How much better is Rift than Vive for DCS World?

[Dav IRL]

No comment. Just check this comparison between 4 different VR today.

You need to have in mind this is not represent individual impression when you use one of tham but represent accurate and exact SDE difference between them because it is record under same condition with same camera.

 

 

Vive and CV1 have exact same displays only CV1 is dealing with SDE with plastic layes over the display which blurring picture little bit more but that blur reducing SDE as well. compare this 4 displays Vive/CV1 have 460PPI, Deepoon E3 have 540PPI and Pimax have 807PPI. PPI and it is only responsible for SDE.

 

All this displays have its pro's and con's and it is on user and his expectation which one he will prefer most.

 

VR is more depend on impression than on technical characteristics and impression is made by everything not just display or positional tracking and controllers.

 

They are all terrible lol!

[metzger]

As I said, it is my and many others opinion too who have tested DCS with VR at me.

 

 

 

Good. As we all have different expectations and requirements.

 

 

 

As you can find, I stated the same thing as the VR is the thing to feel to be in the cockpit. But even now currently there is the problem that the VR mouse is locked to center of viewpoint, instead a 1/3 of the bottom part, meaning it is impossible to click every function below the knee line. So example in the A-10C operating the radio channels on left or ILS on right becomes difficult or impossible at those positions and to aft. And it is annoying as you can't so easily look there as you are so ackward position and then you just enjoy that you can grab the VR and pull it downwards etc.

But everything that happens outside of the cockpit, that is another story.

 

 

 

That is the thing. You don't have situational awareness that is even close to realism! You can't spot targets, you can't even spot the smoking and burning targets easily from couple kilometer distance! The A-10C gun sight is so big that it blocks the ground units at 0.5nm (1km) distance that you have difficulties to aim accurately (at least good thing is that gun has the spread unlike Su-25 that doesn't, so your change to hit with the GAU are higher). This is with DP values from 1.0 to 2.0 and it is difficult to find what works across the world outside of the cockpit.

 

And it as well touches to cockpit, as you can't glance or look the most cockpit instruments from normal seating as textures and all are too fuzzy (even if set all to high) and requires third party texture packs etc to fix all problems, ones that will enlarge texts and make some things easier to read, but still requirement to lean forward toward the panels and switches is nothing else than painful experience to learn an aircraft.

 

It is like having a 1-1.5 diopters wrong set glasses and you feel old even if you don't need glasses to read things.

 

 

 

 

 

It is not "in-game" advantage but more realistic by the spotting, situational awareness and simply operation capability of the aircraft as you can see things by a glance in a cockpit and it is nicer to see the cockpit textures etc fidelity.

 

I enjoy some things about the VR, but it is frustrating many times as I am spending far more head down time than without. As you can't read things (like reading what does the Su-25 weapons status panel say, K, 1/2 or a 1/4 and it is just frustrating in some moments when you just can't lean forward enough to read.

 

The VR is yet there. We can't say "Okay boys... No need to increase the resolution or FOV" as there are already HMD on market that has more clarity and are just nicer to use and you can actually start reading the cockpit and start to spot objects at grounds.

 

When we get at least 6K VR, meaning at least 4K per eye. and we get the 210 degree FOV to cover the 75% of the 180 degree FOV (current ones are more like a 55 degree at the moment, together around 110 degree) we start to see improvements for the immersion and the readability.

When we get 5K per eye, it will be then at the very acceptable level. But that needs maybe 10 years. And before that VR might very well be minority like LP or even CD sales.

 

We just need better hardware than Oculus Rift or HTC Vive offers at the moment. If you want to get great experience on those systems, ED should redo all the textures and many 3D cockpits in every aircraft and enlarge all, simplify them and adjust colors and contrast so they are as readable as on 2D.

 

Yeah, displays and trackir etc doesn't bring the immersion of sitting in a cockpit. But heck it will increase the situational awareness and operation capability to more realistic levels.

 

I even today fly every change I get with the VR (Rift) in DCS, but it is a not so pleasant in many situations as the resolution is just too small and it is too narrow FOV.

 

The clarity of the Rift vs Vive was surprising one, as I thought that Vive would have been much much better or even clearly better.

 

Free flying, acrobatics (sight seeing) and just enjoyment of the flying is totally own kind in the VR. But for a combat (even in single player) it ain't there yet if you can't use just the targeting systems to do the aiming.

