F-22 Raptor "sucks"

[Anytime]

lol and i think GG likes the F-22 ( minus the software bugs ;P )

 

 

Wow. I read the whole thread and I got the impression that rattler really, really like EF2000. Really likes it. A lot.

 

:D

[GGTharos]

Ugh, software bugs. Ugh (I work as a software QA person)

[Frostie]

:D So the Typhoon is a shadow of the F-22 ok w/e just like the F15 would wipe the floor with a Tornado (not at Redflag they don't) , we've heard it all before not just a/c pretty much everything that comes from the US is untouchable im happy to just nod and agree with ya.:megalol:

[rattler]

:D So the Typhoon is a shadow of the F-22 ok w/e just like the F15 would wipe the floor with a Tornado (not at Redflag they don't) , we've heard it all before not just a/c pretty much everything that comes from the US is untouchable im happy to just nod and agree with ya.:megalol:

yup, I think I will now do the same.

[GGTharos]

I suppose you could decide to intepret what I said that way.

 

No amount of cheerleading will change reality ;)

[Floyd]

Ok, after reading all postings i'm willing to accept the F-22 as the super

duper fighter. But what do you wanna do with it? Defend your homeland?

He he, it was never attacked by hostile fighters. So what do you need

the plane for? China, Russia, North Korea? Don't forget you'll need

an airbase for your littl' toy. Air domination - great concept, but where

do you want to attack next? I know discussing this will lead to politics

what is not allowed here, but to debate on 29 pages w/o strategic

background is just a waste of time IMHO.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Since this is a discussion forum, posters here are free to either participate or not participate in any of the many discussions that take place here. If anybody thinks its silly or a waste of time, they have the freedom to simply shake their heads and not view the thread anymore. As Pilotasso intended for his thread, many of us are mostly interested in discussing what 5th Generation aircraft tactics might consist of. Granted, all any of us can do is speculate and debate based on public domain info. The thread gets funny from time to time when somebody lets jealousy overtake them and the only thing they can add to the discussion is how they think proponents of the F-22 are blind followers of some cult. The F-22 guys here, so far, have been the only ones to present any actual evidence of their claims...but...that's just what we do. :P

[GGTharos]

Thin kabout this Floyd; your country (whichever it may be, it makes no difference to this argument) is now in peace with its neighbours. Should it stop replacing ageing rifles? Should it just replace them with the old model and not buy a new one? Maybe it should just disband the entire army since it isn't needed?

 

That is your argument. :)

[Guest Cali]

Ok, after reading all postings i'm willing to accept the F-22 as the super

duper fighter. But what do you wanna do with it? Defend your homeland?

He he, it was never attacked by hostile fighters. So what do you need

the plane for? China, Russia, North Korea? Don't forget you'll need

an airbase for your littl' toy. Air domination - great concept, but where

do you want to attack next? I know discussing this will lead to politics

what is not allowed here, but to debate on 29 pages w/o strategic

background is just a waste of time IMHO.

 

 

Like I have said before "Just say NO to drugs!"

 

need a airbase, hmm I guess we don't have any besides in the good ole US of A....huh?

[cool_t]

Wow! Heated.

 

It's not the plane, its the pilot who fly's it.

 

:pilotfly:

[D-Scythe]

FYI the Raptor has provisions for a IRST and a side mounted phased array radar if the Air Force ever decided it would need it.

 

Think the plan was to install extra AESA arrays in the wings. IIRC, much of the wiring/support structure for these extra arrays is still in place, so if the funding does come through, it would be a relatively quick and easy affair to install these extra radar elements.

 

I haven't heard of any plans to mount IRST onto the Raptor. If any thing resembling an IRST would be mounted onto the F-22, I'd imagine it would be more like a stealthy, internal Sniper XR/LANTIRN targetting pod with IRST functions, rather than a "pure" IRST.

 

It's not the plane, its the pilot who fly's it.

 

:pilotfly:

 

If you put the best pilot in the world into an F-86, would you expect it to win against a mediocre pilot in a F-15C? Obviously not.

 

The F-22 was designed for *absolute* capability over-match against *anything* flying today or in the next 20 years, mediocre pilots or not. However, USAF pilots are still amongst the best trained in the world (if not the best), so what do you get when you take well-trained pilots and put them into the F-22?

 

Answer: complete air dominance for the next 30 years.

[Pilotasso]

I dont like absolutist answers^^^^ ;) but I am convinced the well trained and sesoned pilots hold alot of advantage fying the raptor. Most airforces will deplete all their aircraft before they see the day one F-22 is down.

[tflash]

The F-22 was designed for *absolute* capability over-match against *anything* flying today or in the next 20 years, mediocre pilots or not. However, USAF pilots are still amongst the best trained in the world (if not the best), so what do you get when you take well-trained pilots and put them into the F-22?

 

Answer: complete air dominance for the next 30 years.

 

 

This is all right, but you keep missing the point that for more than a decade is pitting the USAF against congress.

