Mig21 Vs F5E Tactics

[leadlag]

As a new pilot to the Mig21 (Have had the module a while but not flown properly) I am still learning the aircraft and it's vices. I must say,I can echo the chorus of how good this module is.

 

Can people post their knowledge and experience on getting the upper hand against the F5E as I seem to have pretty mixed results.I but put most of that down to my own inexperience not the Mig.

[Zomba]

I've been fiddling around with tactics with both aircraft and found they do occupy different areas of performance. The Mig is all about energy and acceleration using hit and run tactics, while the F5 has excellent agility that makes it surprisingly dangerous in the turning fight.

 

What I found works reasonably well with the Mig is to skim in from a fairly low level at about mach 0.9 with radar off flying at a slight offset heading to where you expect the enemy to be so you can look out the side where you have better vision. Just using your eyes to scan for any F5 against the acid blue sky. Like this you should be able to spot him sooner than they spot you as the Mig can be difficult to discern with the ground behind it, especially from front or back. I try and avoid approaching them from a frontal angle as it increases the chance of them counter-detecting you, their radar is much better than yours and can operate at low altitude. When I spot one I just build that energy and make a single pass and then run while he's busy defending. He doesn't have the acceleration or speed to follow by the time he figures out (if he ever does) where you went.

 

Sometimes I stick around an turn with them if I think they have lost sight of me or they're asleep at the wheel, but normally avoid turning fights with an F5.

[leadlag]

I've been fiddling around with tactics with both aircraft and found they do occupy different areas of performance. The Mig is all about energy and acceleration using hit and run tactics, while the F5 has excellent agility that makes it surprisingly dangerous in the turning fight.

 

What I found works reasonably well with the Mig is to skim in from a fairly low level at about mach 0.9 with radar off flying at a slight offset heading to where you expect the enemy to be so you can look out the side where you have better vision. Just using your eyes to scan for any F5 against the acid blue sky. Like this you should be able to spot him sooner than they spot you as the Mig can be difficult to discern with the ground behind it, especially from front or back. I try and avoid approaching them from a frontal angle as it increases the chance of them counter-detecting you, their radar is much better than yours and can operate at low altitude. When I spot one I just build that energy and make a single pass and then run while he's busy defending. He doesn't have the acceleration or speed to follow by the time he figures out (if he ever does) where you went.

 

Sometimes I stick around an turn with them if I think they have lost sight of me or they're asleep at the wheel, but normally avoid turning fights with an F5.

 

What you are saying does strike a chord. I do not have the Tiger so don't know it's capability.

 

I have found that getting into a direct fight can be dicey and once one is on my six my best course is to try and force a overshoot which can be risky, I have ended up stopping the engine and stalling the 21 a few times and ended up in the drink as the F5E seems more to have a much faster roll rate and faster turn rate.

 

What I struggle with is the visibility out of the 21. I find it a struggle to see especially at distance with the dirty, old front screen.:megalol:

 

Do you use radar guided or heaters on hit and run?

[Zomba]

Heaters only. Normally R13m for the longer straight shots and R60m for the shorter stuff, especially if they are aware of you. I vary rarely ever use the R3Rs anymore as they can't be used at low level.

 

Best way to get the hang of it is just to fly as much as you can then afterward think about what was good and bad when you are not in the sim and being distracted by things. With me anyway it's only really later that I realise what I was doing wrong.

 

One thing to remember is that have WAAAAAYY more acceleration than he does, so if you can get a little breathing room it's possible to sprint out of range.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Zomba

[Tirak]

Boom and Zoom. The F-5/MiG-21 matchup is an amusing inversion of the MiG-21/F-4 matchup, so ironically you end up having to fly the MiG like its main enemy.

 

Your power is vastly superior to his, you've got more Umpf, a signifigant amount more. You regain energy faster than him in straight lines, and you climb better than him. Once you get going, you pull away without any problems, where he is stuck coughing on your dust, and this isn't even with emergency afterburner.

 

Personally I fly with 2x R3R and 2x R-60M.Taking only 2 R-60Ms is less drag, and less weight on your tiny wing, giving you a bit more leeway. Taking the R3Rs gives me an advantage at a neutral merge, since I have reliable forward aspect missiles, and he does not.

 

Neutral: -----F> <M------- Huge advantage for you here since you have the R3Rs. Keep below him, looking up, lock on, fire. Easy dead F-5. If you meet in the merge and pass by, do so at full burner and climb and loop back in on him.

