Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 9

[*Rage*]

See above for an example. Just talking about max speed is useless.

[microvax]

530D performs better than the 7M. Need I say more? There is no 100% equal matchup, but the closest is ER vs 7M vs 530D.

 

I do not think theese numbers justify your conclusion, it shows that the R27 have a pretty unbelievable drag chute built in, that works in favour of the aim7m at longer ranges while the way higher impulse works in favour of the r27ER at shorter ranges.

 

Thats why I put speed, speed loss and range here.

 

It is true, that at some range beyond N miles the Aim7m and the R27ER become a lot more comparable then the R27R and the AIM7M due to the way higher drag of the r27 series in DCS.

 

But given the situation, that the R27 still has incredibly high drag and is comparable to the aim7m somewhere beyond N miles kinematically, that is implying that before that N miles range the R27ER way outperforms the AIM7M in terms of kinematic performance due to the higher impulse burn needed to equal out kinematically beyond N miles with higher drag.

 

Again I do not make judgement about the combat effectiveness. Not at all. I do not have enough data for that.

I am just questioning the numbers you use in support of your argument that aim7m vs r27ER is a more balanced setup then aim7m vs r27r. Since from a numbers standpoint it doesnt make a lot of sense. If theese numbers where in vacuum, sure then I would whole heartedly agree but given we are fighting in the atmosphere, and that drag is quadratic with speed I could not agree less.

[based on those numbers, for the last time based on the kinematic performance]

[microvax]

See above for an example. Just talking about max speed is useless.

 

See above for an example. Just talking about max range in atmosphere is useless.

[Frostie]

Just leaving that here:

 

R27R max speed 1760kts

AIM7 max speed 1550kts

 

R27ER max speed 2280kts

 

Thats avg across altitudes.

 

R27R effective range ~8nm

AIM7 effective range ~10nm

 

r27ER effective range ~12nm

Drag is a key factor.

 

Attacking an aircraft that is moving 30 degrees off the nose.

 

Launch parameters

6000m (20,000 ft)

Mach 0.9

 

R-27R hits at 30km max

max speed 3180kph

time to max speed 7sec

duration at max 1sec

time to hit target 43sec

 

AIM-7M hits at 41km (22nm) max

max speed 2600kph

time to max speed 5sec

duration at max 11sec

time to hit target 1min

 

R-27ER hits at 44km max

max speed 4080kph

time to max speed 11sec

duration at max speed 1sec

time to hit target 52sec

Edited March 19, 2017 by Frostie

[ZHeN]

Are there any? I only saw messages about jtac groups/their targets getting killed, but it was never mentioned by whom.

Actually this feature is what I really miss the most after my 200hrs+ spent on the TAW's Kaukasus Offensive

 

has anyone noticed 'time to lives reset' bug ? example: I join the server right after restart, so I have three hours of play ahead, 'time to lives reset' shows two hours left (less than one session), but at the end of the session lives are still not reset and showing (for instance) 1h 30min left ... as if 'time to lives reset' elapsed much slower than the server/real time...

 

once I joined at 30min to lives reset time, but actually had to wait for more than an hour and a half for them to reset ...

- doctor, sometimes I feel like everyone's ignoring me. may be I should speak some other language ??

[microvax]

Drag is a key factor.

 

Attacking an aircraft that is moving 30 degrees off the nose.

 

Launch parameters

6000m (20,000 ft)

Mach 0.9

 

R-27R hits at 30km max

max speed 3180kph

time to max speed 7sec

duration at max 1sec

time to hit target 43sec

 

AIM-7M hits at 41km (22nm) max

max speed 2600kph

time to max speed 5sec

duration at max 11sec

time to hit target 1min

 

R-27ER hits at 44km max

max speed 4080kph

time to max speed 11sec

duration at max speed 1sec

time to hit target 52sec

 

Good data !

 

Yep, I noticed the severe drag difference once I looked at the charts over time, thats why I added the speed dropoff data points. And tbh by looking at the speed over time chart of an r27 flying through atmosphere it doesnt make a lot of sense to me from what I know about aerodynamics.

 

And beyond a certain range I, as said, agree fully that the ER kinematic performance is way more comparable to the Aim7m then the r27 is to the aim7m.

What that implicitly states though is that before that range, the ER has a lot better kinematic performance then the AIM7M. And thats not stating straight away the setup would be 'unbalanced'.

Why I am at least skeptical about the statement that the ER vs aim7M scenario would produce more balanced metrics then the R vs aim7 scenario is, because I rarely see engagements happen successfully beyond the ranges where the ER outperforms the AIM7.

Again anywhere where the "I think and cant prove data wise" zone begins the ice is very thin and I avoid to go there. So yeah, dunno.

 

I am totally up for running a comparison run for a week if we can record statistics in a meaningfull way. Would be interested how it turns out in the end. :)

[Frostie]

The duration the AIM-7 keeps speed up to 2600kph is 16seconds, at this time of flight the R-27R is decelerating at 1900kph and the R27ER is down to 3000kph.

 

IMO there is no right or wrong way about it, whichever face off is flown there is unbalance. But with the addition of the very fast 530D things get even harder for R-27R carriers.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Frostie

[apocom]

Just leaving that here:

 

R27R max speed 1760kts

AIM7 max speed 1550kts

 

R27ER max speed 2280kts

 

Thats avg across altitudes.

 

R27R effective range ~8nm

AIM7 effective range ~10nm

 

r27ER effective range ~12nm

 

Even your data supports what I've said. The Aim7M has 25% more range than the R27R, while the R27ER has only 20% more range than the AIM7, and is even closer to the 530D.

 

I don't understand why haveing 20% more range is vastly overpowered, while having 25% more range is pretty balanced.