You wrote a lot of bs (not black shark) here which are too obvious for people who has tried VR. The first was the locked mouse. You can if you want unlock it and place whenever you want. Another one was about the A10. I have finished 4-5 A10 campaigns and never had an issue with aiming, can hit an apc with a single rocket. Reading the instruments is no problem at all even engine gauges which are the smallest and never used 3rd party textures or labels.

Another BS was monitor trackir and realism - yea its very realistic how you turn your head to check 6 and 20 times zooming... Right. The same goes for fov and SA...

Anyway if you want use a 14 crt and claim it is the best, who cares ? Just dont speak crap and don't fool people about thinks you obviously haven't tried.

 

Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk

[SDsc0rch]

damn fri13.. he showed you!lol

[dburne]

I thought this was a Rift versus Vive discussion, rather than a VR versus monitor discussion LOL.

 

I must really be missing something here. Speaking of which, one thing I do not miss - gaming on my monitor bwaha.

Edited August 10, 2017 by dburne

[FragBum]

No comment. Just check this comparison between 4 different VR today.

You need to have in mind this is not represent individual impression when you use one of tham but represent accurate and exact SDE difference between them because it is record under same condition with same camera.

 

 

Vive and CV1 have exact same displays only CV1 is dealing with SDE with plastic layes over the display which blurring picture little bit more but that blur reducing SDE as well. compare this 4 displays Vive/CV1 have 460PPI, Deepoon E3 have 540PPI and Pimax have 807PPI. PPI and it is only responsible for SDE.

 

All this displays have its pro's and con's and it is on user and his expectation which one he will prefer most.

 

VR is more depend on impression than on technical characteristics and impression is made by everything not just display or positional tracking and controllers.

 

 

To me the way that image appears with such high amounts of colour fringing around Lucky in no way matches the image resolution I get with my Rift in DCS, it would have gone straight back for a refund if that's what it was.

 

I can not speak for Vive as I don't have access to one however, if after careful adjustment you get an image anything like that and not reasonably well defined at least in the prime viewing area your Rift is not adjusted correctly.

 

In DCS I do not get quite as good rendering as I do on the Oculus home page (remember when they had the Enterprise fly over, not bad hey) but DCS is still pretty good. I have been looking at the Normandy map flying low in Gazelle and close up the map is quite detailed and clear and that water in the harbours is getting close to Oculus home page rendering.

 

No Flame War intended! Just expressing my opinion and my experience with Rift. :thumbup:

[mrwell]

Lol, I laugh about how they represent the Vive in that video. I've never seen that black scroll in mine and I don't see the pixels unless I concentrate on seeing them. It is obviously an interested view...

This is just another Microsoft vs Apple crap kind of discussion IMHO.

Each one has its pros and cons. For someone the Vive would be good and for others the Rift. That's all. Don't try to bring people to your side. It is boring.

Cheers

[Lensman]

Lol, I laugh about how they represent the Vive in that video. I've never seen that black scroll in mine and I don't see the pixels unless I concentrate on seeing them. It is obviously an interested view...

This is just another Microsoft vs Apple crap kind of discussion IMHO.

Each one has its pros and cons. For someone the Vive would be good and for others the Rift. That's all. Don't try to bring people to your side. It is boring.

Cheers

 

+1

Sticking a camera into a HMD is not going to give a good comparison of the real experience. There will be moire interference patterns generated from the digital capture anyway.

[dburne]

To me the way that image appears with such high amounts of colour fringing around Lucky in no way matches the image resolution I get with my Rift in DCS, it would have gone straight back for a refund if that's what it was.

 

 

Agree,

 

If I had of seen those pics before purchasing my Rift back in January, and thought they were actually representative of what the image would look like, I might have just not purchased it.

 

There is no way the image I see in my Rift looks quite like that, and I doubt Vive does either. If it did, I certainly would not have continuing gaming with it like I have.

 

I think the thing is, when one is focused on the actual image which is further out, you just not notice the SDE all that much. Yeah I can focus on the SDE instead and see it maybe in a more pronounced way, but when focused on the image of the game I am playing I hardly even notice it at all, especially with certain backgrounds.

