F-22 Raptor "sucks"

[Pilotasso]

another exercise made public:

 

http://www.f-16.net/news_article1916.html

 

heres a transcript for those skepticals to finaly learn how a 4rth gen aircraft are suposed to work:

 

 

In a very real sense, this is a preview of what is to come for forces facing the F-22. The F-15 and F-18 scored a 2:1 kill ratio against the simulated Flankers. This is not the only time that F-22s have shown their capabilities. Eight F-22s faced off against 33 F-15Cs earlier this year, and "shot down" all of the F-15Cs with no loss to itself.

 

Why does the F-22 dominate? The answer lies in the two biggest rules of air combat. The first rule is, "Speed is life." The F-22 has speed – reaching nearly 2,600 kilometers per hour, and having the ability go faster (up to 1,830 kilometers per hour) than the speed of sound without using its afterburners. It is faster than a Eurofighter, Flanker, or Rafale. It can catch its target, or get out of a situation, should that rare occasion arise.

 

The second rule is, "Lose the sight, lose the fight." The F-22 is very capable of making an opponent "lose sight" of it – often through its stealth features that cause enemy radars to perform poorly when looking for an F-22. This means the F-22 will "see" its opponent far sooner than it will be seen itself. In aerial combat, 80 percent of those planes killed in air-to-air combat never knew the opponent that killed them was there.

 

In a very real sense, the F-22 is the superfighter of the 21st Century. The F-22 is emerging as a long-range fighter (with a range of over 3200 kilometers), capable of fighting when outnumbered 4 to 1 (or more), and it also has significant edges in the areas of speed and stealth. The F-22 is proving to be a very reliable plane (with less than 7 percent of sorties being aborted). Some problems have emerged as the F-22 joins the operational force, most notably with a titanium boom on the first 80 planes, but these problems are being fixed. The F-22's high speed and performance also gives weapons like the AMRAAM and JDAM much more range than from the F-15E or F-16.

 

The F-22's biggest weakness seems to be its price tag ($361 million per plane*). But it is quickly proving it is capable of clearing the skies against as many as eight opponents per F-22. When you consider that the Eurofighter costs $58 million per plane, and the Rafale pushes $66 million, while the F-35C pushes $61 million, the F-22 isn't that bad, particularly when two F-22s at $274 million** can easily wipe out eight Eurofighters at $464 million.

 

While the U.S. Air Force may be engaging in some puffery when it comes to describing the F-22, the track record of new American combat aircraft over the last few decades, indicates that the F-22 is, indeed, an impressive combat aircraft. But, as with any warplane, it won't be until the aircraft actually experiences combat, that it's reputation can be established as more than just potential. – Harold C. Hutchison

 

 

Although I would disagree killing the Eurofighter would be as easy as the author says.

[GGTharos]

Nice one Pilotasso :D

[hitman]

It will be a long time before the F-22 sees any kind of action, but as soon as its almost bug-free, the USAF should start putting some F-15's in mothballs.

[Force_Feedback]

Will the F-22 fly 3000km with supercruise? No Will the F-22 have no support at all? No Will the F-22 ever be used against a 'capable' enemy? No Will the F-22 always dominate the skies? No Will the F-22 be invincible and invisible? No Will SAMs be afraid of the F-22? No Will the F-22 ever justify its price tag? No

 

JSF all the way, no need for big, firmly shutting canopies ;) , no, just use a manual operated one.

The touch screens are worrying me, as most pilots fly the jet with gloves, and the buttons would be massive in order to be able to work precise. Until then, the F-15 and F-18 are more than capable of shooting down Mig-21s and L-39s and all the Chinese copies.

[Pilotasso]

3000Km is way better than the average 1000km for the most of other types at much slower speeds. And it needs no suport, thats one reason for stealth (not invisibility).

[NEODARK]

I love F-16.net, great interview with General Chuck Yeager

 

Give the F22 to Yager, and I'm sure he'll piss and moan as well lol..

[*Rage*]

80 percent of those planes killed in air-to-air combat never knew the opponent that killed them was there.

 

This is in reference to WW2. I imagine in more recent conflicts the splashed pilots often knew they were being targetted

[Fufunka]

Well, russians probably mastered (recent undetected trespass over US airspace) the "plasma stealth" capability for their current gen of aircrafts and the pricetag was certainly lower than the whole F22 project. Also the backbone of Chinese airforce is not Mig21 at least by 2015. Some statistics have pretty old data like this one:

http://www.milnet.com/Chinese-and-Terrorism.html#af

 

The beauty of Russian/Chinese/Indian defence industry is that when they have to compete $ against $ it is in reality quite different. For political reasons US defense industry is scatered all over the 50 states so price per volume is giant, every stupid knob costs $1000 you know the story. The US defense contractor and his employees have Porsches and McMansions, their "eastern" counterparts have a flat, eurosized car and that's it.. That's why Russians were able to keep up for almost 40 years in the cold war race - obviously at a great cost in their consumer sector as well but that's another story..

