Kneeboard map needs some features...

[MikeMikeJuliet]

Hello everybody,

 

I was having a bash with the Mig-21 and the Hawk and realized how poor the kneeboard maps are for "cross country" flights. When you fly low radio signals don't help you much once you get even a little distance between you and the beacon, not to mention flying near high terrain...

 

Now as we all know, not all planes have GNSS systems nor inertial navigation equipment (mig-21 doesn't even have a mission computer...). Thus, flying low the only way you know where you are is by looking outside.

 

As the maps are not quite as detailed as I would like, I can live with that. My problem is, that when you plan a route, no info apart from turning point number is replicated on the kneeboard map.

 

I propose the following: Add leg distance (NM/KM) and the leg's magnetic heading (degrees). This would greatly increase the maps usability and help flying the low-fi aircraft.

 

Direction, speed, time and you should be able to tell where you are.

 

 

 

Now I know most of us would probably want the whole keeboard revamped, but i feel this would be easy to implement, and would make the whole thing much more useful.

 

Cheers,

MikeMikeJuliet

[portman]

Add leg distance (NM/KM) and the leg's magnetic heading (degrees). This would greatly increase the maps usability and help flying the low-fi aircraft.

 

+1 :thumbup: This is also what the real pilots back then had on their kneeboards. Self-painted mini-maps with headings and distances / flight times. :)

[MikeMikeJuliet]

They actually use those on trainer aircraft to this day. Back-up maps if MFD's and such fail. Always a handy tool to have. ;)

[QuiGon]

They actually use those on trainer aircraft to this day. Back-up maps if MFD's and such fail. Always a handy tool to have. ;)

 

Not just on trainers

[SDsc0rch]

unrelated but related... i saw in skatezilla's youtube vid how the kneeboard is represented in VR

 

its just a 3D version of the 2D kneeboard

 

here's an idea ----- put the kneeboard down there where your knee/lap would be - like it is in the real world

 

the way it is now (in front of you - but offset to the right) it blocks your view forward

[firmek]

Totally agree with above. The kneeboard should show the leg heading/distance. In Mi-8 campaign the flight plan was described this way which was really a great help but the problem was that it was only available in the briefing view.

Also the kneeboard should be a part of the cockpit 3D model. As it isimplemented right now it obstructs 1/3 of the screen when running in 1920/1080.

[Bogey Jammer]

This can be made by scripting. I'm dreaming to do it but it is too complex and time consuming for me…

 

Also the kneeboard should be a part of the cockpit 3D model. As it isimplemented right now it obstructs 1/3 of the screen when running in 1920/1080.

 

Yeah but you will eventually have to zoom in to see the kneeboard details anyway.

[firmek]

This is correct, a lot of current pages would require zooming-in. On the other hand zooming is something being done quite often in DCS. Also more pages optimized for 3D view would start slowly appear.

For instance, page like this should be fairly well visible:

Edited July 2, 2016 by firmek

[Frederf]

There absolutely should be a generated textual navlog page(s) based on the editor flight plan.

[MikeMikeJuliet]

In-cockpit kneeboard would be a very good addition.

 

1 - added immersion

2 - less buttons to use on the keyboard and the kneeboard would always be visible when you need it

3 - you can always look at the kneeboard without needing to get your hands off the stick.

 

You could also add a click-feature so that you could swap pages with the mouse/cursor as you would any other cockpit item.

[Bogey Jammer]

For instance, page like this should be fairly well visible:

I don't think so. When it comes to details like the smaller characters of this page, inclination and texture filtering will render them unreadable.

[firmek]

In-cockpit kneeboard would be a very good addition.

 

1 - added immersion

2 - less buttons to use on the keyboard and the kneeboard would always be visible when you need it

3 - you can always look at the kneeboard without needing to get your hands off the stick.

 

You could also add a click-feature so that you could swap pages with the mouse/cursor as you would any other cockpit item.

 

1-3 are a valid arguments, also having the click possibility to turn pages is a great idea :thumbup:

 

@Bogey_Jammer - I agree that this page is not the best example but with a few optimizations it would be for sure much more readable. The RSBN and radio channels already should be quite well visible.

[mkiii]

I would say that an in cockpit kneepad / map that zooms into the current version, on-screen so you can actually read it would be good.

 

BUT... You really need to be able to position it on screen where you want it for each aircraft. ATM it is messed up if you have anything but standard monitor settings.

[MikeMikeJuliet]

I would say that an in cockpit kneepad / map that zooms into the current version, on-screen so you can actually read it would be good.

 

BUT... You really need to be able to position it on screen where you want it for each aircraft. ATM it is messed up if you have anything but standard monitor settings.

 

Having it as a 3D-kneeboard object that you could perhaps move around even, would solve the problem, because then it wouldn't be about the scaling of resolution on a 2D plane, but rather just another texture in the cockpit... Though we would need to have an option to change the kneepad resolution separately in that case.

[klem]

I would say that an in cockpit kneepad / map that zooms into the current version, on-screen so you can actually read it would be good.

 

BUT... You really need to be able to position it on screen where you want it for each aircraft. ATM it is messed up if you have anything but standard monitor settings.

 

There is a community "Kneeboard builder" which allows you to reposition and resize the kneeboard as well as adding custom pages per aircraft:-

www.dcskneeboardbuilder.com

 

I don't know if Integrity Check will like it but I am using it.