 

Resolution is by far a more noticeable thing than SDE is to me, especially looking out at far distances or trying to ID a plane. But even that will not slow down my use of the Rift, the immersion of it all is just too incredible.

In fact, I log many more hours now in flying than previously because of VR.

 

But all of it is truly an individual preference. I think the majority that get VR love it and stay with it, but a small few just cannot accept it in this current generation and prefer the higher resolution monitors.

 

As far as Rift versus Vive, they really are just about equal now.

 

The general consensus seems to be the image clarity is slightly better in Rift.

Ability to do large room scale is better in the Vive.

Rift currently has significant price advantage.

Edited August 11, 2017 by dburne

[FragBum]

Agree,

 

If I had of seen those pics before purchasing my Rift back in January, and thought they were actually representative of what the image would look like, I might have just not purchased it.

 

There is no way the image I see in my Rift looks quite like that, and I doubt Vive does either. If it did, I certainly would not have continuing gaming with it like I have.

 

I think the thing is, when one is focused on the actual image which is further out, you just not notice the SDE all that much. Yeah I can focus on the SDE instead and see it maybe in a more pronounced way, but when focused on the image of the game I am playing I hardly even notice it at all, especially with certain backgrounds.

 

Resolution is by far a more noticeable thing than SDE is to me, especially looking out at far distances or trying to ID a plane. But even that will not slow down my use of the Rift, the immersion of it all is just too incredible.

In fact, I log many more hours now in flying than previously because of VR.

 

But all of it is truly an individual preference. I think the majority that get VR love it and stay with it, but a small few just cannot accept it in this current generation and prefer the higher resolution monitors.

 

As far as Rift versus Vive, they really are just about equal now.

 

The general consensus seems to be the image clarity is slightly better in Rift.

Ability to do large room scale is better in the Vive.

Rift currently has significant price advantage.

 

This people, I guess alignment of the optics to eyeballs is the trick. SDE (Screen Door Effect") for me is both quite visible and well defined and yet not intrusive to the visual resolution of the image and the immersion. Resolution could be better well sure but for now it's more a restriction in the view angle and technologies. The fact you have a reasonable resolution that is the same wherever you look is the kicker for me.

 

As I said I don't have access to Vive but I'm sure the VR experience is just as good.

 

Oh and yes I have had Rift since Jan 17 and spend way too long flying in VR. :helpsmilie: :thumbup:

[hansangb]

You wrote a lot of bs (not black shark) here which are too obvious for people who has tried VR. The first was the locked mouse. You can if you want unlock it and place whenever you want. Another one was about the A10. I have finished 4-5 A10 campaigns and never had an issue with aiming, can hit an apc with a single rocket. Reading the instruments is no problem at all even engine gauges which are the smallest and never used 3rd party textures or labels.

Another BS was monitor trackir and realism - yea its very realistic how you turn your head to check 6 and 20 times zooming... Right. The same goes for fov and SA...

Anyway if you want use a 14 crt and claim it is the best, who cares ? Just dont speak crap and don't fool people about thinks you obviously haven't tried.

 

Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk

 

I believe he has and does fly in VR. Not be belabor the point, but picking out targets in 4K *is* easier. How realistic is 4K is up for debate. When compared to real life. We always throw up camo nets for a reason, right?

 

But I do agree that TIR+4K is garbage when it comes to spacial situational awareness. When you're trying to orient yourself to the terrain, it's very uncomfortable without VR. I don't care if it's 100" 4K monitor. It's still 2D and your brain knows it.

 

Anyway, this was all hashed out in a different thread. 4K = better visibility. VR = better immersion.

 

Everything else is in the middle and depends on if you want to rack up kills or fly.

[Fri13]

You wrote a lot of bs (not black shark) here which are too obvious for people who has tried VR. The first was the locked mouse. You can if you want unlock it and place whenever you want. Another one was about the A10. I have finished 4-5 A10 campaigns and never had an issue with aiming, can hit an apc with a single rocket. Reading the instruments is no problem at all even engine gauges which are the smallest and never used 3rd party textures or labels.

Another BS was monitor trackir and realism - yea its very realistic how you turn your head to check 6 and 20 times zooming... Right. The same goes for fov and SA...

Anyway if you want use a 14 crt and claim it is the best, who cares ? Just dont speak crap and don't fool people about thinks you obviously haven't tried.