[Pilotasso]

This is in reference to WW2. I imagine in more recent conflicts the splashed pilots often knew they were being targetted

^^^^I didnt say that, the author of the news textx did :D

 

Well, russians probably mastered the "plasma stealth" capability for their current gen of aircrafts and the pricetag for certainly lower than the whole F22 project. Also the backbone of Chinese airforce is not Mig21..

 

oh noes!!! Look what you have done to my thread! :P

[SVK_Fox]

when I am reding article like this I feel another super propaganda, so funny to read this article, please guys think!!!!!! :megalol:

[Force_Feedback]

The US defense contractor and his employees have Porsches and McMansions, their "eastern" counterparts have a flat, eurosized car and that's it.. That's why Russians were able to keep up for almost 40 years in the cold war race - obviously at a great cost in their consumer sector as well but that's another story..

 

Errm, That's not true, US defense contractors have to pay taxes, Russians either evade them or are working for the state, then steal something to build their own villas (ok, not villas, giant villa compunds, with double fences and that kind of stuff). It's just that the average guy/girl that assembles the plane will get $150 a month.

 

Care to comment on the incursions? I know they have some great stealth U©AVs, but no manned planes in service are stealth, except the su-34, which is very low observative, but not really stealth.

 

And who needs planes when you invest in ICBMs?

[oxking]

I Hate probaganda...

So i only belive total serious documentries:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdcybHrBmPE :D

[Shaman]

Errm, That's not true, US defense contractors have to pay taxes, Russians either evade them or are working for the state, then steal something to build their own villas (ok, not villas, giant villa compunds, with double fences and that kind of stuff). It's just that the average guy/girl that assembles the plane will get $150 a month.

 

Care to comment on the incursions? I know they have some great stealth U©AVs, but no manned planes in service are stealth, except the su-34, which is very low observative, but not really stealth.

 

And who needs planes when you invest in ICBMs?

You pretty much have no idea how things worked in eastern block during communism.

[GGTharos]

Well, russians probably mastered (recent undetected trespass over US airspace) the "plasma stealth" capability for their current gen of aircrafts and the pricetag was certainly lower than the whole F22 project.

:lol:

 

No one has mastered plasma anything ... except maybe plasma incinerators. ;)

 

As for the payment their people received, and the USSR 'keeping up' with anything?

Their stuff was 10-20 years BEHIND when the Cold War ended.

[dynamocl]

Anyone else getting tired of these threads (I know I know, dont post or read in them etc). But isn't there an "F22 ROXXX" forum somewhere? Perhaps you guys should create one, then you can impress everyone with your inside knowledge of the F22.

 

 

Perhaps I need more coffee, or just watch the black shark vid again.

 

 

EDIT:

Err, what light source do you use at work? Strip lighting/flourescent tubes? That is plasma, so I think plasma has been mastered, just not in the sci fi sense you guys think of.

[Force_Feedback]

You pretty much have no idea how things worked in eastern block during communism.

 

Errm, I'm talking about now. (1992-2006)

 

 

That Eurofighter is one hell of a plane, and those Jihadist missiles are sure crap, barely having a 1:1 thrust ratio :megalol: And the Eurofighter climbs away with a crapload of fueltanks and missiles.

[Shaman]

Errm, I'm talking about now. (1992-2006)

Oh. Sorry for missunderstanding. I'm returning your honor now :)

[Pilotasso]

:lol:

 

No one has mastered plasma anything ... except maybe plasma incinerators. ;)

 

As for the payment their people received, and the USSR 'keeping up' with anything?

Their stuff was 10-20 years BEHIND when the Cold War ended.

 

The russians had a comprehensive array of new versions of the Mig-29's and Su-27/3* wich would at least put them in parity with most aircraft in the west but they never had the money to realize those plans even in late USSR times. And the upgrades were repeatedly being dragged in time untill there was no longer the resources to even keep research up to date anymore.

 

All in all the current proposed variants of the Su-30 and the 35/37 are either cancelled or somewhat dated. The mainstay of operational aircraft in russia is average at best, with pilot training realy poor for most efectives. The indians are in better shape with pilot training and their Su-30's but then those are westernized versions of 10 year old upgrade concept of the basic Su-27. The russians not only dont want them for political reasons as well as technical, after all once the western industries are involved half the west knows what makes those flankers tick.

