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[Sideswipe]

Just for shits and giggles something to do just looking around at other forums. One thread was F-14 vs F-4 maneuverability and there's some stuff I just can't wrap my head around. I didn't think the old Phantom would have a chance against the Tomcat in that area but some people out there would disagree.

 

I believe it is actually quite a bid higher than that, for the F-4E vs. the F-14A. IIRC, the old Phantom could out manuver the Tomcat up to about 23,000'. That is for a turning and burning fight. Anything above that, the 'Cat had the old jet.

 

The F-4E could take some 10.5 instant "G"s, and 7.5 "G"s sustained. The F-14A could take 8.75 instant "G"s, and 7.75 sustained "G"s

 

I find that hard to believe, especially the last couple lines. What do you fine gentlemen and/or ladies think?

 

http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1020087

[WinterH]

As far as I recall, maneuvrability charts of each tells a different story, and at some regimes F-14 has crazy turn rates like 28 dps. Though, I suppose those require minimum sweep. Phantom as far as recall had something like 21 dps max.

 

May be a good phantom pilot in a F-4E could have chance against a bad tomcat pilot with TF30. Just may be... But overall F-14, even the A, should beat the Phantom handily in my opinion. Whole different generation, whole different level of sophistication in both aerodynamics and avionics.

 

Small addendum : still, as a module, I'd much prefer F-4E :D.

[captain_dalan]

Just for shits and giggles something to do just looking around at other forums. One thread was F-14 vs F-4 maneuverability and there's some stuff I just can't wrap my head around. I didn't think the old Phantom would have a chance against the Tomcat in that area but some people out there would disagree.

 

 

 

I find that hard to believe, especially the last couple lines. What do you fine gentlemen and/or ladies think?

 

http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1020087

 

Wild numbers thrown from random angles without context. Typical of most people around the net. Don't take them too seriously. :)

[Danneskjold]

Don't confuse "Max Allowable" g-force with turning abilities.

 

And given equal missile loadouts, the F-4 phantom had a pretty damn good power to weight ratio vs. the F-14A. 0.79 vs. 0.79. The F-4E does have better wingloading, plus got the new slats that eliminated the adverse yaw problem, so I don't know.

[captain_dalan]

Better wing loading? Perhaps not even that.......Well, maybe fully loaded..... I definitely lacks in g over mach across the entire envelope....

[Hummingbird]

Wing loading figures are very misleading, esp. when it comes to modern fighter jets, so I'd advise anyone not to look in that direction for answers :)

 

As for the subject, the F-14 enjoys a number of key advantages that makes sure that the F-4 Phantom really doesn't even come close to it when it comes to maneuvering flight.

 

1. Lifting body design

 

Now it's no secret that most aircraft don't get all their lift only from the wings, there's also usually going to be a fair amount generated by the fuselage. However due to its lifting body design, where the entire fuselage is shaped like an airfoil that blends in with the wings (it's basically as close you're going to get to a flying wing without it being one), the F-14 really stands out when it comes to the amount of fuselage related lift it generates.

 

Infact the total effective lifting area on a Tomcat is nearly doubled (!) over the reference wing area when body lift is thrown into the equation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. Automatic variable sweep wings

 

The F-14's ability alter its overall planform via automatically adjusting wing sweep allows it to maintain a high efficiency in lift vs drag (L/D ratio) across the entire speed envelope.

 

 

3. Full span LE + TE high lift devices

 

Full span leading edge slats & trailing edge maneuvre flaps that automatically deploy during maneuvers helps the F-14 achieve the maximum amount of lift possible in any type of turning combat, or crucially when having to land on or take off from aircraft carriers.

 

 

 

 

In summary: All together these key advantages give a combat ready F-14B armed with 4x Sparrows + 4x Sidewinders a tighter turn radius than a completely clean F-16C.