 

Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk

Yeah... You are just passed that someone writes opinions from multiple persons trying VR and comparing to 4K.

 

You claiming that you can read every single detail in cockpits (smallest gauge in A-10) perfectly fine without leaning forward, just by a glance is already BS.

 

When no one else can see than a smudge in most aircrafts small details, you manage to see all in full details and clarity.

 

As your opinion goes, VR is already perfect and no need to improve the hardware....

 

And everyone else who has problems with spotting, seeing clearly etc are just BStters...

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

[Fri13]

I thought this was a Rift versus Vive discussion, rather than a VR versus monitor discussion LOL.

 

I must really be missing something here. Speaking of which, one thing I do not miss - gaming on my monitor bwaha.

The difference between Vive and rift is like a difference between 1080p and 720p YouTube video watched on 5"smartphone with FHD display and from a 20" distance.

 

And VR is like 720x576 on CRT. You just don't have the details that 4K display offers to begin. So all the difference between Vive and Rift is negligent.

 

When you buy a new module and you want to learn to fly it, you need to be able to read all the labels and texts in a cockpit easily and comfortable.

 

And VR makes all that far more difficult in current technological level.

 

We can be ignorant and not accept the truth that VR is far from the needed resolution and just hype it as perfection.

We can ignore that current FOV it's so narrow that you are seeing like diving mask on.

Marketed 110° is closer to 55° and marketed new 210° ones offer only a 75% of the horizontal FOV. And that starts to be nicer as immersion gets better that way.

 

The current VR level ain't perfect not anywhere near it. It is like a cheap demo for what is coming.

In few years the rift CV1 and Vive are like what rift DK1 was years back. And how many loved their resolution and other features in DCS?

 

In few models forward and many will ask that how in the name of.... Did anyone of us see to fly in DCS with current VR versions?

 

It will be like flanker 2.0 vs DCS World 2.1 when we get the resolution and FOV to required quality level.

 

 

 

 

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

[dburne]

In few years the rift CV1 and Vive are like what rift DK1 was years back. And how many loved their resolution and other features in DCS?

 

In few models forward and many will ask that how in the name of.... Did anyone of us see to fly in DCS with current VR versions?

 

It will be like flanker 2.0 vs DCS World 2.1 when we get the resolution and FOV to required quality level.

 

 

And again, how is this related to Rift versus Vive? You know the original post topic?

 

Seriously, everything you are describing is the progress of evolution in technology. We have seen it, we will continue to see it.

 

I could just as easily say, why did I buy that I-Phone 4 back when I did, rather than just waiting for what I have now - an i-Phone 6, or why did I get that when I will likely get the 8 when it is released later this year...

 

Without all of us early adaptor enthusiasts, there would not be a next generation of VR to wait for, and on and on.

 

Man, why I am even engaging - this thread has gotten so derailed from what it was originally about...

:doh:

[SkateZilla]

The Topic is Rift vs Vive,

 

NOT VR vs 4K.

 

Please Discuss the Topic as Titled,

 

Thank you/

[WindyTX]

So back to the topic. Rift is half the price, for DCS it is far superior. For roomscale Vive is great but of your interest is DCS there is no comparison and if you are not interested in DCS you are on the wrong forum.

 

I have both I have 2 DCS accounts so I can fly with colleagues sitting reserve in DFW, when they fly with me I use the Vive. Its not bad enough to make me pay another $400 but its close.

 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Fri13]

The Topic is Rift vs Vive,

 

NOT VR vs 4K.

 

Please Discuss the Topic as Titled,

 

Thank you/

In what context? A 20% improvement of A vs B HMD can be as little as 0.5% in difference to actual use when put in context.

 

A car A top speed 95kph is always faster than car B with 89kph. But both are as bad when compared to C that goes 320kph.

 

Coming from a 2D with a trackIR is the default where people come now and to understand the context how good or bad EITHER HMD is, is crucial information to understand how good A is compared to B.

 

With neither HMD you can't read nor see well... But it ain't a problem if you have always flied DCS with a 1024x768 CRT monitor as it is similar experience.

 

A man who has been blind from the birth and is given a partial vision by a modern medical capabilities, is always amazed to see something. But a man who has had normal vision suddenly loses his sight, will always remember how did he see well previously and would want to see like did.

