Warthog + Extension: Responsiveness and Force Required

[Bearfoot]

Those of you with the TMW an extension: how responsive is it? How much force is required to move the stick? E.g., can you just apply slight pressure with thumb and forefinger to move it around? Or does it require a firmer grip.

 

E.g., have a look here at how the Komodo stick responds with very gentle pressures:

 

 

Is this possible with the TMW + extension without removing/modifying the springs?

[BIGNEWY]

I have a 10" extension, I did use it without modifying the springs for a while but I wanted more force so have customised mine and added springs on the outside.

[cichlidfan]

Depends on the length of the extension. If it is long enough the stick will fall over on it's own.

[some1]

Even the shortest extension reduces the forces needed to move the stick considerably.

[NeilWillis]

30cm no springs, light touch and I find that as long as you leave the stick in the upright position, it doesn't flop about.

 

When flying, I much much prefer to have it without a strong centring force. Accurate flying - like AAR is much more precise with the long extension. Go for it, try it for yourself, and remember, you can always unscrew the extension if you don't get along with it. I suspect however you'll wonder how you ever managed without it!

[Sporg]

Those of you with the TMW an extension: how responsive is it? How much force is required to move the stick? E.g., can you just apply slight pressure with thumb and forefinger to move it around? Or does it require a firmer grip.

 

E.g., have a look here at how the Komodo stick responds with very gentle pressures:

 

 

Is this possible with the TMW + extension without removing/modifying the springs?

 

There's a video here giving an idea of the change in spring force with default length versus 11 cm and 15 cm extensions:

 

 

I purchased the 15 cm extension, and it is very lightweight with aluminium fittings and carbon tube extension.

 

It made a world of difference for me for precision flying, especially hovering and low level flight in helicopters.

For me the standard spring force is fine when using the extension.

 

It only requires slight force, except around the dead centre, where it requires a little more force.

But can easily be moved using thumb and forefinger alone.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Sporg

[hansangb]

Sporg,

So no hassles with this? I'm looking at this (now) or Sahaj's extension. The latter is all aluminum but much more expensive.

[westr]

It made a massive difference to the feel for me. The precision is Much easier to attain. It's also easier to turn aircraft like the mustang on the edge but not over pulling and going into a snap roll. Bought a 20cm extension. Could never go back now, love it.

 

^^ I got mine from Sahaj's site.

[Sporg]

Sporg,

So no hassles with this? I'm looking at this (now) or Sahaj's extension. The latter is all aluminum but much more expensive.

Nu hassles what so ever.

 

It came with a good cable, and even an Allen key for the small screws holding the carbon tube.

 

I was out on a leap myself, but decided to try it.

 

I am impressed by the quality actually:

The aluminium fittings looks and feels very well manufactured, and they have a very snug fit with the carbon tube, so no wobble at all.

And of course, the fittings fit the WT threads perfectly as well.

 

If you decide to purchase, you will have to contact the seller directly.

He had to stop selling through AliExpress due to an excessive increase in their fees.

His sales page on AliExpress is here:

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/FGC-Extension-Long-version-for-Thrustmaster-HOTAS-Warthog-Cougar-Joystick/32326324446.html

Edited June 4, 2016 by Sporg

[dburne]

It made a massive difference to the feel for me. The precision is Much easier to attain. It's also easier to turn aircraft like the mustang on the edge but not over pulling and going into a snap roll. Bought a 20cm extension. Could never go back now, love it.

 

^^ I got mine from Sahaj's site.

 

Agree with this - I am running the 7.5cm from Sahaj and absolutely love it, made a big difference in my KA-50 flying.

[westr]

Agree with this - I am running the 7.5cm from Sahaj and absolutely love it, made a big difference in my KA-50 flying.

 

Yes. That's the other thing as well. It makes a huge difference to keeping helicopters under nice control In my opinion.

[Bearfoot]

Thanks for the insight, all.

 

I have neither the TMW or the extension now, so cannot actually try it out.

 

I have just got budget approval from the Supreme Commander-in-Chief for a stick upgrade (from the X-55), and am trying to decide between the TMW+extension or the as yet unknown-with-no-clear-release-date-or-price VKB Gunfighter Pro.

 

So I need to make the decision sight unseen and untested, and am relying completely on the judgement, experience, and helpfulness of this community to make the decision!

 

[p.s. I fly mostly helos, so I guess the gold standard would be the Komodo. But that is way beyond anything I can justify let alone the C-in-C.]

[aaron886]

Thanks for the insight, all.

 

I have neither the TMW or the extension now, so cannot actually try it out.

 

I have just got budget approval from the Supreme Commander-in-Chief for a stick upgrade (from the X-55), and am trying to decide between the TMW+extension or the as yet unknown-with-no-clear-release-date-or-price VKB Gunfighter Pro.

