Cheats: AUTO Aerial refueling

[probad]

completely fallacious reasoning from the op

 

do you know why aar isn't popular in publics? because it's filled with people who want nothing more than to pump up their killcounts. why would they want to spend time sitting behind a tanker when they can plow their airplane into the ground and get up in the air again in half the time instead?

people dont run low on fuel in this game, they run out of missiles first, because unlike irl it's not only 2 libyan migs coming at you once in 8 years, unlike irl people fire at everything on their scopes in hopes of a hit, and unlike irl people ripplefire their missiles. aar does not give them more missiles, so why even bother?

 

no amount of dumbing down aar will encourage aar to be used more, simply for the fact the reasons for aar irl are not present in this game. the only people who will continue to aar are those who already have an interest in aar in the first place.

Edited September 9, 2016 by probad

[Iku_CC]

ED needs to get the AI boom operator some training or make it easier to refuel till they do.

 

This IS an expert opinion.

 

Sierra

 

+1

 

This sounds best idea...better boom operator. On the other hand...auto aerial refuel dosn't sounds bad either...:). I manage to fly those Mapple Flag A10 refuel training missions (day/night) but they were hard to me...I learned to hate refueling at air..:D

Edited September 9, 2016 by Iku64

[bzhnono]

Not quite off topic. The suggestion was made with the implication that the lack of ability to perform AAR is hardware related and therefore an automatic cheat was justified.

In reality it's practice relayed. There's this myth that AAR ability is dependant on having some really expensive controllers or some magic joystick curve. Assuming your controllers aren't defective all it takes is lots of practice. Weeks.... But just practice.

 

Your signature bar tells me you know exactly what that means. :joystick:

 

Looks like ED already answered this one anyways.

Ohh yes...

Lots and lots of practice ;)

[shagrat]

completely fallacious reasoning from the op

 

do you know why aar isn't popular in publics? because it's filled with people who want nothing more than to pump up their killcounts. why would they want to spend time sitting behind a tanker when they can plow their airplane into the ground and get up in the air again in half the time instead?

people dont run low on fuel in this game, they run out of missiles first, because unlike irl it's not only 2 libyan migs coming at you once in 8 years, unlike irl people fire at everything on their scopes in hopes of a hit, and unlike irl people ripplefire their missiles. aar does not give them more missiles, so why even bother?

 

no amount of dumbing down aar will encourage aar to be used more, simply for the fact the reasons for aar irl are not present in this game. the only people who will continue to aar are those who already have an interest in aar in the first place.

Complete guessing and assuming on your side?!

 

I for example most exclusively fly the A-10C or M2000C in ground attacks, running "out-of-rockets" never was a problem, the Mirage's challenge is to stay on station, long enough after getting over the Area of Operations.

The A-10C often requires refuelling over longer missions.

Ever played OP Bactria or similar in MP with 4 Hogs, or are you just talking about Air-quake?

 

And for the 3rd time. The original post asks for an option(!)... One you can "block" server side.

It isn't that he wants us to be no longer allowed to manually AAR.

He asks for an OPTION for people who have difficulties, may it be their short throw, bad poti 20EUR sticks, or their lack of time, or willingness to learn that.

 

It looks to me, like a lot of people opposing this, simply do, because they are so proud of themselves after they mastered AAR...

 

I still need to hear a good argument against this option.

The only ones that came up were "I made it through practice and want others to suffer the same fate".

Or in a more positive way, "Accept the challenge! This is DCS."

 

On the other hand I never heard complaints about the auto-start, auto-stop cheats and nobody seems to have a problem, with simply deactivating "arcade modes" on their server?!

 

Most missions in Single Player coming with the modules start with an aircraft "hot on the ramp". I wonder why that is?!

 

From my point of view I would love the OPTION to decide, if today's a day were I can spend 15-20min precious time on another AAR practice in a mission, as an alternative to diverting back to base to refuel.

 

As a keybind, the refueling AI script and a code snippet from the ground refuel option, doesn't sound like a grueling week long task to me either, why not?

