a fair AI fight?

jonatron5 · August 6, 2016

so I will openly admit that I am far from the best pilot in the world, but ive been doing dog fights sabre vs migs, and the mig wipes me everytime. Ive tried climbing, ive tried turning, its like Im slowly making a banking turn pulling 6 gs and strugiling to maintain conciousness while the mig ai pilots with no g suit(historically) are turning inside of my turns staying with me perfectly. they have perfect situational awareness. I wil be put running them on the deck at mach .8 pull up sharply try to roll and recover at a higher altitude, and not only will they stay on me but they will plot a seemingly p

erfect course to intercept once I roll out.

90% of my dogfight is spent with them on my tail.

it almost becomes humorus, if i loose sight of the guy i look up at my mirror pull sharply on the stick an 9 times out of 10 ill see him right there.

the only time i have a chance is when im operating at my best manuevering speed with full flaps and airbreaks to tighten my turning, and even then they stay with me.

ive heard that the ai by defualt use a "simple" flight model. is there a way to change it to a more realistic one? or is there a way to change mine to a less realistic one? becuase right now it feels like Im fighting a UFO

feel free to tell me Im just bad at dogfighting

shagrat · August 6, 2016

No, no way to turn off the SFM.

No way to win vs. the AI MiG-15bis... at least for me.

Only time I shot one down, was with the GAR-8 from a distance.

I stopped trying dogfighting when an AI “sniped“ me with a snapshot in a tight turn, from 400m away with a single cannon round into my tail. Then I tried pitting 2 AI MiG-15bis (lowest AI setting) against 8 F-86F Sabre (highest AI setting) and they wiped ALL Sabres out, without a single loss.

*sarcasm* We should rewrite history! With the Uber-MiG-15 the Russians and N. Koreans surely wiped out the inferior Sabre by the dozens. With history books portraying multiple kills for the Sabre, we obviously believe in one of the greatest propaganda campaigns of all time, it seems!*/sarcasm*

BinaryMan · August 6, 2016

Some very quick tips for sabre vs mig.

In a high speed turning match you will be equal.

In a climbing match the mig will beat you.

Getting behind a mig is doable but slightly difficult. you want to keep you speed from 250-320 knots, simply turn at the mig. You need to keep your nose low, do not try to climb while turning or speed up too much. going slower than 220 knots is bad too

Once you're relatively behind the mig is when the real tough part begins. The mig will try to use its climbing power to its advantage. Do not try to follow the mig into a climb if your airspeed is lower than 250. Instead keep your nose low trailing lower and behind the mig around 230-270 knots. You will be able to out turn the mig in this configuration. You will further find that the mig will continually climb and dive while turning to throw you off. Once you've gained around 290 knots of air speed you can finally follow the mig into the climb and go for the kill.

I've attached a track against a high skill ai mig.

blah.trk

jonatron5 · August 6, 2016

can you out turn the mig at that airspeed range?

shagrat · August 6, 2016

Doesn't help with the AI Sabres getting slaughtered.

Also the F-86F(!) should match the climb rate of the MiG-15bis and slightly out turn it below 20,000 ft. Even if we pretend it is an “E“ and the MiG-21bis is a tad bit better performing, the AI is incapable of matching the MiGs performance even with Sabre excellent skill vs. MiG average skill.

So the only scenario to do is intercept with x humans against x AI MiGs or PvP in MP.

Any “escort“ or CAP involving AI F-86F is useless, unless you “trigger detonate" some or better all of the MiGs upon nearing the Patrols... or they wipe out the Sabres, which isn't very realistic.

At least AI vs. AI with nearly identically performing planes should have a somehow balanced outcome over a couple of matches.

Currently AI Sabres can't beat MiGs... whatever the reason, something cries foul here.

jonatron5 · August 6, 2016

See i am admitedly not well versed on the history, but Im almost certain the mig outclimbs the sabre. From what ive read the mig was invisioned as a high altitude bomber interceptor/ escorter. and the sabre was designed as an air superiority fighter. So I can understand the mig having a much better climb rate, but at low altitudes the sabre should be turning circles on the migs. especially with the pilots lack of a Gsuit on the thing. (THATS A HUGE GAME CHANGER)

Now the mig does fire cannons, wich means limited ammo, and fire rate but very powerful shots. acompany that with the fact they have no capacity for guided missles, and I can understand how 2 good hits from a mig is the death of the sabre, where as the sabre has to spray bullets allover the mig to kill it.