 

Disadvantage: -----F> -------M> Use your superior acceleration, full burner and run, once you make it up to around 800kmph, pull back on the stick. Produce no more than 20~25 units of AoA and loop. Do not go slower than 550kmph. He can turn faster than you, but he can't climb with you, so always do climbing turns. If he follows, he bleeds all his energy, something he cannot recover. If he does not, you're in a strong followup position.

 

Advantage: -------M> -----F> Radar if you can, Heater if you're having trouble. In this position he will try to force the overshoot with hard turns. His agility and superior low speed handling means you will overshoot if you try to turn with him. Keep with his turns using high yo yos, flow out, up over and in to keep on his tail.

 

The key thing to take away is DO NOT TRY TO TURN WITH HIM. His aircraft is far better in turns, you will lose your energy faster, turn slower, and leave yourself in a stall if you try to stay with him. Never try to force an overshoot, always burn away, then go high.

[Hadwell]

 

What I struggle with is the visibility out of the 21. I find it a struggle to see especially at distance with the dirty, old front screen.:megalol:

 

Look at the ground for shadows, sometimes you can still see his shadow even if you can't look back enough to see his actual plane, also the parascope mirror works great...

 

anyway, shadows are easier to see than planes...

 

to verify what others have pointed out here... if you're a visual learner....

zXO-CdKUlRk

OPh24YChcQw

W0fHJUzb2E8

8gH5cR7-x_Y

Edited July 29, 2016 by Hadwell

[leadlag]

Yep,

 

Have found climbing turns are a good counter.

 

If the f5 tries to follow then he just does'nt have the energy and end up slow and vunerable. Have got two kills like this.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Basically, fly the MiG like you would a Bf-109; climbing turns, use altitude and speed.

 

Between the F-5E-3's gun set up and superior radar that it can use to direct the gunsight, you really don't want to turn fight with one. You want to keep your altitude especially since the current Fishbed radar throws a tantrum when you hit very low altitudes.

[MAD-MM]

Did some of you successful use the Radar with SARH Missile to score a kill against the F-5?

Found against Fighter sized Target it not very useful, they are just to manoeuvrable.

I only scored a kill with R-3R Fixed Beam look on.

[leadlag]

Did some of you successful use the Radar with SARH Missile to score a kill against the F-5?

Found against Fighter sized Target it not very useful, they are just to manoeuvrable.

I only scored a kill with R-3R Fixed Beam look on.

 

Not had a radar kill against a f5 yet. Tend to just take heaters.

[Tirak]

Did some of you successful use the Radar with SARH Missile to score a kill against the F-5?

Found against Fighter sized Target it not very useful, they are just to manoeuvrable.

I only scored a kill with R-3R Fixed Beam look on.

 

Only in ambush and neutral merge conditions. The radar isn't good at dogfighting, though locking from a fixed beam yields decent results.

 

All heaters vs a brace of SARH is just down to preference. All heaters is way easier to use, but you sacrifice front aspect attack and some range, but both are pretty viable. Fly in whichever configuration you feel more comfortable with.

 

Personally, I just can't stand to give up the edge of having radar guided missiles against the F-5. The R3Rs are situational as all hell and getting locks is ridiculously hard because of the current radar bug, but I'd rather have them than not.

[grunf]

Did some of you successful use the Radar with SARH Missile to score a kill against the F-5?

Found against Fighter sized Target it not very useful, they are just to manoeuvrable.

I only scored a kill with R-3R Fixed Beam look on.

Only one kill, a few more failed attempts, all with the radar in normal mode, no fixed beam. Because everyone is flying low I tend to carry only heaters most of the time.

[Bullitthead]

Do you guys think the boom and zoom, climb away tactics are going to work once the missiles are fixed and the F5 can start using it's missiles? Will the Mig be able to keep enough speed/climb rate over the F5 to be able to outrun/climb the missile?

[TheSnark]

Outrun? No not always only if the enemy fires at an unfavourable moment. Otherwise use normal evasion tactics like flares.

[MAD-MM]

Do you guys think the boom and zoom, climb away tactics are going to work once the missiles are fixed and the F5 can start using it's missiles? Will the Mig be able to keep enough speed/climb rate over the F5 to be able to outrun/climb the missile?

 

It's work MIG have more thrust then F-5 faster and climb much better, but you have to be aware of your energy state and distance of your opponent.

I Shoot more then a couple of times MIG's after Dogfight they try to run, they where on the same energy state.

AIM-9 still faster then MIG :smilewink:

[Tirak]

Do you guys think the boom and zoom, climb away tactics are going to work once the missiles are fixed and the F5 can start using it's missiles? Will the Mig be able to keep enough speed/climb rate over the F5 to be able to outrun/climb the missile?

