DCS-SimpleRadio Standalone

[Looney]

Indeed it does, I'm practically drooling here :D

 

Anyway, if you need a testbed for the ATC radio please let me know, we routinely run with more then 3 radios and would love to get our hands on this nice piece of software.

[muffler]

Hello Ciribob!

Thank you for your radio! It works good, but some time server of DCS crush with message. It is occures, when somebody was shootdown.

[Ciribob]

Hello Ciribob!

Thank you for your radio! It works good, but some time server of DCS crush with message. It is occures, when somebody was shootdown.

 

Sorry Muffler, that'll be a scripting issue in the mission rather than an issue with SRS. The SimpleRadio Server doesnt actually talk to the DCS server at all so it won't cause lua errors like that.

 

Also the variable _place doesnt appear in any of my export scripts or the auto connect script.

 

Try taking a look in the dcs.log in Saved Games\DCS\Logs and it should give you a clue as to which script is causing the issue :)

[Paganus]

I hope the possible link with LotAtc can be an optional setting, so that those that don't use it wont lose the current LoS system.

 

I find the current implementation to be quite elegant in it's simplicity.

[Ciribob]

I hope the possible link with LotAtc can be an optional setting, so that those that don't use it wont lose the current LoS system.

 

I find the current implementation to be quite elegant in it's simplicity.

 

No worries it would be. :)

 

This is just being investigated for those that want to Radio Comms without DCS running with LotATC.

 

I will implement my own LOS system for ATC anyway based on my post above. It'll work by the ATC user selecting a location from a drop down or entering a decimal latitude and longitude which'll be converted by DCS into an internal game position. You can see progress on the ATC panel a few posts ago :)

 

I've got the ATC panel working and its mostly tested but I don't want to do a release when I'm about to do some travelling for work so I won't release it for testing until at least 5th October when i'm around more.

[muffler]

Sorry Muffler, that'll be a scripting issue in the mission rather than an issue with SRS. The SimpleRadio Server doesnt actually talk to the DCS server at all so it won't cause lua errors like that.

 

Also the variable _place doesnt appear in any of my export scripts or the auto connect script.

 

Try taking a look in the dcs.log in Saved Games\DCS\Logs and it should give you a clue as to which script is causing the issue :)

Thank you for answer! Your radio is the best :thumbup:

[GGTharos]

Ciribob, can you please add a parameter to describe the antenna gain for each aircraft?

 

Using the fixed 1dbm is inadequate - we'd be looking at an 8-10dbi antenna.

[pepin1234]

Guys in the export.lua inside OphenBeta folder I found the Simpleradio line second and Tacview line at last position. Then I change it like Simpleradio installation guide say. Simpleradio line at last line. This is correct??

 

Before:

 

 

Now:

 

[MikeMikeJuliet]

The crosstalk between SRS and LotAC could expand the sim beyond what it is now. I am very pleased to see such ideas being looked at on this thread. And with less parts to juggle with, and the inbuilt compatibility...

[pepin1234]

The crosstalk between SRS and LotAC could expand the sim beyond what it is now. I am very pleased to see such ideas being looked at on this thread. And with less parts to juggle with, and the inbuilt compatibility...

 

+1

[MikeMikeJuliet]

... soon we could start advertising DCS as an air traffic simulator :D That ought to get some new people in.

[Tarres]

@Pepin, you need to comment the first line and turn off the Aries plugin from the TS to avoid problems with the AriesRadio.

 

Simply write -- before the first line. The line will turn green. That indicates that the line is "commented".

Like this:

--dofile(lfs....)

Edited September 27, 2016 by Tarres

[pepin1234]

@Pepin, you need to comment the first line and turn off the Aries plugin from the TS to avoid problems with the AriesRadio.

 

Simply write -- before the first line. The line will turn green. That indicates that the line is "commented".

Like this:

--dofile(lfs....)

 

Thanks man.

[ESAc_matador]

The crosstalk between SRS and LotAC could expand the sim beyond what it is now. I am very pleased to see such ideas being looked at on this thread. And with less parts to juggle with, and the inbuilt compatibility...

 

Would be great if 3 or 4 airports had some human atc.

[Ciribob]

Ciribob, can you please add a parameter to describe the antenna gain for each aircraft?

 

Using the fixed 1dbm is inadequate - we'd be looking at an 8-10dbi antenna.

 

Feel free to edit the sheet here (request edit permissions and i'll grant them):

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tzd996zJ1t0heZ-t1PpL7vNUIZbXl7pI6De0GThN1Qw/edit#gid=621051887

 

Just request access permissions and you can fill in. Once I've got all the values then I can modify the Friis equation to add back in the 10 db or so gain.

 

My only concern is this will give an unrealistic higher transmission range again as as described in earlier posts, I deliberately limit the antenna gain and max receiver sensitivity to simulate losses in wiring, atmospheric and all the other factors that affect a radio transmission.