 

After 2.5 there is a lot of AI overhaul and optimizing overdue that needs attention, anyway.

If this can be done without spending a lot of time on it, go for it.

 

Will be a nice option for a lot of people.

Be it for whatever reason they need it.

Edited September 9, 2016 by shagrat

[shagrat]

But this wasn't the point of the threads author. The point was to implement it, for players with cheap (less precise) hardware.

 

And as I said, that's an excuse for not practise it.

Yep, no excuse, just a great option like the auto startup or the Huey's "autopilot"...

[Phantom453]

Personally I wouldn't use it. I don't even use auto start. However, I can't think of a good enough reason why this feature couldn't be added for those that want to use it. Why not go one step further and make the feature selectable in the ME or default game settings?

[shagrat]

Personally I wouldn't use it. I don't even use auto start. However, I can't think of a good enough reason why this feature couldn't be added for those that want to use it. Why not go one step further and make the feature selectable in the ME or default game settings?

That was the OPs request. An option, that can be blocked in the ME if the mission designer feels, it is necessary...

[Aginor]

I think as a server-choice option, and while still allowing "manual mode" it would be ok, no problem with that.

I would neither care nor use it myself, since I learned to cope with the bad tanker AI.

 

But honestly: Before they spend any programming resources on this I'd just like ED to fix the tanker AI so that the boom operator finally starts doing his job and everyone that is able to join up and stay in a halfway decent formation with the tanker can refuel.

[shagrat]

I think as a server-choice option, and while still allowing "manual mode" it would be ok, no problem with that.

I would neither care nor use it myself, since I learned to cope with the bad tanker AI.

 

But honestly: Before they spend any programming resources on this I'd just like ED to fix the tanker AI so that the boom operator finally starts doing his job and everyone that is able to join up and stay in a halfway decent formation with the tanker can refuel.

Absolutely agree.

 

But after the AI fixing or as a Part of it, this may be a useful option.

 

As you said, Not something to spend much resource on. More a drive by programming effort. :D

[SharpeXB]

If this feature is deemed so necessary because the tanker AI is "broken"

Post a track of "broken" AI. I'm sure it doesn't behave exactly like a skilled human operator. But it does work. "Broken" is likely on the players end.

You can see plenty of real AAR footage online and I don't see any boom operators chasing bouncing receivers all over the sky trying to connect. The receivers are steady. If you're steady like this in the game you'll connect with no problem.

Edited September 9, 2016 by SharpeXB

[Aginor]

Oh please come on, SharpeXB, that's just semantics.

 

How badly does someone have to do his job to say he isn't doing it at all?

 

I can call it broken, or I can call it "an abysmally bad designed, completely unrealistic feature that is in desperate need to be reworked because it completely breaks immersion since it clearly doesn't work like in real life AND even needlessly makes the procedure harder"

Take every tanker track or video ever made in DCSW and compare it to a real life video.

 

"Broken" is the more friendly and shorter version and I use it since I am a friendly person, that's all. :)

 

Can I tank? Hell yes, I can. I do it several times a week since years.

 

Does it have to be perfect? No.

 

What should happen to allow me to not call it utterly broken is _at least_ this:

 

- You fly into pre-contact position and the boom stays where it is.

- If you call "ready pre-contact" the boom operator tells you "hell no, dude" when you are in a dangerous or otherwise really bad position, instead of clearing you for contact.

- The boom operator retracts the boom if you do something bad. and tells you what to do if necessary, such as "hey dude! fly lower! Where did you learn to refuel?"

- when you are stabilized in the right position he moves the boom toward the receptacle and doesn't point at you with the boom all the time, keeping it one or two feet from your nose, which is really bad.

- if you are connected and you start drifting away and not correcting, he tells you.

