in the exercise while under strict flying restrictions imposed by Defense Secretary Leon Panetta in light of mysterious, potentially deadly oxygen problems with the planes - problems that the Pentagon believes it has since solved.

 

The Air Force said the planes flew 80 missions during the event "with a very high mission success rate." However, a new report from Combat Aircraft Monthly revealed that in a handful of missions designed to test the F-22 in a very specific situation - close-range, one-on-one combat - the jet appeared to lose its pricey advantages over a friendly rival, the Eurofighter Typhoon, flown in this case by German airmen.

 

"We expected to perform less with the Eurofighter but we didn't," German air officer Marc Grune said, according to Combat Aircraft Monthly. "We were evenly matched. They didn't expect us to turn so aggressively."

Two other German officers, Col. Andreas Pfeiffer and Maj. Marco Gumbrecht, noted in the same report that the F-22's capabilities are "overwhelming" when it comes to modern, long-range combat as the stealth fighter is designed to engage multiple enemies well-beyond the pilot's natural field of vision - mostly while the F-22 is still out of the other plane's range. Grumbrecht said that even if his planes did everything right, they weren't able to get within 20 miles of the next-generation jets before being targeted.

 

"But as soon as you get to the merge…" Pfeiffer said, referring to the point at which fighters engage in close-up dog fighting, "in that area, at least, the Typhoon doesn't necessarily have to fear the F-22 in all aspects… In the dogfight the Eurofighter is at least as capable as the F-22, with advantages in some aspects."

 

In response to the report, a spokesperson for the Air Force, Lt. Col. Tadd Sholtis, told ABC News that one-on-one combat is only one way to evaluate an aircraft's capabilities and said it's not "necessarily the most relevant to every scenario."

 

"The F-22 is conceived and employed as part of an integrated force that provides offensive capabilities that make close engagements far less likely while retaining the ability to handle close engagements in tandem with other fighters," he said.

 

Air Force Gen. John Jumper, one of the few airmen to have flown both aircraft, said in 2005 that it is difficult to compare the F-22 and the Eurofighter.

 

"They are different kinds of airplanes to start with," he said, according to an Air Force Print News report. "It's like asking us to compare a NASCAR car with a Formula 1 car. They are both exciting in different ways, but they are designed for different levels of performance."

 

The F-22 "can maneuver with the best of them if it has to, but what you want to be able to do is get into contested airspace no matter where it is," Jumper said, referring to the F-22's stealth and supercruise capabilities that are meant to allow the plane to sneak in to hostile territory undetected - an ability the non-stealth Eurofighter lacks.

 

As for where that contested airspace may be, the Air Force hasn't said. But in April 2011 an executive for Lockheed Martin, the primary manufacturer of the F-22, told ABC News that the plane could "absolutely" find a home in quick strike missions against countries like Iran or North Korea. Over the weekend, the Air Force deployed a squadron of F-22s to Kadena Air Base in southern Japan just over 800 miles south of the North Korean border - a move that comes three months after an undisclosed number of the stealth jets were deployed to an allied base in the United Arab Emirates, some 200 miles from the Iranian mainland.

 

The F-22 is the single most expensive fighter jet in history at a total acquisition cost of an estimated $79 billion for 187 planes, meaning each plane costs approximately $420 million. Estimates for the Eurofighter Typhoon - the premier fighter for several allied countries including the U.K., Germany and Italy - put that plane at just under $200 million each, according to an April 2011 report by England's Public Accounts Committee.

"[Red Flag was] a mission to get to know each other, the first contact by German Eurofighters in the continental U.S.," Grune said of mock-fighting the F-22s. "We are not planning on facing each other in combat. We want to work together but it was a starter for us to work together. They were impressed, as we were impressed by them."

[Vekkinho]

Yeah, since they were wearing a space suit.

 

So make Raptor pilots wear Blackbird space suits and you've solved the "Raptor problem"...

[GGTharos]

Given that they haven't figured out what IS causing the problems yet, I'd say space suits aren't necessarily going to solve anything.

[Snoopy]

Given that they haven't figured out what IS causing the problems yet, I'd say space suits aren't necessarily going to solve anything.

 

Actually they think they have, they are blaming it on the new G suite...