Cheats: AUTO Aerial refueling

[Sierra99]

For starters the AI planes use an algorithm and datatable based SFM to "fly" unlike the players AFM/EFM aircraft, that actually interact with the air simulation, pressure, engine, hydraulics etc.

 

If you watch AI closely you can see some maneuvers they do to keep up or in position that are impossible to perform as a player in the AFM.

 

The tankers are no different...

 

What Sierra99 pointed out with the boom "popping up" is that it forces you to be OUT of the perfect envelope to make contact.

So you practice, practice, practice only to learn to be in a position to refuel, that you wouldn't want to be in compared to real life. And on top it makes it more difficult...

 

Shagrat do you know how the envelope limits are modeled?

 

 

Sierra

[shagrat]

Shagrat do you know how the envelope limits are modeled?

 

 

Sierra

No, most likely as a function in a binary, as there is no script/definition in the usual suspect locations. :(

[SharpeXB]

What Sierra99 pointed out with the boom "popping up" is that it forces you to be OUT of the perfect envelope to make contact.

So you practice, practice, practice only to learn to be in a position to refuel, that you wouldn't want to be in compared to real life. And on top it makes it more difficult...

So in the game, since you know the boom is going to pop up, don't fly to it. The boom pops up into the "correct" position so don't fly to it when it's hanging down.

The correct position looks like this

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2891930&postcount=60

The most repeated advice on AAR is "don't fly off the boom, fly off the tanker"

So it shouldn't matter what the AI boom is doing. Don't look at it. Fly formation with the tanker.

Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. So don't practice wrong by trying to fly off the boom.

Edited September 10, 2016 by SharpeXB

[shagrat]

But the request wasn't "how can I practice", but "can we have an option to automate, if we don't want to practice the rest of our lives"... especially if what we learn is wrong and may get fixed later and we are back to square one.

I can get a second or two with "contact" I know I could just waste my Saturdays 3 hours of DCS multiplayer time by practising AAR, I simply don't want to, as I enjoy the actual mission stuff much more than hours of AAR practice...

 

Again everybody knows by now, that you are perfect at AAR , congratulations!!!

 

Can we now get back on topic?!

[shagrat]

So in the game, since you know the boom is going to pop up, don't fly to it. The boom pops up into the "correct" position so don't fly to it when it's hanging down.

The correct position looks like this

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2891930&postcount=60

The most repeated advice on AAR is "don't fly off the boom, fly off the tanker"

So it shouldn't matter what the AI boom is doing. Don't look at it. Fly formation with the tanker.

 

YOu mean when I'm behind the Tanker ignoring the boom, holding postion perfectly and the boom operator rams the boom into my plane it is my fault? Ahhh, okay, that explains a lot.:doh:

[SharpeXB]

YOu mean when I'm behind the Tanker ignoring the boom, holding postion perfectly and the boom operator rams the boom into my plane it is my fault? Ahhh, okay, that explains a lot.:doh:

You're not supposed to fly off the boom. Just watch the tanker. In some planes like the F-15 you can't even see the boom, since it's behind your head

Edited September 10, 2016 by SharpeXB

[Sierra99]

So in the game, since you know the boom is going to pop up, don't fly to it. The boom pops up into the "correct" position so don't fly to it when it's hanging down.

The correct position looks like this

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2891930&postcount=60

The most repeated advice on AAR is "don't fly off the boom, fly off the tanker"

So it shouldn't matter what the AI boom is doing. Don't look at it. Fly formation with the tanker.

Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. So don't practice wrong by trying to fly off the boom.

 

Sharpe you're completely missing the point...The Boom shouldn't trail in the wrong position in the first place...The fact t does makes the entire evolution suspect. What part of that is hard to understand? Perfect practice makes perfect...However if you practice being perfect against a broken training aid...You're practicing to be perfectly wrong.

[SharpeXB]

Sharpe you're completely missing the point...The Boom shouldn't trail in the wrong position in the first place...The fact t does makes the entire evolution suspect. What part of that is hard to understand? Perfect practice makes perfect...However if you practice being perfect against a broken training aid...You're practicing to be perfectly wrong.

Sure, The AI is acting as if the operator is asleep and wakes up when you get close. But since you know that as the player it's not a problem. Just ignore the boom and fly to the correct position regardless. When the AI wakes up you'll be in the right place.

[shagrat]

That still doesn't have anything to do with the original post... We already have dozens of threads outlining this, how to, how not to... Doesn't matter, the request is can we have a button to press and get rid of it.

 

EDIT - you are aware this is the wish list(!!!) area? And you are trying to tell people what they have to wish for?!

:doh:

And in the F-15C you fly according to the lights on the tankers belly that guide you into the spot... Just saying.