- when you disconnect (either because you can't hold position or because your tanks are full) he moves the boom away from your aircraft

 

Would that be a realistic way of refueling? Still not perfect by quite a margin. But much better than now. Now it is broken. Even though you can adjust with a bit of skill and practice. ;)

 

 

EDIT: Also what would be nice: If you can't keep up because of ordnance or whatever, tell the tanker pilot. He may do something to help you, like flying a bit slower.

EDIT: Added some smilies to show that I really don't mean anything bad to anyone.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Aginor

[SharpeXB]

Oh please come on, SharpeXB, that's just semantics.

 

How bad does someone have to do his job to say he isn't doing it at all?

 

I can call it broken, or I can call it "an abysmally bad designed, completely unrealistic feature that is in desperate need to be reworked because it completely breaks immersion since it clearly doesn't work like in real life"

Take every tanker track or video ever made in DCSW and compare it to a real life video.

 

Broken is the more friendly and shorter version and I use it since I am a friendly person, that's all.

 

Can I tank? Hell yes, I can. I do it several times a week since years.

 

Does it have to be perfect? No.

 

What should happen to allow me to not call it utterly broken is _at least_ this:

 

- You fly into pre-contact position and the boom stays where it is.

- If you call "ready pre-contact" the boom operator tells you "hell no, dude" when you are in a dangerous or otherwise really bad position, instead of clearing you for contact.

- The boom operator retracts the boom if you do something bad. and tells you what to do if necessary, such as "hey dude! fly lower! Where did you learn to refuel?"

- when you are stabilized in the right position he moves the boom toward the receptacle and doesn't point at you with the boom all the time, keeping it one or two feet from your nose, which is really bad.

- if you are connected and you start drifting away and not correcting, he tells you.

- when you disconnect (either because you can't hold position or because your tanks are full) he moves the boom away from your aircraft

 

Would that be a realistic way of refueling? Still not perfect by quite a margin. But much better than now. Now it is broken. Even though you can adjust with a bit of skill and practice.

Track please. We can tell you what you need to improve.

 

If the boom doesn't try to connect. Did you press the nws button and reset? Did the tanker say "return pre contact" which I assume means you need to back off any try again.

 

Are you in the right position to connect?

 

The tanker doesn't need to tell you you're drifting away, you can see that yourself.

 

The AI does not disconnect correctly. That's true. It just moves the boom back to its original position and not pulling the straw back like reality. In fact it goes right through the nose of your plane. But it doesn't cause any damage to you or even cause a collision. It's just animation. But it would be a nice fix and probably not too hard.

 

Would that be a realistic way of refueling?

Like this. Check out how steady these guys are.

 

Edited September 9, 2016 by SharpeXB

[Aginor]

Excuse me, I thought I did tell you I have no problems with refueling. I do not have a problem with it at all.

 

It is still broken.

And yes since the last version of DCSW the boom DOES cause damage to your plane at disconnect. It happens from time to time. Mostly if you are not in a good position, but sometimes even if you are.

EDIT: Sometimes you won't even notice, but the log shows it after the mission.

 

EDIT: sniped by your video post. Good example that shows how bad it is in DCSW. That guy is about as stable as I am. And do you see how the boom operator, you know, operates the boom? Especially at disconnect but also when connecting? That's how it should work! Also he doesn't point the boom toward the plane. He waits until the A-10 stabilizes, and then the boom operator moves the boom to the airplane, not vice versa.

 

EDIT: Of course in DCSW many people don't fly like in real life, which causes situation that don't happen in real life and the sim has to handle those too. No problem. But in DCSW you can do maneuvering below that tanker that would cause every sane boom operator to immediately disconnect, which they don't in DCSW.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Aginor

[GGTharos]

No, you are wrong - dead wrong - about people needing to practice.

 

Yes, you are correct - there is some form of bug that affects:

 

1) Single player

2) Mission host in multi-player

 

Where the boom operator seems to be off on a break and you literally have to fly your receptacle to the boom for a connection.

 

It works fine for an MP client though - as long as you're inside the 'contact' box, the boomie will plug you. It's not a huge box, but it's not flying your receptacle to the boom, either.