[HungaroJET]

...but do not forget the F-23

 

this discussion is pretty old but useful

 

http://www.aeroworldnet.com/aid/messages/25/595.html?SundayApril2120020509pm

 

&

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-23.htm

[rattler]

Ef2000

 

Don't think for one minute the F-22 would have an easy time with an Ef2000. I think I would put my money on the Ef2000 if I were you. Read what it can do and has been doing. The EF2000 can even engage in Combat with the Pilot unconsious. Try that in a F-22 and see where you end up. F -22 very nice plane but don't think for one second it can't be out flown. Oh can it sustain a 9G turn. NO. Don't blow the horn to much on the F-22 it's just getting it's tail feather wet yet. You should have watched the TV program on current A/C including the F-22. EF2000 not to shabby and operational for some time. I would'nt want to try and best one. Don't want to belittle the F-22 it is a VERY capable A/C and would not want to face on it either. I just want to point out it's not the be all and end all in the AIR as you would think.Aircraft still have to be flown by Pilots and as it stands at present I would say it's their skills that would make the difference not what they are sitting in. In regards to the EF2000 and F-22 that is or any other Country that has an A/C with similar abilities. Pilots still rain for now!!!!!

[britgliderpilot]

Errm, I'm talking about now. (1992-2006)

 

 

That Eurofighter is one hell of a plane, and those Jihadist missiles are sure crap, barely having a 1:1 thrust ratio :megalol: And the Eurofighter climbs away with a crapload of fueltanks and missiles.

 

 

PH34R teh Behind Enemy Lines missile-chase-scene!!!!!

[Cobra360]

The EF2000 can even engage in Combat with the Pilot unconsious. Try that in a F-22 and see where you end up. F -22 very nice plane but don't think for one second it can't be out flown. Oh can it sustain a 9G turn. NO. Don't blow the horn to much on the F-22 it's just getting it's tail feather wet yet.

 

Please don't tell me you have just typed that the F-22 cannot sustain a 9G turn!:megalol:

 

Since when did the Typhoon get A.I that will let it engage a target all by itself?:doh:

 

Any aircraft can engage in combat with the pilot unconsious, all it has to do is be targeted and fired at by the enemy.:smartass:

[britgliderpilot]

Don't think for one minute the F-22 would have an easy time with an Ef2000. I think I would put my money on the Ef2000 if I were you. Read what it can do and has been doing. The EF2000 can even engage in Combat with the Pilot unconsious. Try that in a F-22 and see where you end up. F -22 very nice plane but don't think for one second it can't be out flown. Oh can it sustain a 9G turn. NO. Don't blow the horn to much on the F-22 it's just getting it's tail feather wet yet. You should have watched the TV program on current A/C including the F-22. EF2000 not to shabby and operational for some time. I would'nt want to try and best one. Don't want to belittle the F-22 it is a VERY capable A/C and would not want to face on it either. I just want to point out it's not the be all and end all in the AIR as you would think.Aircraft still have to be flown by Pilots and as it stands at present I would say it's their skills that would make the difference not what they are sitting in. In regards to the EF2000 and F-22 that is or any other Country that has an A/C with similar abilities. Pilots still rain for now!!!!!

 

 

You're kind of missing the point.

 

The POINT is that the F-22 waltzes into combat with a variety of expensive sensors going, very quietly, as part of a huge integrated system picking up and distributing information. It has an enormous amount of data available to it, can see the enemy long before the enemy can see it, and by the time the AMRAAM goes active you've effectively lost the fight.

 

Sneaking up on a Raptor operated by the Giant USAF War Machine is so unlikely as to be almost impossible.

 

 

The Typhoon (get the name right :P) does something similar - but the Raptor does it slightly better. Typhoon doesn't have AESA yet, it doesn't have TVC at all, it's not as low an RCS . . . . it'll still have much the same effect as the Raptor on anything currently out there, but in direct competition against a Raptor (god forbid that should ever happen) . . . . it is GOING to lose.

 

No pilot can defeat an enemy that he Just Can't Tell Is There.

[Cobra360]

TVC is planned for future Typhoon versions after T3. They have been in development and testing in Spain for a few years now.

[britgliderpilot]

TVC is planned for future Typhoon versions after T3. They have been in development and testing in Spain for a few years now.

 

Hmmn, not something I'd heard about.

 

 

Don't tell me - it's something else the UK MoD isn't going to buy in order to save money, right? :P