 

If anyone wants to help me program in a more detailed model I'm very open for help! Current code is here: https://github.com/ciribob/DCS-SimpleRadioStandalone/blob/master/DCS-SR-Common/Helpers/RadioCalculator.cs :)

[GGTharos]

Feel free to edit the sheet here (request edit permissions and i'll grant them):

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tzd996zJ1t0heZ-t1PpL7vNUIZbXl7pI6De0GThN1Qw/edit#gid=621051887

 

Just request access permissions and you can fill in. Once I've got all the values then I can modify the Friis equation to add back in the 10 db or so gain.

 

 

Ok :)

 

My only concern is this will give an unrealistic higher transmission range again as as described in earlier posts, I deliberately limit the antenna gain and max receiver sensitivity to simulate losses in wiring, atmospheric and all the other factors that affect a radio transmission.

 

Right now it's giving unrealistically poor performance; you're almost always better off over-modeling slightly than the other way around :)

[Ciribob]

Right now it's giving unrealistically poor performance; you're almost always better off over-modeling slightly than the other way around :)

 

Thats interesting that you say that as I thought with all the IRL losses the distances would end up being much worse than whats coming out at the moment with the values I linked too in a previous post.

 

I have very little real world experience with voice comms radios (i worked on long range wireless data transmission for a bit though) so happy to take pointers :)

 

With a 10db antenna gain for both receiver and transmitter it brings the maximum distance for a transmission at co-altitude assuming line of sight according to Friis with:

 

250MHz with 10 W transmitter (40 dBm)

 

to

 

3000 KM (Rx Sensitivity to -90 dBm) which seems a bit high? Might've misunderstood your request though...

 

Pic attached from calculator here http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Friis-Calculator.phtml

Edited September 28, 2016 by Ciribob

[GGTharos]

I may have put in the wrong numbers then :/

 

What we experienced was a severe reduction in audio volume within approximately 30-40nm, and even closer. I can only say 'real radios aren't that bad'.

 

So perhaps I should ask instead - what could cause this? This goes away if we remove the various radio effects based on distance and LOS.

[Ciribob]

I may have put in the wrong numbers then :/

 

What we experienced was a severe reduction in audio volume within approximately 30-40nm, and even closer. I can only say 'real radios aren't that bad'.

 

So perhaps I should ask instead - what could cause this? This goes away if we remove the various radio effects based on distance and LOS.

 

No worries! :)

 

At a guess I'd assume line of sight rather than distance causing the issue but you'd have to do a controlled test for me to diagnose with set frequencies at heights . Were you all relatively high or could the curve of the earth or terrain get in the way?

 

Something like 2 F-15s either end of the map at something like 50,000 feet transmitting on 251 and fly towards each other noting distances with the audio volume you think would be acceptable? Turn off Line of Sight to ensure the earth isn't causing the issue. Then try again and see if its a combination of LOS and distance.

 

The volume reduction will be removed at some point anyway and replaced with a mix of increasing static with a slight volume reduction to better simulate the effect of distance as well but time is required which I don't have for the next week or so :(

 

You can plug the numbers into the calculator linked above (constants here https://github.com/ciribob/DCS-SimpleRadioStandalone/blob/master/DCS-SR-Common/Helpers/RadioCalculator.cs), as long as the received power is greater than -90 you should hear each other.

 

The scaling is done here and may be the culprit as its a bit aggressive: https://github.com/ciribob/DCS-SimpleRadioStandalone/blob/dd046461de5ec84a640ff32d4f0c018961806978/DCS-SR-Client/Audio/ClientAudioProvider.cs#L86

 

Basically if you've lost over 60% of the original signal (but not really 60% as its logarithmic but bear with me) I start to reduce the audio down to 0 for the last 40% of signal

 

i.e 20% signal left (80% loss) of the original would be a 50% reduction in audio volume.

 

The scaling system will also be rewritten as its just an abuse of units (maths God will be sad) and will instead be based on % to total signal loss distance instead of messing around with non linear scales which'll make life easier. The calculation is here based on a partially re-arranged and partially solved Friis https://github.com/ciribob/DCS-SimpleRadioStandalone/blob/757513b2689a7f16e6cb207165afc70fc29b92ec/DCS-SR-Common/Helpers/RadioCalculator.cs#L37

 

40nm is nothing really though so shouldn't be like that.... and I'll have to do some maths to work out why but don't have time to investigate tonight - sorry!

Edited September 28, 2016 by Ciribob

[GGTharos]

No worries! :)

 

At a guess I'd assume line of sight rather than distance causing the issue but you'd have to do a controlled test for me to diagnose with set frequencies at heights . Were you all relatively high or could the curve of the earth or terrain get in the way?

 

I'll do some better testing, yes, though I can right away say this:

 

3 x F-15s T/R on 265MhZ and 251MhZ

 

2 x F-15s no farther than 15nm apart with constant LOS, never separated by ground or near it, between 10000' and 20000' altitude.