 

Absolutely, you just need to pick your moments. Don't put yourself in a situation where you're panic burning, we burn hard on the outbound to recover energy, not because we tried to turn with the F-5 and got caught out. That's the reason for doing high yo yos for your turns, you cover more distance, but because your energy stays high you keep with them.

 

Also, the F-5 isn't modeling compressor stalls, when that happens... well things are gonna get even more even.

[Panthir]

IMO performancewise F-5 can't win. Mig has by far better rate of turn and dominates all altittudes. The only thing you have to take care very very carefully, is your overtake respectfully to your aspect angle when you are inside F-5s current radius turn.

[Fri13]

IMO performancewise F-5 can't win. Mig has by far better rate of turn and dominates all altittudes. The only thing you have to take care very very carefully, is your overtake respectfully to your aspect angle when you are inside F-5s current radius turn.

 

Exactly. That is my memory after reading the "Red Eagles - America's Secret MIGs" where US Aggressors selected F-5 to simulate Mig-21F as it was closest to it in turn rates. The Mig-21 still had good edge and superiority in acceleration (that was still slow to respond to throttle) but suffered a lot from low visibility to front and rear that F-5 didn't so much.

 

But by flight wise, just deny the F-5 pilot tactics and it can't get you to good firing position.

[Xenovia]

Step 1. Don't enter the Mig-21

Step 2. Enter the Mirage 2000C

Step 3. Engage the F-5 and win.

 

XD

 

Naah, jokes aside my way of doing it, is going low and try to get to their back side so i cant be spotted easily or at all sometimes (the Mig-21 is really shiny) and use Heat seekers, 2x R60M's on each side of my wings and an external fuel pod on center pylon. The Mig-21 is all about speed and energy so, like Zomba said, use hit and run tactics.

[Hadwell]

I always take 4xR60m and 2x r3r, only use r3rs when you can't use r60s and they work up to 12km head on and 5km rear aspect, try not to shoot them against a target pulling more than 2 G's.

 

R60ms work out to 4km, but I never use them at more than 3km(on purpose). Don't use them against targets pulling more than 8gs.

 

R13m1 works out to 7km, they turn a bit better than r3rs, don't use them against targets pulling more than 7gs

Edited August 1, 2016 by Hadwell

[NaCH]

I always take 4xR60m and 2x r3r, only use r3rs when you can't use r60s and they work up to 12km head on and 5km rear aspect, try not to shoot them against a target pulling more than 2 G's.

 

R60ms work out to 4km, but I never use them at more than 3km(on purpose). Don't use them against targets pulling more than 8gs.

 

R13m1 works out to 7km, they turn a bit better than r3rs, don't use them against targets pulling more than 7gs

 

Is this still applicable on the current state of MP modeling of the missiles?

 

I had more success with the R3S thatn the R13M1 which in the past was the best IR missile.

 

R60m where the most maneuverable but the weakest one.. to get a F15 down you need at least 2 .. and for mirage maybe 3.

 

The problem of carrying the twin rail for the r60m is the loose of performance as it creates a lots of drag.

[Hadwell]

Is this still applicable on the current state of MP modeling of the missiles?

 

I had more success with the R3S thatn the R13M1 which in the past was the best IR missile.

 

R60m where the most maneuverable but the weakest one.. to get a F15 down you need at least 2 .. and for mirage maybe 3.

 

The problem of carrying the twin rail for the r60m is the loose of performance as it creates a lots of drag.

 

 

the R3S and R3R are the same missile: the aim-9B, so they both have the same 2G limit, and 5KM range...

 

the R13M1 is basically an aim-9G/J hybrid, has a bigger rocket motor for longer range, and a better tracker than the aim-9B(R3S), has the same control fins(canards) as the aim-9P... so that's why it has a 7G limit and 7KM range...

 

the R-60M can be launched while you're pulling 9Gs, against a target pulling 8Gs, and from 300m away, where as the R13/R3 has a minimum launch range of 1km...

 

the F-5E is so underpowered the extra drag doesn't matter... the mig-21 has so much extra thrust, holds its energy way better... hell, i bet you could take groms and 4x R-60Ms and the f-5s still couldn't catch the mig on a zoom climb...

Edited August 2, 2016 by Hadwell

[Hadwell]

Extra thrust:

zct4N6uQU24

[Hadwell]

or better yet

HhG8gLmELy0

[scaflight]

or better yet

HhG8gLmELy0

 

 

Thanks a but-ton for the track+video!

So if TheFace had had his radar on stby, he'd pretty much have had a good jump on you?