Edited September 11, 2016 by shagrat
Corrected auto correction...

[SharpeXB]

And in the F-15C you fly according to the lights on the tankers belly that guide you into the spot... Just saying.

Right. You're flying formation with the tanker, not the boom. You can't even see the boom.

That's how you should be doing it in every plane.

[shagrat]

Well, seems the subject matter experts (Sierra99 and Eddie) disagree... What qualifies you as an AAR instructor, again?!

Wait, you "mastered" it in a flight simulation that seems to do a lot "different" to "wrong" compared to RL.

 

Still this is not the point of this feature request.

Edited September 11, 2016 by shagrat

[SharpeXB]

What qualifies you as an AAR instructor, again?!

Well I did pass all the Maple Flag Qualification Courses for the A-10C, but you don't have to listen to my advice.

 

Wait, you "mastered" it in a flight simulation that seems to do a lot "different" to "wrong" compared to RL.

This is a game. A very realistic one to be sure but it's still a game. So you can keep arguing and discussing those differences or just learn to play it. I'm not disagreeing with anything those who have RL experience are saying. But this isn't real life.

Edited September 11, 2016 by SharpeXB

[shagrat]

What qualifies you as an AAR instructor, again?!

/QUOTE]

Well I did pass all the Maple Flag Qualification Courses for the A-10C, but you don't have to listen to my advice.

Yep, that is the whole point. Your advice does not help with the request.

 

It is like a guy at a car dealer asking for a car with automatic gear shift, then YOU drop in and try to explain how he don't need an automatic as it is just practice, practice, practice to learn how to drive a manual gear shift...

 

We should stop clogging this request thread with this. I agree, we have a different view on this, can't be helped.

[SharpeXB]

Yep, that is the whole point. Your advice does not help with the request.

 

It is like a guy at a car dealer asking for a car with automatic gear shift, then YOU drop in and try to explain how he don't need an automatic as it is just practice, practice, practice to learn how to drive a manual gear shift...

 

We should stop clogging this request thread with this. I agree, we have a different view on this, can't be helped.

The request was already responded to by ED on the first page

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2895560&postcount=9

[ApoNOOB]

Moderator is not ED dev. I don't know why half of the post's in this thread are from you, without really adding something, just arguing semantics. :)

 

On topic: I agree completely and this wish has my support.

[SharpeXB]

Moderator is not ED dev. I don't know why half of the post's in this thread are from you, without really adding something, just arguing semantics. :)

 

On topic: I agree completely and this wish has my support.

SZ is not a developer but he's an ED Tester and tends to be pretty knowledgeable about what they're working on.

 

Some other sims do in fact have an AI Autopilot feature that would fly the entire mission for you if you wanted or take over whenever you press the key. So if DCS had that, sure you'd just request refueling, or landing, press "A" and the plane would just fly itself. It can be done.

But it doesn't seem like something ED would do.

[ApoNOOB]

Has been stated time and time again that moderators of the forum do NOT speak for ED. Not moderators, not testers - only devs speak for ED. So please stop pretending there was an official answer from ED and everyone should just 'practice some more'.

[BIGNEWY]

Lets not take this completely off topic.

 

Devs will look at this request, but the chances of getting a reply are slim.

 

As a community we all give advice and offer solutions, so lets keep it friendly.

[shagrat]

-Deleted-

 

Bignewy is right... Happens on EDs terms anyway.

 

Has been stated time and time again that moderators of the forum do NOT speak for ED. Not moderators, not testers - only devs speak for ED. So please stop pretending there was an official answer from ED and everyone should just 'practice some more'.

 

And it's the same for us ED Translators, as well! ...and we do test in parallel, as well, just not the main focus. :smilewink:

[104th_Maverick]

This was an interesting read :D

 

Here's the facts bro's ....

 

AAR in DCS Single Player is bugged, it has been for a while now.

 

You will notice that the boom operator basically does nothing and the pilot has to fly the aircraft into the boom.

 

This is not correct or realistic. What should happen is the pilot positions the aircraft below the tanker and the boom operator manoeuvres the boom into contact with the aircraft. It's not your job to 'connect' with the tanker that's his job! The contract is .... he works on giving you gas, you work on not killing everybody!

 

This actually does happen when flying as a client in MP!

 

It will not work if you are the host of a mission, only when you are a client to a server. You will notice the difference immediately.

 

In SP the Boom Operator doesn't move the boom laterally he only extends or retracts it, or will often slam the boom into the aircraft at the last second before connecting.

However if you observe an F-15C refuelling in Multiplayer you will notice straight away that the Boom Operator moves the boom laterally to connect with the aircraft. You do not have to be at an absolute point in space behind the aircraft, you just need to 'in the box'. This is what should happen in Single Player but doesn't.