 

What I would really like to see is a search box or 'jump to page' feature because the standard Kneeboard contains 53 items which you get whether you like it or not unless you heavily edit the folder (integrity check again??) but then it all comes back with each patch.

 

On top of that you get any custom pages you create in your Saved Games area.

 

Another option would be to be able to turn off the standard folder and only use the custom folder but that all gets a bit tedious.

 

OR

 

a lua file generator in-game that lets you define what you want of the standard set in the kneeboard (drag and drop?) with the custom ones adding in as present.

Edited July 26, 2016 by klem

[Bogey Jammer]

This can be made by scripting. I'm dreaming to do it but it is too complex and time consuming for me…

 

Nevermind…

 

 

100% Lua :chef:

 

It's WIP though.

[gospadin]

All you need is a compass, your airspeed indicator, and a watch.

 

You don't need full-time radio signals to navigate by beacons. Just use dead reckoning to get close enough to receive the signal, then use the signal to fine-tune.

[Bogey Jammer]

All you need is a compass, your airspeed indicator, and a watch.

Yeah, but the point is to have the navigation data written on kneeboard precisely needed to navigate with these tools.

[MikeMikeJuliet]

That radio navigation info would also be handy in case you need to go IFR for some reason. And if waypoints are not over a beacon, you need range and bearing to said waypoint from a nearby beacon.

 

If you can, try to keep the text a bit larger to make it legible to VR-users. A page with easy-to-read essential information would improve the kneeboard very much.

 

 

I came up with another idea considering kneeboard pages and the sheer amount of them. What if we used page swapping in two dimentions, instead of one? EXAMPLE: Left and right -keys would change the airfield/category. Up and down -keys would change the page in each category. You could have all your enroute maps in one category and run through them with the up and down -keys; Mission details on the next category, and the each airfield in its own.

 

The sorting should also remember your selected page on each category/airfield so you could easily swap between your map and your mission details for example, without reverting back to the original "default page" of each category.

 

I hope that made sense.

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

Edited September 26, 2016 by MikeMikeJuliet

[Bogey Jammer]

That radio navigation info would also be handy in case you need to go IFR for some reason. And if waypoints are not over a beacon, you need range and bearing to said waypoint from a nearby beacon.

 

It's already in my todo list. I'm still looking for the way to read beacon data, then the coordinates unit conversion is the next challenge.

 

If you can, try to keep the text a bit larger to make it legible to VR-users. A page with easy-to-read essential information would improve the kneeboard very much.

 

The text size is a real PITA, I have tendency to ever reduce it because most of mission's flight plans make the page overcrowded of annotations. I know this is a big issue for VR use, but I still have to find a workaround to display all the basic infos and keep readability. Ideas are welcome here.

 

I came up with another idea considering kneeboard pages and the sheer amount of them. What if we used page swapping in two dimentions, instead of one? EXAMPLE: Left and right -keys would change the airfield/category. Up and down -keys would change the page in each category. You could have all your enroute maps in one category and run through them with the up and down -keys; Mission details on the next category, and the each airfield in its own.

 

The sorting should also remember your selected page on each category/airfield so you could easily swap between your map and your mission details for example, without reverting back to the original "default page" of each category.

 

I hope that made sense.

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

 

I think I can dig it. Once the kneeboard API will be deciphered by the community, I think we will be able to greatly improve kneeboard's ergonomics. Belsimtek has started the process with the sticky tabs and exclusive commands for them. Categorization, tabs, shortcuts and custom commands would be the next step. If it is possible…

[MikeMikeJuliet]

I guess the answer to text size is to keep as few lines of text as possible on the map itself, and add more info to a separate boxed section with additional info for every turnpoint. Another way might be to make the map NOT to scale, because you usually don't have a need for the long line between waypoints, just the waypoint itself.

 

That would require a lot of positioning of the map elements though, no likely not ideal.

[MikeMikeJuliet]

Another thing. If you want to shorten the text you have on the route legs and waypoints, try the following:

 

On ETA only write minutes and seconds as long as the time is on the same hour. give the start time only in the full format. Waypoint names can be set aside to a separate text area on the kneeboard. When you need to fly an altitude, write QNH, if you fly on flight leves, write STD (STanDard, not the other kind of std...), and with radar altimiter write AGL (Above Ground Level).

 

Leave out the return direction, it takes unnecessary space, and every pilot should be able to derive the direction in their head if need be.

 

Meters on the altitudes is ok as it is, if you show feet on that you can abbreviate thousands of feet with "kft" (kilo-feet). So 1000ft =1kft. If you want, the same thing works ok with km too if you need to shorten that.

 

Altitude and speed could be written separately from the map in my opinion. That way only direction and time would show on the map, and the rest on a footnote textfiekd below the picture.

 

Would that work?

[Bogey Jammer]

Yeah, I see there is room for customization. I can implement all of your suggestions (except keyboard commands), and let the user to choose what and how it is displayed. This way it will be possible to show different pages generated by instances of the same script but with different formatting, both graphical and table. That would solve the problem of annotation spam by diluting them.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Bogey Jammer

[Bogey Jammer]

I'm almost ready to release my flight plan page. But if you still want to discuss about it, there is the dedicated thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=175186

 

;)

[ebabil]

i don't use kneeboard too much since it is not usable for me. i have some wishes and if those are already in it please let me know:

 

1- Toggle kneeboard to screen, not forcing to push and hold K key

2- Mouse click to turn next/previous pages

3- Index page with mouse click ability to go directly related page

4- See the briefing in kneeboard

5- Zoom in out the pages