 

Capability = aircraft x pilots x numbers

 

The USAF is arguing for years now that the number that will be acquired is NOT sufficient for their goals. The reason is, and I will again have to repeat myself, that the cost it to high.

 

The USAF has every reason to train in 1 against 6 scenario's, since this will be the reality.

 

So, if I understand the USAF right, you WOULD have air dominance for 30 years IF there is funding for 381 aircraft, not 185.

 

Otherwise, where are they discussing about?

 

IF Russia could build 4 carriers of the Kuznetsov class, we would have a totally different strategic situation in the Baltic and black sea;

 

IF they would be able to produce 250 Su-30's, we would need a rethink.

 

They dont. IF the USAF could field as many Raptors they would like to buy, they WOULD have "complete air dominance for the next 30 years".

[Guest Cali]

This is all right, but you keep missing the point that for more than a decade is pitting the USAF against congress.

 

Capability = aircraft x pilots x numbers

 

The USAF is arguing for years now that the number that will be acquired is NOT sufficient for their goals. The reason is, and I will again have to repeat myself, that the cost it to high.

 

The USAF has every reason to train in 1 against 6 scenario's, since this will be the reality.

 

So, if I understand the USAF right, you WOULD have air dominance for 30 years IF there is funding for 381 aircraft, not 185.

 

Otherwise, where are they discussing about?

 

IF Russia could build 4 carriers of the Kuznetsov class, we would have a totally different strategic situation in the Baltic and black sea;

 

IF they would be able to produce 250 Su-30's, we would need a rethink.

 

They dont. IF the USAF could field as many Raptors they would like to buy, they WOULD have "complete air dominance for the next 30 years".

 

There are a bunch of "if's" in there...we have to go on what we/they have now. They might want more for their goals but they will make due with what they have. We still have 15's and 16's, they haven't went anywhere yet.

[tflash]

I think you are right. having the best aircraft already is for sure a good beginning. And on top of this, the F-15C is so good that its airframe live still offers deployability till 2015.

The only thing is that statements like ""complete air dominance for the next 30 years" are a little over the top. It doesn't mean that much. The only thing that counts is if you have the resources to meet the conflicts that present themselves.

[Guest Cali]

tflash,

 

True a lot can happen in 30 years, the F-15 has been king for how long? I'm sure the Raptor will continue to get upgrades to make it better. Just like the the 16's and A-10's have had (just to name a few). Maybe it will take another 20 years before a new fighter is in delopment. But only time will tell these things.

[D-Scythe]

I think you are right. having the best aircraft already is for sure a good beginning. And on top of this, the F-15C is so good that its airframe live still offers deployability till 2015.

The only thing is that statements like ""complete air dominance for the next 30 years" are a little over the top. It doesn't mean that much. The only thing that counts is if you have the resources to meet the conflicts that present themselves.

 

Two points:

 

One: If the USAF was able to buy the F-22 like it DID want to buy it, than the price of the entire program (relative to the number of airframes bought) wouldn't be so high. The program was delayed and cut back - delays cost a LOT of money (you need to maintain production assets, security, hydro/electricity, etc. for that much longer) and cutting back on the numbers of Raptors bought inflates the individual price of each airframe when R&D costs, etc. are factored in.

 

Two: How is complete air dominance for the next 30 years over the top? The military equipment that you mentioned (the Kutznetzov, Su-30, etc.) can all be effectively countered by another weapons system in one way or another. With the F-22, it *has* no counter.

 

For example, if Russia built 8 extra carriers and 240 Su-33s to go with it, than the US can likewise build extra carriers/JSFs/Super Hornets. With the F-22, it doesn't matter how many MiGs, Flankers or SAMs you build. It's gonna smash everything to bits and there is *nothing* the enemy can do about it.

 

The only difference between a force of 100 Su-27s and a force of 1000 Su-27s to the F-22 is that 1000 Flankers are gonna take longer to kill. Everything in the air is basically just a target to the Raptor - stealth, supercruise and great situational awareness ensures that the F-22 will be to engage what it wants, where it wants, and how it wants (provided that it comes with a competent pilot).

 

It's like putting F-5s against AESA/FDL equipped F-15Cs, linked to AWACs. Sure, the F-5s are gonna be able to pick up the -15s on radar, but the Eagles probably had them on radar ages ago and have probably multi-targetted each F-5 with a Slammer. Then, the F-15s can choose to engage the survivors with AIM-9Xs, but they can also choose to run away.

 

How do you win against such an enemy? It doesn't matter how many F-5s you have, the F-15s will always pick you up sooner, and will always know what you're doing because of AESA, FDL and AWACs. A hundred, five hundred, a thousand F-5s aren't gonna make a difference - the Eagles can always run away if they don't want to fight.

[nscode]

The only difference between a force of 100 Su-27s and a force of 1000 Su-27s to the F-22 is that 1000 Flankers are gonna take longer to kill. Everything in the air is basically just a target to the Raptor - stealth, supercruise and great situational awareness ensures that the F-22 will be to engage what it wants, where it wants, and how it wants (provided that it comes with a competent pilot).