By the same token however, I think the GAR-8 guided missile needs a tiny bit of improvement , becuase in its current state, if the enemy manuvers at all it completely trashes the shot. I understand they where very primitive guided missles, but I dont accept that they where as bad as the game portrays.

finally the automatic leading in the radar gunsight is slightly off, this might be a historical thing, but is likely a game bug.

fix these 3 issues and I think you have a potential for an amazing experiance

shagrat · August 6, 2016

See i am admitedly not well versed on the history, but Im almost certain the mig outclimbs the sabre. From what ive read the mig was invisioned as a high altitude bomber interceptor/ escorter. and the sabre was designed as an air superiority fighter. So I can understand the mig having a much better climb rate, but at low altitudes the sabre should be turning circles on the migs. especially with the pilots lack of a Gsuit on the thing. (THATS A HUGE GAME CHANGER)

The important points are, the F-86F (not the A or E!) that is modeled in DCS was updated to match the climb rate and the F did that pretty well.

The AI MiG outclimbs the Sabre because of the SFM... same problem exists for the P-51D AI SFM and others...

Historically the F-86F Sabre and MiGs-15 and MiG-15bis where pretty much a match. The major difference the better and extensive training of the US-Pilots, as only a few russian aces were training green north korean pilots.

Especially later in the war the toll on the MiGs was tremendous.

Numbers I've read, talk about 792 MiGs shot down vs. 110 Sabres (78 supposedly in air-to-air combat) between December 1950 and end of July 1953.

Let's say these are exaggerated by 10% for propaganda reasons and/or uncertain claims of the pilots, we still have a 1:6 or better kill rate in favor of the Sabre.

I'm sure my flying skills, won't match a US-Pilot's skills of the Korea war, but if I repeatedly pit AI Sabres on Excellent vs. AI MiGs on Average skills,they should at least once in a while manage to down a MiG?!

Try to pit 4 Sabres against 2 MiGs multiple times and see the results...

Tell me how many times you needed to repeat this to have the 4(!) AI Sabres shoot down the MiGs...

I have yet to see it... never happened. Sabres get wiped out all the time.

Now the mig does fire cannons, wich means limited ammo, and fire rate but very powerful shots. acompany that with the fact they have no capacity for guided missles, and I can understand how 2 good hits from a mig is the death of the sabre, where as the sabre has to spray bullets allover the mig to kill it.

By the same token however, I think the GAR-8 guided missile needs a tiny bit of improvement , becuase in its current state, if the enemy manuvers at all it completely trashes the shot. I understand they where very primitive guided missles, but I dont accept that they where as bad as the game portrays.

finally the automatic leading in the radar gunsight is slightly off, this might be a historical thing, but is likely a game bug.

fix these 3 issues and I think you have a potential for an amazing experiance

First of all we need the AI issue fixed!

Then it would be nice to have "Project GUNVAL" Sabres with their 4x 20mm Oerlikon cannons, as an option.

These heavy hitters mixed into a F-86F flight made for a nice surprise.

Third it would be nice if the SFM of the MiG better resembles the EFM performance, so it would not so easily outclimb the F-86F, as in real life the climb rate was pretty much the same for the F.

The heat seeking missiles (all of them) seem to have a bug at the moment, yet the GAR-8 accuracy was not even closely to modern AIM-9 and more a means to "force" your opponent to maneuver or best case go defensive.

Most kills were classic gun kills from close quarters. ;)

To sum it up, if I currently want to have fun with a brawl against AI flying 1950s jets I use the MiG-15bis, as in DCS it outperforms the AI F-86F and I have at least a chance to win!

The same scenario with a F-86F is horribly difficult if it is a one-on-one, two-vs-two or more is a lost cause! First your wingman gets killed then you stand against two "superior" AI MiGs which simply sucks...

And if we look at history at least the planes should be evenly matched, what can easily be tested pitting two AI flights against one another. If in 10 fights there is no single MiG downed, then there is something utterly wrong!