 

So I need to make the decision sight unseen and untested, and am relying completely on the judgement, experience, and helpfulness of this community to make the decision!

 

[p.s. I fly mostly helos, so I guess the gold standard would be the Komodo. But that is way beyond anything I can justify let alone the C-in-C.]

 

The VKB sticks have light years better internal mechanism, but unfortunately they will never match the immediate upgrade that the warthog brings to your whole HOTAS. Having a VKB stick with crappy Saitek throttle would be like wearing an Armani suit with $2 flip-flops

[Bearfoot]

The VKB sticks have light years better internal mechanism, but unfortunately they will never match the immediate upgrade that the warthog brings to your whole HOTAS. Having a VKB stick with crappy Saitek throttle would be like wearing an Armani suit with $2 flip-flops

 

Thanks. The X-55 throttle is, TBH, fine enough. The X-55 line has taken a knocking due to horrendous QA, but individual units that work well, well, work well. It's plastic and cheap and may not as long, but as long as they work, they work fine. The biggest problem with the throttle is ghosting, which has not occurred in a long time. Either way, I am going to hang on to the throttle till I can afford or mod-up a collective control.

 

Also, for the record, I hate suits and love flip-flops, though hiking boots are more my style ;)

 

But, back to the matter at hand: are you saying the VKB has better internals than the TMW?

[aaron886]

Absolutely. The Warthog's "ball and socket" mechanism is atrocious. It's an inexcusably bad design choice, but the engineers at TM are interested in keeping costs down, not making the most precise movement. It's very easy to use a cheap, accurate, Hall sensor and then claim that your stick is accurate, but honestly none of the sensor precision matters if you deal with friction problems. Unless you get a one in a million unit that is smoother than the rest, you will not be able to make small, precise adjustments. I have tried the full disassembly, polishing, and re-greasing, and I still have problems with my Warthog.

 

The other ugly side of TM's chosen mechanic is a bad force gradient. The strongest centering forces are experienced just as the stick is moved from center, and there is no perceptible increase in force required as the stick is deflected further. This means your movements about center are going to be too coarse and will not result in precise flying. The ideal profile is a light but noticeable center, with near-linearly increasing stick force required as the stick is deflected. It makes sense that a desired increase in performance should require an increase in pilot effort. (This is how real airplanes are designed.)

 

Saitek's sticks have similarly bad design, using a "spring and plate" design that results in similar problems. (Although not as robust as TM's Warthog.) Both Saitek and the TM use a single vertical helical spring not aligned with any control axis. This will always result in a poor force distribution. In the good 'ol days, everyone made their stick with two springs, one for each axis.

 

VKB, on the other hand, uses a "cam and roller" design that produces smooth increases in tension, with a noticeable but unobtrusive center. This, in my opinion, is your holy grail of joystick mechanisms. The cam surface can be cut however is needed to provide the desired tension gradient and account for nonlinear strain applied by the spring. The ball bearing rollers ensure that friction is never a problem.

 

The only issue here is that it's so smooth, that sometimes when built at large scales it can result in natural oscillating tendency that can cause pilot-induced oscillation. In a desktop joystick? No problem.

 

Slaw also uses cam and roller designs to produce what are unarguably the best simulator rudder pedals out there. I just got my pair of RX Vipers, and they are incredible. You can see the main axis cam quite clearly here: https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/12474033_462686760596334_578325387947551813_o.jpg and a toebrake cam here: https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/12829384_456226454575698_304441426036835786_o.jpg. To get the ideal performance from these pedals, he leaves the option to mount a motorcycle steering damper to absorb springy oscillations. Springs being what they are, it's just the natural consequence of having near-frictionless movement.

 

I can go on and on obviously, but the short answer is... ultimate setup would be a VKB joystick, Slaw Device rudder pedals, and the HOTAS Warthog throttle (until something without sloppy plastic arms comes up.)

[hansangb]

I'd put up MFGs againsit anything out there as well, with added benefit of being able to buy it after a few months wait.

 

Thanks everyone, I'll try the carbon tube one first. Although the all-black one from Sahaj's site looks tempting! :)

[Bearfoot]

Thanks for the detailed response.

 

I would be happy holding off till the VKB Gunfighter becomes available if I could get a reasonably certain release date from them! Last I heard was end of summer ...

 

For the rudder upgrade, I am considering the VKB http://www.gostratojet.com/TRudder4Pedals/index.html

[aaron886]

I hear ya, I'm waiting for word, too. Those VKB pedals look really nice, just have to decide if you need toebrakes. (I know I couldn't go without them, but honestly in most modern flight sims you don't need differential braking.)

 

@hansangb - I've never owned MFGs but I know everyone likes them. They're not Slaw but they're solid and well-priced!

[Sokol1_br]

Having a VKB stick with crappy Saitek throttle would be like wearing an Armani suit with $2 flip-flops

 

An why should by used a Saitek throttle?