 

 

lol, pure lol

[GGTharos]

Quantity is its own form of quality. You can win with MiG-15's if you have enough of them. A raptor can't take out 20 MiG-15's. i fyou have 20 ofem for every raptor out there, you'll eventually win.

 

 

The point here is that the Raptor is the -spearhead- ... it will attrit the best of the enemy's interceptrs and air superiority aircraft, leaving the rest to more conventional fighters.

[Ukr_Alex]

 

 

The only difference between a force of 100 Su-27s and a force of 1000 Su-27s to the F-22 is that 1000 Flankers are gonna take longer to kill.

 

 

You do realize that by the time it takes out the first 100 the other 900 will be within visual range. What you gonna do then? Hit the stealth button?

[Shaman]

The only difference between a force of 100 Su-27s and a force of 1000 Su-27s to the F-22 is that 1000 Flankers are gonna take longer to kill. Everything in the air is basically just a target to the Raptor - stealth, supercruise and great situational awareness ensures that the F-22 will be to engage what it wants, where it wants, and how it wants (provided that it comes with a competent pilot).

You do realize that by the time it takes out the first 100 the other 900 will be within visual range. What you gonna do then? Hit the stealth button?

pwned

 

noo..that's just to much

LMAO:megalol:

 

basically, you should have read the FAQ: "F-22 pwns all" :doh:

[Guest IguanaKing]

You do realize that by the time it takes out the first 100 the other 900 will be within visual range. What you gonna do then? Hit the stealth button?

 

The F-22 won't be alone, it'll have lots of other eyes in the sky networked to it, so that scenario shouldn't happen. I use "shouldn't" with special emphasis, however, because the whole show is still controlled by human beings and there is always a possibility of a catastrophic and collossal f'up. The F-22s pick and sort their targets automatically, fire their missiles, then turn and supercruise home to refuel and rearm. The aircraft opposing them will be governed by the same laws of needing fuel and weapons in order to survive. Once air superiority is established, enemy airfields are hit by JDAMs from B-2s. Well...that's the basic concept anyway. :smilewink: F-22s significantly improve the odds for victory, but if they're not used correctly....

[TucksonSonny]

The only difference between a force of 100 Su-27s and a force of 1000 Su-27s to the F-22 is that 1000 Flankers are gonna take longer to kill. Everything in the air is basically just a target to the Raptor - stealth, supercruise and great situational awareness ensures that the F-22 will be to engage what it wants, where it wants, and how it wants (provided that it comes with a competent pilot)..

 

Su-27 territory = S-300/400 territory = China/Russia/India territory.

China/Russia/India = nuclear superpower territory :D

[Ukr_Alex]

The F-22 won't be alone, it'll have lots of other eyes in the sky networked to it, so that scenario shouldn't happen. I use "shouldn't" with special emphasis, however, because the whole show is still controlled by human beings and there is always a possibility of a catastrophic and collossal f'up. The F-22s pick and sort their targets automatically, fire their missiles, then turn and supercruise home to refuel and rearm. The aircraft opposing them will be governed by the same laws of needing fuel and weapons in order to survive. Once air superiority is established, enemy airfields are hit by JDAMs from B-2s. Well...that's the basic concept anyway. :smilewink: F-22s significantly improve the odds for victory, but if they're not used correctly....

 

 

Well you are getting into details. The other side has details too.

 

I simply relied to what would happen if you send x amount of F22s towards 1000 Flankers:smilewink:

 

 

And if the States ever need to employ B-2s and F-22s in the same big war sh*t is going to hit the nuclear fan and all that flanker and stealth technology can go out the window. If the US is not going to war with any of todays nuclear powers do you really need F-22s? You can fight those wars with F-15s and F16s just fine.

 

What will mater then is who can build the bigger space shuttle so we can take off to the moon. And the last time I checked Buran was bigger then the US Space Shuttle:P ;)

 

 

 

 

F22 is the most advanced air superiority machine today. Does that fact alone win an air war? No and you know it. So there is very little need to try to pimp on a such a grand scale.

 

Afterall I can drop a 200km cruise missle from my Su-24.

 

 

 

 

*keep in mind Im a political ally to the States, and hate USSR ;) Before anyone thinks Im some commie hater

[Guest IguanaKing]

Heh...I was actually kinda poking fun at the whole "absolutist" thing too. I can almost guarantee that any flesh and blood pilot strapping himself into a Raptor isn't going to have any absolutist illusions in his mind. He needs to be confident and aggressive enough to win, balanced with being smart enough not to die. :smilewink: Like I said earlier, who's way turns out to be better just depends on which of the opposing sides is able to make his enemy fight on his terms.

 

The US, ever since WWII, have been very much about mastering expeditionary warfare. Their opposition has been very much about dealing with enemies on a local level in a battle of attrition and will-power. That's why US and Russian aircraft are so different, they were designed with very different strategies in mind. :D

 

BTW...a B-52 can launch an AGM-109 which has a range of 965km. I know that air superiority doesn't win a war, that's why I said the F-22 won't be alone. ;)