 

[Darkbrotherhood7]

Wing loading figures are very misleading, esp. when it comes to modern fighter jets, so I'd advise anyone not to look in that direction for answers :)

 

As for the subject, the F-14 enjoys a number of key advantages that makes sure that the F-4 Phantom really doesn't even come close to it when it comes to maneuvering flight.

 

1. Lifting body design

 

Now it's no secret that most aircraft don't get all their lift only from the wings, there's also usually going to be a fair amount generated by the fuselage. However due to its lifting body design, where the entire fuselage is shaped like an airfoil that blends in with the wings (it's basically as close you're going to get to a flying wing without it being one), the F-14 really stands out when it comes to the amount of fuselage related lift it generates.

 

Infact the total effective lifting area on a Tomcat is nearly doubled (!) over the reference wing area when body lift is thrown into the equation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. Automatic variable sweep wings

 

The F-14's ability alter its overall planform via automatically adjusting wing sweep allows it to maintain a high efficiency in lift vs drag (L/D ratio) across the entire speed envelope.

 

 

3. Full span LE + TE high lift devices

 

Full span leading edge slats & trailing edge maneuvre flaps that automatically deploy during maneuvers helps the F-14 achieve the maximum amount of lift possible in any type of turning combat, or crucially when having to land on or take off from aircraft carriers.

 

 

 

 

In summary: All together these key advantages give a combat ready F-14B armed with 4x Sparrows + 4x Sidewinders a tighter turn radius than a completely clean F-16C.

 

 

Nice post, Hummingbird. You gave some light to this thread!:)

I'm just not sure about the F-16 x F-14B turn radius. I mean, sounds weird to me, but you may be right.

 

F-16CJ turn radius:

F-14D turn radius:

There's an interesting video about the F-14 story, and in this video a guy from Grumman says that the F-14A had 2.5x better overall maneuverability than the F-4E/MIG-21Bis.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Darkbrotherhood7

[captain_dalan]

Suffice to say, at i.e. 5000ft, with the loaded F-14 you have on average 2g more under your wings at every knot, then you have with the clean F-4E all the way up to transonic, after which point it no longer matters as the g buildup is so high, the pilot can no longer take it.....

[Hummingbird]

Darkbrotherhood7,

 

Yes as your chart shows the F-14's Rmin with similar armament is noticably smaller at 1,500 ft versus the 1,935 ft of the F-16C :)

 

Infact the armed F-14B will as mentioned even turn inside a clean F-16C as the figures below taken from the same sources illustrate:

 

Rmin of F-14B (4xAIM-7's + 4xAIM-9's) vs clean F-16C:

 

Rmin @ 5,000 ft

F-14B = 1,275 ft

F-16C = 1,300 ft

 

Rmin @ 10,000 ft

F-14B = 1,500 ft

F-16C = 1,585 ft

 

When it comes to turning in a tight circle the F-14 really is one of the most capable fighter jets the US have ever fielded, which is abit amazing considering that it's also one of the largest.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Hummingbird

[dekiplav]

Darkbrotherhood7,

 

Yes as your chart shows the F-14's Rmin with similar armament is noticably smaller at 1,500 ft versus the 1,935 ft of the F-16C :)

 

Infact the armed F-14B will as mentioned even turn inside a clean F-16C as the figures below taken from the same sources illustrate:

 

Rmin of F-14B (4xAIM-7's + 4xAIM-9's) vs clean F-16C:

 

Rmin @ 5,000 ft

F-14B = 1,275 ft

F-16C = 1,300 ft

 

Rmin @ 10,000 ft

F-14B = 1,500 ft

F-16C = 1,585 ft

 

When it comes to turning in a tight circle the F-14 really is one of the most capable fighter jets the US have ever fielded, which is abit amazing considering that it's also one of the largest.

 

Is it possible to make similar comparison between F-14B and Su-27? I've always wondered how the F-14B will hold its own in a turning fight against Su-27.

[Danneskjold]

I wasn't saying that the F-4 was better, or equal. I should have been more clear. Just pointing out that the F-4 and F-14A are in fact a lot closer in some basic stats than people would otherwise think.