Take into account MiG AI is set to the lowest skill and Sabre AI to the highest even more so... :(

Edited August 6, 2016 by shagrat

Vandal71 · August 6, 2016

I find that the MIGs love to boom and zoom. Never follow them into the vertical. I keep them in sight while they roll over for another dive and try to roll in on them as they descend (just make sure they have no angle on you when they start the dive). If you time it just right you can gain enough speed at the bottom to follow them up through half of their ascent to the top. You may have just a few seconds to squeeze off rounds on them. I usually have to set this up several times before I get a successful hit. The biggest problem is they are like flying tanks and can take a massive amount of rounds.

I happened to see a Sabre pilots strategy on the show Dog Fights and have started using it to some success. I let a MIG on my six while flying low and go into a turning vertical corkscrew (wide and shallow) I watch him by looking over my shoulder until he can almost pull a bead on me then I drop power and roll over the top. The AI can't handle this maneuver and if you can pull it off it leaves them out of energy and in front of you.

I practice it and it works pretty well.

shagrat · August 6, 2016

I find that the MIGs love to boom and zoom. Never follow them into the vertical. I keep them in sight while they roll over for another dive and try to roll in on them as they descend (just make sure they have no angle on you when they start the dive). If you time it just right you can gain enough speed at the bottom to follow them up through half of their ascent to the top. You may have just a few seconds to squeeze off rounds on them. I usually have to set this up several times before I get a successful hit. The biggest problem is they are like flying tanks and can take a massive amount of rounds.

I happened to see a Sabre pilots strategy on the show Dog Fights and have started using it to some success. I let a MIG on my six while flying low and go into a turning vertical corkscrew (wide and shallow) I watch him by looking over my shoulder until he can almost pull a bead on me then I drop power and roll over the top. The AI can't handle this maneuver and if you can pull it off it leaves them out of energy and in front of you.

I practice it and it works pretty well.

Can you teach the Sabre AI to do this? ;)

It doesn't help mission builders, that human pilots can win against the MiG AI.

As soon, as you build a mission, where your AI wingmen are supposed to do a job, say escort and shoot down a MiG the mission won't work, as AI Sabres never win against AI MiG...

You may win a one-on-one with that maneuver, but you cannot do all the killing by yourself if it is more than a simple furball mission...

Try a 2 Sabres vs 4 MiGs furball. You will sure enough end up alone against the remaining MiGs, you have not killed, while your wingmen perished. :dunno:

jonatron5 · August 6, 2016

ok, im still a pretty new player, can you explain this technique in more depth?

jonatron5 · August 7, 2016

OK I tried out your suggested technique with limited success. I have my two tracks . 1v1 dogfights. the first vs an easy ai the last vs a hard. Please critique and provide feedback to me

1v1 easy.trk

1v1 hard.trk

xaoslaad · August 7, 2016

The AI F-86F's love to drag you into a turning fight, which is fine. They're better here, but it's not impossible to play their game with some hard rudder inputs and a gentle hand. Just wait 'til they shoot up into a stall. Once you learn to follow that and maintain control in the climb to stall you can rip them to shreds at the peak.

Recover, rinse, repeat. Very easy. Against the SFM AI anyway.

In reverse the only annoyance is that those .50's take forever to shred a MiG. But it can be done. If you can get lucky with a GAR-8 that's always nice. But they had all of maybe a 10% kill ratio in real life, and they're about on par in the game, so you can't rely on it. Heck I've seen the AI waste each other by accident when shooting at a maneuvering player.

Edited August 7, 2016 by xaoslaad

jonatron5 · August 7, 2016

I mean I understand why,they would spend money and time developing the missiles because they have had amazing results. But why on earth would they have fielded combat missions with a weapon that is 10x more likely to fail then to achieve a kill? I'm not saying it didn't happen. But damn that sounds terrible.

Also the missile is supposedly radar guided no? But when you fly you can get a lockon to the sun , so that makes me think its thermal guided?

Art-J · August 7, 2016

It's heat-seeker only, not much of a use for radar with it.

shagrat · August 7, 2016

I mean I understand why,they would spend money and time developing the missiles because they have had amazing results. But why on earth would they have fielded combat missions with a weapon that is 10x more likely to fail then to achieve a kill? I'm not saying it didn't happen. But damn that sounds terrible.