 

Regardless, that's no excuse for shoddy flying - people need to practice, period. You shouldn't have to fly the receptacle to the boom, but there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to.

 

And yes, either myself of Mavrick have logged this bug internally.

 

You're wrong. People don't need to practice. ED needs to get the AI boom operator some training or make it easier to refuel till they do.

 

This IS an expert opinion.

 

Sierra

 

"Warning - Flying two aircraft together in close vertical proximity is inherently dangerous."

[lmp]

It looks to me, like a lot of people opposing this, simply do, because they are so proud of themselves after they mastered AAR...

 

Not true in my case at least. I don't have a superiority complex. Play the game the way you want to. I just see it as something fairly complex to do that wouldn't benefit too many players. I suspect most people who have enough time to regularly burn all the fuel in the A-10's tanks (not to mention mastering the plane first!), have enough time to practice AAR.

[shagrat]

Not true in my case at least. I don't have a superiority complex. Play the game the way you want to. I just see it as something fairly complex to do that wouldn't benefit too many players. I suspect most people who have enough time to regularly burn all the fuel in the A-10's tanks (not to mention mastering the plane first!), have enough time to practice AAR.

 

I can just say how it is for me, and I more than a couple times RTB'd as I wasn't able to AAR in missions taking 2-3 hours plus.

 

As I said before, the AI "refueling" is already scripted in the game, so it shouldn't be rocket science to switch control input to the AI script let it position the plane ("Object") and either wait the appropriate time, then set fuel to 100% or the "complex" version, use the ground refuel script part from the Rearm&refuel function to fill the tanks...

 

No rocket science, no complex code development, basically just a button to switch an existing feature from the AI on for the player/client aircraft...

 

When it's done hand back control...

[lmp]

Players and AI use different flight models, switching back and forth between them could be a problem. A possibly simpler solution would be to allow modifying fuel load via scripting (if it's not already possible). This way you could design your missions so that within a certain radius of a tanker you have an F10 command to refill your tanks "magically".

[SharpeXB]

If you've practiced enough to stay connected, which is more difficult. Getting connected shouldn't be a problem.

[majapahit]

Ya know I was a Boom Operator for 22 years in both the KC-135 and KC-10. I can say with a certain degree of authority that having trouble with Air Refuefing is NOT just lack of practice for a very simple and Basic Reason...The AI Boom Operator NEVER gets any better.

 

I made thousands of contacts during my career, several hundred of them with A-10s. I watched and listened to hundreds of receiver Air Refuelings sitting directly behind the pilot as he worked to get into the contact position. In real life the receiver pilot AND the boom operator must work together to successfully complete the operation. The receiver pilot maneuvers his aircraft to the contact position and the boomer MOVES THE BOOM to make contact. In real life if a pilot can fly reasonably good formation, air refueling is Safe and effective. Fact.

 

This simply isn't the case in DCS. The AI boom Operator is unqualified and needs additional training. People won't hesitate to yell and scream if a weapon doesn't work exactly the way they think it should or if an instrument doesn't display exactly the way it does in real life...but as soon as someone says they can't refuel experts tell them "they just need to practice".

 

You're wrong. People don't need to practice. ED needs to get the AI boom operator some training or make it easier to refuel till they do.

 

This IS an expert opinion.

 

Sierra

 

"Warning - Flying two aircraft together in close vertical proximity is inherently dangerous."

 

What this man says,

and he's the real deal.

[SharpeXB]

Where the boom operator seems to be off on a break and you literally have to fly your receptacle to the boom for a connection.

From what I experience that's actually what causes the operator to not connect, I see tracks where people are flying their nose into the boom wondering why it won't connect.

Just hold steady in the right position and it will connect to you.

 

Usual reasons I see in posted tracks

- not stable behind the tanker or actually closing into the boom instead of just holding position

- ready light is off, forgot to press the NWS button after a disconnect.

- if you get really out of position the tanker says "return pre contact" which I think means you return back to that position and come in again. Sometimes you even need to press F1 and request contact again.