[Hummingbird]

Is it possible to make similar comparison between F-14B and Su-27? I've always wondered how the F-14B will hold its own in a turning fight against Su-27.

 

When I get home tonight I'll check some charts to see, but it's going to be close.

 

The Su-27 & F-14 are very much alike in that they are both highly optimized lifting body designs with their widely spaced nacelles and airfoil shaped fuselage. The Su-27 was basically an attempt to take the best of the F-14 & F-15 and combining them into one aircraft.

 

Btw remember that Rmin isn't the end all in a turn fight, turn rate is just as important, esp. sustained and this is an area where the F-16 beats most other fighters.

[dekiplav]

When I get home tonight I'll check some charts to see, but it's going to be close.

 

The Su-27 & F-14 are very much alike in that they are both highly optimized lifting body designs with their widely spaced nacelles and airfoil shaped fuselage. The Su-27 was basically an attempt to take the best of the F-14 & F-15 and combining them into one aircraft.

 

Btw remember that Rmin isn't the end all in a turn fight, turn rate is just as important, esp. sustained and this is an area where the F-16 beats most other fighters.

 

Thanks! :thumbup: I really enjoy reading this forum, I have learn a lot of stuff from you guys.:)

[Hummingbird]

Alright came home and went through some charts, but the only thing I could find on the Su-27 seems to be an early calculated one comparing the Su-27 to how the Russians expected the F-15 to perform.

 

On this chart the Su-27 is calculated as having an Rmin of what looks like ~400 m (1312 ft) at 3,000 m (9,842 ft).

 

 

 

 

So if the above chart is accurate the F-14 should have a slightly tighter turning circle.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Hummingbird

[Darkbrotherhood7]

But the question is, can the F-14 sustain this turn better than the F-16 or Su-27?

[Hummingbird]

But the question is, can the F-14 sustain this turn better than the F-16 or Su-27?

 

The loaded F-14's (8 missiles) sustained turn rate is slightly better than the loaded F-16 (6 missiles) up until about Mach 0.65 after which point the F-16 takes over. The clean F-16 has a better STR across the board.

 

The clean Su-27's STR seems slightly better than that of the clean F-16 at low speeds whilst the F-16 edges out above Mach 0.7 with a 0.2 deg/sec advantage. A clean F-14 is probably dead even with a clean Su-27 up until Mach 0.7 after which point the Su-27 seems to have a small advantage.

 

A loaded Su-27 however likely suffers a lot in the STR department, its missile installations are the draggiest of the bunch.

[Sideswipe]

Excellent stuff. In certain circles SU-27 seems to have an almost mythical maneuverability reputation. Probably has a lot to do with the cobra maneuver...

[BlackLion213]

Wing loading figures are very misleading, esp. when it comes to modern fighter jets, so I'd advise anyone not to look in that direction for answers :)

 

As for the subject, the F-14 enjoys a number of key advantages that makes sure that the F-4 Phantom really doesn't even come close to it when it comes to maneuvering flight.

 

1. Lifting body design

 

Now it's no secret that most aircraft don't get all their lift only from the wings, there's also usually going to be a fair amount generated by the fuselage. However due to its lifting body design, where the entire fuselage is shaped like an airfoil that blends in with the wings (it's basically as close you're going to get to a flying wing without it being one), the F-14 really stands out when it comes to the amount of fuselage related lift it generates.

 

Infact the total effective lifting area on a Tomcat is nearly doubled (!) over the reference wing area when body lift is thrown into the equation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. Automatic variable sweep wings

 

The F-14's ability alter its overall planform via automatically adjusting wing sweep allows it to maintain a high efficiency in lift vs drag (L/D ratio) across the entire speed envelope.

 

 

3. Full span LE + TE high lift devices

 

Full span leading edge slats & trailing edge maneuvre flaps that automatically deploy during maneuvers helps the F-14 achieve the maximum amount of lift possible in any type of turning combat, or crucially when having to land on or take off from aircraft carriers.