 

While connecting to the tanker in SP is not impossible it is more difficult than in MP, however with lots of practice it can be done in SP with relative ease, which is where a lot of these arguments are coming from I think.

 

Obviously A-10 refuelling is different from F-15C but the problem is the same, the boom operator works different in MP than he does in SP.

 

The difference is in SP you have to position the aircraft exactly directly under the boom for the operator to connect. In multiplayer all you have to do is be 'in the box' by using the PDL lights under the tanker. As long as you have two green lights in the middle and you're not to far off the Yellow center line you will get gas!

 

Shut up and practice does have merit though, everyone who can AAR without drama in DCS does so because of time spent in the seat training to refuel.

 

However with that said, I can totally understand the frustrations of clients who go to train AAR in SP and find it way more difficult than anticipated due to this bug. While I think the idea of this 'cheat system' would help absolute beginners I think many people who are struggling with AAR do so because they are trying in Single Player and are unaware of this refuelling bug.

This is causing many people to believe AAR is way harder than it actually is.

 

The advice I always give is do ALL your AAR training online!

 

Get a friend to host a server for you running an AAR mission and connect as a client, or even better, get on the Virtual Aerobatics Server and fly to one of their tankers with your friend!

 

Tankers changing speed does happen, as already stated this is due to the orbit speed being set as ground speed, there is no option for mission makers to set a mach or airspeed to hold.

 

Unless you are a total beginner in DCS you don't really need any cheat for AAR, its actually very manageable after some practice provided your doing it the right way.

I've trained several complete liabilities behind the tanker to refuel safely without incident, so I've seen for myself first hand many times how a bit of training can really turn someone's skills around fast. A lot of it is mental too, it's incredibly easy for mild panic to set in right after contact, once you know how to do it properly and get some experience doing it, it becomes much easier to listen to that little voice in your head saying "relax...relax, just relax bro we got this ... relax!"

 

Watch some youtube videos on how it should be done in your aircraft, grab a buddy and get online in the VA server and grind it out friends.

 

F-15C AAR at Night

[SharpeXB]

;2899038']

You will notice that the boom operator basically does nothing and the pilot has to fly the aircraft into the boom.

Don't fly your plane into the boom, just hold steady there and it will connect. The boom operator really is not the hardest part of this. If you have the practice enough to stay connected through a whole refueling, then connecting in the first place should be no problem at all.

 

;2899038']

The advice I always give is do ALL your AAR training online!

Trying to practice AAR in multiplayer wastes too much time starting your aircraft and finding the tanker etc. You just need an SP mission that air starts you behind it and keep practicing. Plus if it's actually more difficult in SP as you claim, then SP practice is better because it's more challenging.

 

;2899038']Tankers changing speed does happen, as already stated this is due to the orbit speed being set as ground speed, there is no option for mission makers to set a mach or airspeed to hold.

I've never seen the tanker change speed while I am connected to it. Please post a track of this behavior. A KC-135 can't possibly change speed that fast compared to your fighter in any case unless the FM is just bonkers. All the differential speed you see when refueling is coming from your own plane. What you're saying is perhaps true from a computer code standpoint. But your own aircraft handling during AAR creates relative speed differences 100x as much.

 

I'm not against DCS having an AI Autopilot if they want to add one. But the topic of AAR always brings up these superfluous items that aren't the real issue. This task is just difficult and requires practice. The game is not broken. DCS is just a difficult sim, period. Everything about it requires learning and practice. AAR is no exception.

This sort of stuff just scares people away from even trying it if they think the game is "broken"

 

PS awesome video :thumbup:

Edited September 13, 2016 by SharpeXB

[shagrat]

This guy is unbelievable... :doh:

 

Either he can't read very good, or he is trolling the hell out of this thread. :megalol:

 

@Bignewy - can we just put the request in Mantis and close this thread?

[Yurgon]

Don't fly your plane into the boom, [...]

 

*Plonk*

[Sierra99]

Lets not take this completely off topic.

 

Devs will look at this request, but the chances of getting a reply are slim.

 

As a community we all give advice and offer solutions, so lets keep it friendly.

 

Bignewy would it be possible to get a little more information regarding some of the specifics mentioned? It would be nice to know if this is bugged or operating as programmed.

 

I honestly believe a "cheat" is unnecessary. In my opinion and based on simple tests I've run...the Tankers are "bent". They work but have issues.are they show stoppers. No. Would it nice to get fixed...sure, someday.

 

Sierra

[BIGNEWY]

I am not a dev and I do not know the specifics, what I will say is the last time I was speaking with an ED team member about refuelling it was acknowledged it needed revamping / tweaking.

 

I don't imagine it is high priority, and I personally don't think auto refuelling is something that would happen, but I have been wrong before :)