Also the missile is supposedly radar guided no? But when you fly you can get a lockon to the sun , so that makes me think its thermal guided?

Because if employed at the right moment it forces the opponent to react, or even better go defensive.

Like with a handgrenade it rarely kills and only sometimes wound the guys in a trench or fortified position. Yet, it forces them to keep there heads and hands in cover, so they can't shoot at you.

The GAR-8 is pretty useless close up unless you attack heavy bombers, but if you circle in on a pair of unsuspecting MiGs the GAR-8 can force them defensive and if you are lucky even kill one, as soon as they see you and start maneuvering... keep in mind the heat-seeking missiles seem to have an issue currently.

jonatron5 · August 7, 2016

Hm ok. Ill buy that logic. Why do my missiles only achieve lock when my radar gunsight gets a good lock?

shagrat · August 7, 2016

Hm ok. Ill buy that logic. Why do my missiles only achieve lock when my radar gunsight gets a good lock?

Coincidence? They should not depend on the radar... it is a simple heat-seeker.

Art-J · August 7, 2016

Hm ok. Ill buy that logic. Why do my missiles only achieve lock when my radar gunsight gets a good lock?

Because to get a radar lock You're aiming right at the target and get closer to it? Heatseeker likes these conditions as well :D.

BinaryMan · August 7, 2016

What really gets me about vs the mig15 ai is this

jonatron5 · August 7, 2016

well in terms of the aircraft sizes .50 caliber isnt that huge. not to mention these are metal aircraft with armor plating in critical areas, your going to have to hit it severeal times to get a kill on the thing. a half inch hole in a control surface of lifting body isnt alot. you have to get lucky and hit something mechanical, or hit it enough to achieve structural damage.

on the other hand a 20 mm hole will seriously tear something up

Svend_Dellepude · August 7, 2016

IMHO, forget about the missiles. The drag is gonna slow you down too much. Clean config, and most important: veeeery gentle on the stick.

The stick of the sabre is so sensitive, so you really have to focus on flying as clean lines as possible. Abrupt stick handlig is not doing you any good. AI have perfect flying skills, so they don't waste energy pulling too hard or bouncing around in the air.

shagrat · August 7, 2016

well in terms of the aircraft sizes .50 caliber isnt that huge. not to mention these are metal aircraft with armor plating in critical areas, your going to have to hit it severeal times to get a kill on the thing. a half inch hole in a control surface of lifting body isnt alot. you have to get lucky and hit something mechanical, or hit it enough to achieve structural damage.

on the other hand a 20 mm hole will seriously tear something up

Nope. It's a well known problem of the SFM damage model. Currently the hitzones get a percentage of damage according to the hitpoints of a weapon.

As long as all hitzones have at least 1% health left, you only see visual damage model. You need to "destroy" (0%) a hitzone for an effect. Best Wings or engine/cockpit.

On the opposite if AI hits a player plane, the AFM /EFM accurately simulates severe damage quickly.

Same in Multiplayer PvP. :ermm:

Edited August 7, 2016 by shagrat

jonatron5 · August 7, 2016

hmm thats actually really neat.

is there anychance of this ever being fixed?

Buzzles · August 7, 2016

I'd imagine so. ED are working on a new damage system for DCS aircraft.

As an aside, as a player if you want to shoot down Mig-15's currently without filling it entirely full of lead, just aim for the wing and wing roots. The fuselage is a bullet sponge, so never aim for that.

Vandal71 · August 8, 2016

Can you teach the Sabre AI to do this? ;)

It doesn't help mission builders, that human pilots can win against the MiG AI.
As soon, as you build a mission, where your AI wingmen are supposed to do a job, say escort and shoot down a MiG the mission won't work, as AI Sabres never win against AI MiG...
You may win a one-on-one with that maneuver, but you cannot do all the killing by yourself if it is more than a simple furball mission...

Try a 2 Sabres vs 4 MiGs furball. You will sure enough end up alone against the remaining MiGs, you have not killed, while your wingmen perished. :dunno:

Yeah, I was pretty much talking about 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2. The Sabre AI pilots are pretty bad. It's why I fly solo!!

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