 

1 x F-15 ducking in and out of terrain masking, though mostly in LOS with the other two within 30nm-40nm

 

All experiencing the exact same issue, regardless of who is transmitting.

 

The scaling is done here and may be the culprit as its a bit aggressive: https://github.com/ciribob/DCS-SimpleRadioStandalone/blob/dd046461de5ec84a640ff32d4f0c018961806978/DCS-SR-Client/Audio/ClientAudioProvider.cs#L86

 

Basically if you've lost over 60% of the original signal (but not really 60% as its logarithmic but bear with me) I start to reduce the audio down to 0 for the last 40% of signal

 

 

i.e 20% signal left (80% loss) of the original would be a 50% reduction in audio volume.

 

The scaling system will also be rewritten as its just an abuse of units (maths God will be sad) and will instead be based on % to total signal loss distance instead of messing around with non linear scales which'll make life easier. The calculation is here based on a partially re-arranged and partially solved Friis https://github.com/ciribob/DCS-SimpleRadioStandalone/blob/757513b2689a7f16e6cb207165afc70fc29b92ec/DCS-SR-Common/Helpers/RadioCalculator.cs#L37

 

40nm is nothing really though so shouldn't be like that.... and I'll have to do some maths to work out why but don't have time to investigate tonight - sorry!

 

Thanks, I'll check it out :)

[Ciribob]

I'll do some better testing, yes, though I can right away say this:

 

3 x F-15s T/R on 265MhZ and 251MhZ

 

2 x F-15s no farther than 15nm apart with constant LOS, never separated by ground or near it, between 10000' and 20000' altitude.

 

1 x F-15 ducking in and out of terrain masking, though mostly in LOS with the other two within 30nm-40nm

 

All experiencing the exact same issue, regardless of who is transmitting.

 

Thanks, I'll check it out :)

 

It definitely sounds like the scaling function for distance is wrong then (rather than the distance limit itself). Not too surprising as its horrendous and really just plain wrong maths.... but definitely try a test with LOS turned off just incase its the interaction of the two.

 

Thanks for letting me know and I'll try to fix in the next update with AWACS / JTAC panel in a week or so unless I get time after a flight on Monday :)

[GGTharos]

Hi Ciribob,

 

I did the math. Yep, the scaling is way too aggressive.

 

At 10000m you're already at 64% loss.

 

The culprit is that single line of code.

 

My suggestion is, instead of using 0.6, use 0.95. The maximum transmission range as calculated by FRIIS is ~360km, this will give you ~200km before the radio starts fading.

 

https://github.com/ciribob/DCS-SimpleRadioStandalone/blob/dd046461de5ec84a640ff32d4f0c018961806978/DCS-SR-Client/Audio/ClientAudioProvider.cs#L90

 

 

In order to fix the audio scaling itself,

 

speaker1Short = (short) (speaker1Short*(1.0f - loss));

 

should become something along the lines of:

 

speaker1Short = (short) (speaker1Short*(1.0f - Math.Pow(loss,10) ));

 

Actually with the power at 10 you might even be able to do away with the 'if loss less than this' line, and then the loss become very progressive ... though it's possible that this should be a piecewise function, with one part having just a simple but very shallow slope (in which case, why have it at all?) with a hockey stick (oh noes!) at the end.

Edited September 28, 2016 by GGTharos

[Pikey]

+1 for DArt and Ciribob making LotATC babies :)

[Ciribob]

Hi Ciribob,

 

I did the math. Yep, the scaling is way too aggressive.

 

At 10000m you're already at 64% loss.

 

The culprit is that single line of code.

 

My suggestion is, instead of using 0.6, use 0.95. The maximum transmission range as calculated by FRIIS is ~360km, this will give you ~200km before the radio starts fading.

 

https://github.com/ciribob/DCS-SimpleRadioStandalone/blob/dd046461de5ec84a640ff32d4f0c018961806978/DCS-SR-Client/Audio/ClientAudioProvider.cs#L90

 

 

In order to fix the audio scaling itself,

 

speaker1Short = (short) (speaker1Short*(1.0f - loss));

 

should become something along the lines of:

 

speaker1Short = (short) (speaker1Short*(1.0f - Math.Pow(loss,10) ));

 

Actually with the power at 10 you might even be able to do away with the 'if loss less than this' line, and then the loss become very progressive ... though it's possible that this should be a piecewise function, with one part having just a simple but very shallow slope (in which case, why have it at all?) with a hockey stick (oh noes!) at the end.

 

Thanks GGTharos, thats amazingly helpful!!

 

I'll look at getting this in for the next update then. I was thinking of a piecewise function as well but wasn't sure it would be worth it as you say as the shallow slope will basically be undetectable until the near the end. I'll have a mess around when I'm back.

 

Is there a calculation that would give voice quality vs noise (something like Friis) for RL radio transmissions? Had a look around but nothing obvious as I guess its hardware dependant?

[SeraphimGray]

I was thinking... and that rarely ends up well :)

 

How cool would be if SR could play TopGun theme and similar music on specific channel :D