[shagrat]

Players and AI use different flight models, switching back and forth between them could be a problem. A possibly simpler solution would be to allow modifying fuel load via scripting (if it's not already possible). This way you could design your missions so that within a certain radius of a tanker you have an F10 command to refill your tanks "magically".

Actually a good idea, with the script option apart from zones are still 2D.

 

But executing the SFM script isn't much different from leaving the plane to jump into a CA slot and then back again.

As soon as you enter a vehicle your aircraft switches to AI and SFM like any other AI plane and back to AFM when you enter the cockpit again.

 

As I said, it is already in the sim and should not be much effort.

[lmp]

You can set a condition for max and min altitude. If you set the tanker to orbit at a fixed altitude, it should be enough. Also you could probably script it so that you need to remain in the zone for some time before you get your fuel, so it would make you somewhat more vulnerable and take you out of the fight... just some of my ideas ☺.

[shagrat]

From what I experience that's actually what causes the operator to not connect, I see tracks where people are flying their nose into the boom wondering why it won't connect.

Just hold steady in the right position and it will connect to you.

 

Usual reasons I see in posted tracks

- not stable behind the tanker or actually closing into the boom instead of just holding position

- ready light is off, forgot to press the NWS button after a disconnect.

- if you get really out of position the tanker says "return pre contact" which I think means you return back to that position and come in again. Sometimes you even need to press F1 and request contact again.

The request wasn't about "How to learn practising AAR" or the like.

There are dozens of threads, videos, manuals out there with all the tipps, procedures and so on.

 

The idea is, to have an option to let the AI do the job, when you feel it is to hard, or simply are not in the mood, don't have time for it.

 

What is wrong with you guys, that you want to torture people through the AAR hell at all costs?!

 

Nobody wants to take your AAR fun away, if you like to do it. Just an option for people who do NOT enjoy the challenge for whatever reason.

 

...and I have to agree with Sierra99, it is extremely hard in DCS.

[Sierra99]

If you've practiced enough to stay connected, which is more difficult. Getting connected shouldn't be a problem.

 

Sharpie, telling everyone "all you need to do is practice" is counter productive. There is more to this than lack of skill or profiency. However, we can't really say a "Cheat / Simplification" is appropriate because...it may be broke...not just " too hard ".

 

In real life the "Contact position" is "A position within the AR envelope where the boom operator can safely establish a contact." Comparing my real world experience against my DCS experience it's pretty obvious the AI boom Operator isn't looking for you to be in the envelope...he wants you at a specific point in space behind the tanker. If this is the case, the "Contact Position" (the area deemed correct for the AI Boom to make a contact) is too small... If the contact position is correct and all you need be is in the area for it to work, the "AI boom operator" is broken if he doesn't regularly establish contact. You can compare this to hovering with a helicopter to put up a sling load.

 

To pick up a sling load you must hover over the target in a specific envelope a specific period of time before the load is "Hooked up". If you drift out of position and you must start again...

 

I would >think< the logic for AR would be the similar...keep the receptacle in a specific location behind the tanker for a specific period of time and the AI boom will make a contact. If that target area is unrealistically small, is not a question of practice, it's a question of programming.

 

Knowing how it's "supposed" to work Is the first step in figuring out where the problem lies. It could be something as simple as adjusting some values in the code... or handing the AI Boom

Operator a frying pan and a Beretta and seeing which one he drops.

 

Sierra

[Sierra99]

Like this. Check out how steady these guys are.

 

Sharpie how far did the boom operator extend the boom to make contact the contact? More importantly when did he start lining up with the receptacle? 20 feet? 10? 5? > I < know when both of these things happened....Do You?

 

Lining up with the receptacle and extending to make the contact are perfect examples of tasks the AI Boom Operator doesn't do that makes AR more difficult than it should be.

 

Part of being able to be "steady" is NOT having to work for 5 minutes to get in exactly the right spot so the boom will plug you.

 

Sierra