 

I have been talking about two differencing things in VR.

 

1) VR as possibility.

2) VR as technology.

 

First will be about immersion because everything around you is blocked and you only see the screens.

It is as well about the added stereovision to get a better depth perception. As well about a 6-point tracking with 1:1 ratio without acceleration.

 

The second is about how well can you see around, how wide your FOV is. Are you looking a tiny screen in black room or a wider television at closer or is it like a movie theater with 20m canvas and sitting 5m from it.

How good contrast there is, is there a low contrast or high contrast or even a HDR that every HMD misses but many 2D displays has and it is amazing feature. How are the optics, do they blur the image or not so is the image clarity good.

 

DCS world is developed for 2D displays with high resolution and no softening or anything else.

Texture artists and 3D modelers are primarily using 2D displays. A huge difference is how much details you put to the textures and fonts, as in 2D they can look amazingly good, but in HMD terrible as you can't read.

 

So again it is that do you need to go for 100% realism of cockpits as there is nothing between human eye and the cockpit element. Or do you need to take a compromise and simplify cockpit and clarify elements with bigger fonts, increasing contrast, using simpler textures etc so you can in first place to see and so on enjoy and use the virtual cockpit.

 

HMD is today like asking a A-10C fan with a TM:WH HOTAS to go flying after years, with a stick that has three buttons and throttle and no keyboard nearby. How would the operation performance affect from such change?

 

So how well can you spot targets with rift vs vive? Little better, but just little, so little that it ain't worth the change.

So how nicely does the rift be on head compared to vive? A lot nicer, but it doesn't matter if you can't play than 1 hour.

How much nicer the wands are over touch controllers? Not better but worse, but it doesn't matter as DCS doesn't support virtual hands at the moment.

How much better tracking vive has over rift? Not better at all as vive trackers has got improved by software and it doesn't matter either as we sit in a chair and dont move past 7m distance from rift sensor to get its limits be a problem.

 

The rift is every way better than vive, but both are totally as crappy experiences when compared to 2D when it comes to spot targets in air or ground (targets like smoking hull in a desert or a MBT middle of yellow field), identify a aircraft from 300-1000m distance or see at glance how many quarters you have left in soviet aircrafts or what is the speed in hawk etc.

 

All kind a Small details that are lost because VR technology is not there yet, at level where a computer 2D monitors were 15 years ago!

 

That is the context...

The tiny differences between these two HMD are negligent when put to the context that is requirement to learn, operate and survive in these virtual aircrafts.

We can always lean forward to see better. But leaning a lot closer all the time in the virtual cockpit ain't really a realism or immersive as it just reminds "I can't see sh*t captain!"

 

Discussions can be gone without context, but that is just a marketing and hype. Some just love that they can sit inside but many want more.

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

[WindyTX]

Fri to say

 

The tiny differences between these two HMD are negligent when put to the context that is requirement to learn, operate and survive in these virtual aircrafts.

 

Is completely wrong. If someone has tried VR and decided to look at the headset available , to write them both off because you like to use a screen is a waste of the OP's time. There is a significant diffference between the 2 and the Rift wins by a significant margin especially with respect to DCS.

 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[dburne]

There is a significant diffference between the 2 and the Rift wins by a significant margin especially with respect to DCS.

 

The only area the Vive currently has an advantage in, is in very large room scale. However the percentage of VR gamers that require that is quite small. Except maybe in USB port requirements, the Vive's tracking sensor's only need USB 2.0 ports, whereas the Rift for optimal performance require good USB 3.0 ports - and it can be persnickety on the type of ports as well. But when it is working good, man is it ever so smooth. Mine has been since the day I got it.

 

Which really brings it down more to price. I am not sure even those that want quite large room scale are going to spend all the extra dollars that the Vive currently costs over the Rift. The Rift handles pretty good size room scale quite fine as it is, and they have made a lot of progress supporting 3 sensors for even better. And some folks even run with 4 to get that very large room scale.

 

A few months ago when things were priced the same, I would encourage folks to read up all they could on the differences between the two before making a decision. Now though with the pricing as it is, I am saying go Rift hands down. Plus Oculus offers some very good games through the Oculus Store, that goes through certain quality checks before even being allowed to be offered there. Not too mention all the millions of dollars they are spending funding some big name titles to help get the VR industry going.