 

 

 

 

In summary: All together these key advantages give a combat ready F-14B armed with 4x Sparrows + 4x Sidewinders a tighter turn radius than a completely clean F-16C.

 

 

Thank you for all the data Hummingbird, I really appreciate the introduction of real data to these classic internet discussions. Remarkable how much the story changes when commenting on performance charts instead of pilot stories....how big was that fish again? :megalol:

 

-Nick

[Darkbrotherhood7]

Just adding more data guys

[SUBS17]

Excellent stuff. In certain circles SU-27 seems to have an almost mythical maneuverability reputation. Probably has a lot to do with the cobra maneuver...

 

The SU27 is more manoverable than a lot of aircraft but the first time a pair SU27s met the F-14 the F-14s won and that was through better training I think. BTW the F4 can do some interesting moves so if it were modeled it could be a handful vs any aircraft in some situations.

[Top Jockey]

I've been following this thread for some time, just my 2 cents:

 

For much I praise the F-14 Tomcat (probably my favourite bird), I find hard to believe it might have a significant better performance over the F-16 in dogfighting.

 

- The F-16 was born with the dogfight doctrine in mind (new concepts; excess energy; etc.);

- It has less than half the weight of the F-14;

- Its airframe is clearly more refined and optimised for ACM, than the F-14.

 

Although I find the F-14 as a generally superior war machine than the F-16 (for their time), I think in a dogfight scenario, all things being equal (pilots included) the Tomcat wouldn't last long.

 

The F-16's sustained turn rate for instance, would be one of the major threats for the Tomcat.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Top Jockey

[Sideswipe]

The SU27 is more manoverable than a lot of aircraft but the first time a pair SU27s met the F-14 the F-14s won and that was through better training I think. BTW the F4 can do some interesting moves so if it were modeled it could be a handful vs any aircraft in some situations.

 

I think I heard about that. The Tomcats locked up the SU-27s and they bugged out?

[Darkbrotherhood7]

I've been following this thread for some time, just my 2 cents:

 

For much I praise the F-14 Tomcat (probably my favourite bird), I find hard to believe it might have a significant better performance over the F-16 in dogfighting.

 

- The F-16 was born with the dogfight doctrine in mind (new concepts; excess energy; etc.);

- It has less than half the weight of the F-14;

- Its airframe is clearly more refined and optimised for ACM, than the F-14.

 

Although I find the F-14 as a generally superior war machine than the F-16 (for their time), I think in a dogfight scenario, all things being equal (pilots included) the Tomcat wouldn't last long.

 

The F-16's sustained turn rate for instance, would be one of the major threats for the Tomcat.

 

Well, I kinda agree with you.

 

The F-16 maybe has the advantage over the F-14, but the F-14 has enough maneuverability to win a dogfight against the F-16,F/A-18 Hornet, MIG-29 etc...

F/A-18 Hornet

 

MIG-29

 

 

F-15C

 

 

The F-14 also is my favorite bird! :-)

[Top Jockey]

Well, I kinda agree with you.

 

The F-16 maybe has the advantage over the F-14, but the F-14 has enough maneuverability to win a dogfight against the F-16,F/A-18 Hornet, MIG-29 etc...

 

F/A-18 Hornet

 

 

MIG-29

 

 

F-15C

 

The F-14 also is my favorite bird! :-)

 

Very good examples of the F-14 capabilites in DACT... I know the Tomcat also has its claws.

 

However, how long could it stay on the MiG-29 or F/A-18 six-o-clock if they started to maneuver hard ?

 

(I don't mention the F-15, because I believe this one does not pose the same threat in therms of ACM capabilities / maneuverability over the Tomcat, like the MiG or the Hornet.)

[Darkbrotherhood7]

However, how long could it stay on the MiG-29 or F/A-18 six-o-clock if they started to maneuver hard ?

 

Yeah, good point, but all those examples are simulated kills(Gun kills and fox 2 kills). :-)