[levanoga]

Engaging at max range with DCS missiles? Are you people for real? Most of my Aim-7 launches were at 3nm max head on and the only thing the bandit had to do was launch a 27T or R-73, turn around and run.

[*Rage*]

Engaging at max range with DCS missiles? Are you people for real? Most of my Aim-7 launches were at 3nm max head on and the only thing the bandit had to do was launch a 27T or R-73, turn around and run.

 

You're doing it wrong.

[microvax]

The duration the AIM-7 keeps speed up to 2600kph is 16seconds, at this time of flight the R-27R is decelerating at 1900kph and the R27ER is down to 3000kph.

 

IMO there is no right or wrong way about it, whichever face off is flown there is unbalance. But with the addition of the very fast 530D things get even harder for R-27R carriers.

 

Agreed.

[microvax]

Even your data supports what I've said. The Aim7M has 25% more range than the R27R, while the R27ER has only 20% more range than the AIM7, and is even closer to the 530D.

 

I don't understand why haveing 20% more range is vastly overpowered, while having 25% more range is pretty balanced.

 

Speed+Drag is the important metric which leads to range.

 

Range on its own in atmosphere is not a very good metric to judge missile lethality.

 

[You can have a very low drag missile which is slow and has wings and has hundreds of miles of range and you can have a very fast missile that has huge drag which goes 20nm crazy fast and then basically falls out of the sky].

[Frostie]

Even your data supports what I've said. The Aim7M has 25% more range than the R27R, while the R27ER has only 20% more range than the AIM7, and is even closer to the 530D.

 

I don't understand why haveing 20% more range is vastly overpowered, while having 25% more range is pretty balanced.

 

Up to about 4km distance travelled both AIM-7 and R-27R have a similar profile the 7 accelerates quicker while the R hits a higher max speed (at about 3km), but after 4km the AIM-7 leaves the R in its wake.

 

With the ER though it reaches out 7.5km when the other two hit 4.5km distance travelled, all at 10seconds.

 

20sec distance missile travelled

R 8km 1600kph

7 10km 2100kph

ER 14.5km 2500kph

 

25sec

R 9km 1300kph

7 11.5km 1700kph

ER 17km 2100kph

 

with that in mind i'd say the effective ranges at medium altitude are

 

R-27R 6-8km

AIM-7 10-12km

R-27ER 17-19km

Edited March 19, 2017 by Frostie

[*Rage*]

Is that straight line or maneuvering?

[apocom]

Speed+Drag is the important metric which leads to range.

 

Range on its own in atmosphere is not a very good metric to judge missile lethality.

 

[You can have a very low drag missile which is slow and has wings and has hundreds of miles of range and you can have a very fast missile that has huge drag which goes 20nm crazy fast and then basically falls out of the sky].

 

Yes that's true, but in the acceleration/drag department the M7 is way better. The M7 reaches it's top speed faster and keeps speed longer. There is a brief moment at 2NM where the R27R is faster, but it also takes longer to reach 2NM.

 

The M7 reaches a certain range faster and has overall 25% more lethal range. I asssume the glider in your example is not lethal at hundreds of miles, so I don't know what your example should tell me.

[BSS_Sniper]

Is the server down? I haven't seen it in a while this morning

[karambiatos]

 

 

10. Eastern block generally has more and better air defenses in terms of SAM systems. Nope, both sides have to have the same.

 

 

 

 

 

Actually you are wrong, blue gets better SAMs, if not to say much better

Avengers which have more and better missiles than any other IR missile SAM on red, and chaparrals which have a really big range.

 

 

Red doesn't get any tunguskas, because blue couldn't stop complaining about how they can actually shoot things down.

Edited March 19, 2017 by karambiatos

[D4n]

Drag is a key factor.

 

Attacking an aircraft that is moving 30 degrees off the nose.

 

Launch parameters

6000m (20,000 ft)

Mach 0.9

 

R-27R hits at 30km max

max speed 3180kph

time to max speed 7sec

duration at max 1sec

time to hit target 43sec

 

AIM-7M hits at 41km (22nm) max

max speed 2600kph

time to max speed 5sec

duration at max 11sec

time to hit target 1min

 

R-27ER hits at 44km max

max speed 4080kph

time to max speed 11sec

duration at max speed 1sec

time to hit target 52sec

 

What? Why would ER take 9 sec longer than R to hit?

[Fedduk]

What? Why would ER take 9 sec longer than R to hit?

 

I dont quite follow, but probably it is for a target on the max range for each given missile.

[xcom]

Server is back up

[Cisco]

Also, F-15 radar is much better in terms of locking up targets close. I cant count the times a m2000 has popped up on my radar screen 10 seconds after clearing a mountain, and the time it takes me to even notice him being there i have 1 530 and a magic on my ass.

[Cisco]

What about giving the R-77 to the Mig's? Its not as long range as the ER and you can only carry like 4 of them.

[Tricky11]

Thumbs up for that... But are you actually promoting nescafe? If yes, I hope it's unlegal here and just for general intel the owner of that company would take drinking water away from people. And this is coming from a huge coffie fan. And no é bs please...

 

No not promoting Nescafe. It has been my game name for the past 15 years and im not about to change it. I started the name Nescafe as i am a bit Touring car Racing fan and they used to sponsor a team. And whats with the name jejsus? I hope you are not promoting anything religious? :doh:

[*Rage*]

No not promoting Nescafe. It has been my game name for the past 15 years and im not about to change it. I started the name Nescafe as i am a bit Touring car Racing fan and they used to sponsor a team. And whats with the name jejsus? I hope you are not promoting anything religious? :doh:

 

Lol. +rep if I weren't mobile browsing.

[Sweep]

Lol. +rep if I weren't mobile browsing.

 

Tossed some rep his way for ya.