 

Warthog throttle can be purchased standalone.

 

To not say that most people that will buy Gunfighter already have Cougar/Warthog, due price range that this model will be sold, their differential is the "next gen" gimbal.

 

Gunfighter will accept Cougar grips for ones that mind with A-10 grip look and "many buttons". ;)

 

And that "Armani" in some way looks more a "English fake collar" - if that phrase makes any sense. :D

[Bearfoot]

due price range that this model will be sold

 

Do we have an idea of the price range of the Gunfighter?

 

And a more precise release date (closer to August or closer to December)?

[Sokol1_br]

Guesses on (IL-2) Russian forum say that Gunfighter will cost around 300$ - based on 250$ announced for Gladiator PRO with the same "Next Gen" gimbal - but with the plastic KG-12 grip* (from Gladiator), as Gunfighter base is in metal (looks aluminium and not "door knob" metal :D ), their USB controller is in separated metal box - the "Black Box" - as part of modular concept.

 

* The metal KG-12 grip only is planed to be sold - in Russia market (for USA the price is dictated by Stratojet) - for around 190$.

 

- This grip will be cast in aluminum, the switches are Japanese Omron, the trigger have sliding bearing... Imagine how will cost a ("metal is that is real") F-18 grip with VKB (planed) quality... :music_whistling:

Edited June 5, 2016 by Sokol1_br

[Bearfoot]

Guesses on (IL-2) Russian forum say that Gunfighter will cost around 300$ - based on 250$ announced for Gladiator PRO with the same "Next Gen" gimbal - but with the plastic KG-12 grip* (from Gladiator), as Gunfighter base is in metal (looks aluminium and not "door knob" metal :D ), their USB controller is in separated metal box - the "Black Box" - as part of modular concept.

 

* The metal KG-12 grip only is planed to be sold - in Russia market (for USA the price is dictated by Stratojet) - for around 190$.

 

- This grip will be cast in aluminum, the switches are Japanese Omron, the trigger have sliding bearing... Imagine how will cost a ("metal is that is real") F-18 grip with VKB (planed) quality... :music_whistling:

 

So is the only difference between the Gladiator Pro and the Gunfighter the exchangeable grip?

 

And the only difference between the Gunfighter Pro and Gunfighter the extension?

 

Any rumors of a release month, if not date?

[Sokol1_br]

Gladiator PRO is a improved version of "entry-level" Gladiator desktop joystick, through use of all metal and bearings "Next Gen" gimbal - and due this lost the "twist rudder" of Gladiator.

 

Gunfighter was designed as all metal joystick - minus grip - for use 20 cm extension, but can be used as desktop joystick without extension and soft springs/CAM profile, they will come with more than one set.

 

Both can use Cougar, Warthog grips with optional adapter and (IMO) in theory Tm F22PRO/F16FLCS and Cobra M5 grips with some DIY as they use the same kind of CD4021 based Shift Register for handle buttons/HATS.

 

Gladiator PRO can use extension, but VKB don't advise this due his base be in plastic - projected for desktop use - subject to flex and deform under heave forces - at least with VKB 20 cm extension.

 

In their site they have only Gunfighter PRO version, that have as optional extension, Warthog adapter, KG-12 metal grip.

 

Gunfighter difficult will be available before Q4 2016, as all posterior manufacturing now depends on Gladiator market success, that is delayed around 6 mounts to hit the market.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Sokol1_br

[Bearfoot]

Gladiator PRO is a improved version of "entry-level" Gladiator desktop joystick, through use of all metal and bearings "Next Gen" gimbal - and due this lost the "twist rudder" of Gladiator.

 

Gunfighter was designed as all metal joystick - minus grip - for use 20 cm extension, but can be used as desktop joystick without extension and soft springs/CAM profile, they will come with more than one set.

 

Both can use Cougar, Warthog grips with optional adapter and (IMO) in theory Tm F22PRO/F16FLCS and Cobra M5 grips with some DIY as they use the same kind of CD4021 based Shift Register for handle buttons/HATS.

 

Gladiator PRO can use extension, but VKB don't advise this due his base be in plastic - projected for desktop use - subject to flex and deform under heave forces - at least with VKB 20 cm extension.

 

In their site they have only Gunfighter PRO version, that have as optional extension, Warthog adapter, KG-12 metal grip.

 

Gunfighter difficult will be available before Q4 2016, as all posterior manufacturing now depends on Gladiator market success, that is delayed around 6 mounts to hit the market.

 

Thanks, Sokol1_br. Appreciate the information. Now the dilemma is clear: TMW + extension in a couple of weeks, or 4-6 months and possibly more wait for the Gunfighter ...????

[hansangb]

One more thing to consider. The throttle is vastly different between the two, right? And if you play A10, it truly is plug and play. Some more data points for you to ponder! :)