Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 9

[Tj1376]

That's 100% airquake mentality.

 

"Let me get right back to shooting missiles when I get killed because it's boring to have penalties when losing."

 

6-8 minutes an opponent that you shot down has to wait to refuel is another 6-8 minutes your ground attackers and people actually playing the objectives have to get their job done. 6-8 minutes is not a long time in the time frames that Blue Flag has for its various windows to get things done.

 

See the below that I already posted....

 

I think we've proven time and time again that this doesnt work. This is what the LIVES system is for.

 

You limit airquake by forcing people to value their in game LIFE, not waste their real world life. The existing lives system does this quite well. After three airquakes you can no longer quake.

 

I've recommended numerous improvements to help enforce this strategy; none of which include wasting your real life... I'd like to see how you would recommend to improve it.

 

TJ

[Tj1376]

It does something. Among others it does reduce fighter spam, so airbases can actually be captured. That was pretty frustrating in the first few BlueFlag rounds, because every of the defending FC3 jockeys that got shot down was airborne again a minute later.

 

The new fuel system addresses this-

 

Destroy the fuel bunkers and this is no longer an issue (or let the airquakers quake and run their base out of fuel.)

 

TJ

[AbortedMan]

See the below that I already posted....

 

Lives system does not punish or reward someone for that instance of a death/kill. If you provide CAP for ground attack you shouldn't have to deal with the same person over and over in the same reasonable time frame of that sortie or window of defense for your ground attackers.

 

After three airquakes you can no longer quake

 

Why should anyone be airquaking on Blue Flag in the first place?

 

Why are you complaining about it anyway? You barely ever fly fighters, TJ.

Edited June 27, 2017 by AbortedMan

[M0ltar]

Lives system does not punish or reward someone for that instance of a death/kill. If you provide CAP for ground attack you shouldn't have to deal with the same person over and over in the same reasonable time frame of that sortie or window of defense for your ground attackers.

 

 

 

Why should anyone be airquaking on Blue Flag in the first place?

 

Why are you complaining about it anyway? You barely ever fly fighters, TJ.

For all those asking for Blue Flag to be close to real life all of these fighters would be fully fueled on the ramp being this close to the front of the war. The fighter would land from a sortie and then be turned around to be ready for the next even if it just sat there waiting.

 

I'm with the others to that things should be fully fueled. However, and this is a big however, the problem with having things fully fueled is that this is not real life. The planes are not just sitting on the ramp unmanned and available to be targeted. Meaning strikers can't target unmanned fighters on the ramp to prevent takeoffs. The runway can be targeted, but it only affects non FC3 aircraft.

 

Tough nut to crack.

Edited June 27, 2017 by M0ltar

[AbortedMan]

For all those asking for Blue Flag to be close to real life all of these fighters would be fully fueled on the ramp being this close to the front of the war. The fighter would land from a sortie and then be turned around to be ready for the next even if it just sat there waiting.

 

I'm with the others to that things should be fully fueled. However, and this is a big however, the problem with having things fully fueled is that this is not real life. The planes are not just sitting on the ramp unmanned and available to be targeted. Meaning strikers can't target unmanned fighters on the ramp to prevent takeoffs. The runway can be targeted, but it only affects non FC3 aircraft.

 

Tough nut to crack.

 

Has nothing to do with being close to real life. Refueling when respawning is a gameplay mechanic that gives CAP a purpose...eliminate the air threat for your assets playing the objectives. This can't be done effectively if it takes only 3-4 minutes to see the same fighter attacking your allies again.

 

Nobody should have to kill the same player 7 times to call the skies clear for your helicopters or ground attack to move up.

[Jugdriver]

If you provide CAP for ground attack you shouldn't have to deal with the same person over and over in the same reasonable time frame of that sortie or window of defense for your ground attackers.

+1

 

I think we've proven time and time again that this doesnt work. This is what the LIVES system is for.

You haven’t proven anything this is just your opinion, nothing more.

 

Fueling Fighters is a specific design feature that the BF admins put in to keep defenders (and attackers) from Spamming fighters. It is part of the overall concept of cooperation and coordination, which if one side does not have they will not be able to keep shoving fighters into the battle as fast as they can arm them.

 

JD

 

AKA_MattE

[Frostie]

I agree with the reasons on both sides of the refueling coin but picture this, the attackers perform a succesful CAP at a captured airbase, say Red capture Gudauta for example, that CAP then has to land and refuel at Sochi/Guduata while Blue fighters can get immediately airbourne again at Sukhumi and again and again, basically the constant stream that zero fuelling gives while Red fighters, even though initially in this case winning the air battle, are now being overwhelmed by numbers they have already beaten because their turn around is considerably slower.

 

As for the gear exploit, though I don't advocate it, doing so does not give any particular advantage over other airframes as the Flanker seems to take the longest to fuel up. This is no more of a terrible exploit than switching from a chopper mid-flight to a fighter or striker because CAP or CAS is needed asap. I'm sure there are plenty of more exploits that don't warrant anyones attention because they are too trivial and just anal, because this one is visually unsightly it gets more attention and hype. Game changer it ain't, reason to have a moan and pretend it's a game changer - seems so.

[AbortedMan]

I agree with the reasons on both sides of the refueling coin but picture this, the attackers perform a succesful CAP at a captured airbase, say Red capture Gudauta for example, that CAP then has to land and refuel at Sochi/Guduata while Blue fighters can get immediately airbourne again at Sukhumi and again and again, basically the constant stream that zero fuelling gives while Red fighters, even though initially in this case winning the air battle, are now being overwhelmed by numbers they have already beaten because their turn around is considerably slower.

 

As for the gear exploit, though I don't advocate it, doing so does not give any particular advantage over other airframes as the Flanker seems to take the longest to fuel up. This is no more of a terrible exploit than switching from a chopper mid-flight to a fighter or striker because CAP or CAS is needed asap. I'm sure there are plenty of more exploits that don't warrant anyones attention because they are too trivial and just anal, because this one is visually unsightly it gets more attention and hype. Game changer it ain't, reason to have a moan and pretend it's a game changer - seems so.

 

Just FYI...The scenario you describe in the first part of your post would be drastically changed by the usage of the exploit that you deem "does not give any particular advantage" in the second part of your post.

[M0ltar]

Just FYI...The scenario you describe in the first part of your post would be drastically changed by the usage of the exploit that you deem "does not give any particular advantage" in the second part of your post.

Question before I post what I'm thinking about.

 

Does the F15 start with 0 fuel or does it now have 20% like the Flanker?

[Alpenwolf]

Just came out of a fight to write down some frustration. Maybe it helps to cool me down, I don't know...

 

It's the lag issue... It never happens to me so I'm starting to wonder if some players do it on purpose. Fired 8 missiles at a guy and you could see him climbing up and the down the mountains and glitching all over the Caucasus region. And then of course another one came into the fight, fired a missile, I started defending like crazy and surely I got hit. Then you type it down and kids start telling you to learn how to fly or how much better they are.

I should stop writing now! It's boiling me up again :joystick:

 

Anyways... World peace everyone... I mean love... or some shit...

 

Dafuq did I just drink! :huh:

 

S!

[M0ltar]

Just came out of a fight to write down some frustration. Maybe it helps to cool me down, I don't know...

 

It's the lag issue... It never happens to me so I'm starting to wonder if some players do it on purpose. Fired 8 missiles at a guy and you could see him climbing up and the down the mountains and glitching all over the Caucasus region. And then of course another one came into the fight, fired a missile, I started defending like crazy and surely I got hit. Then you type it down and kids start telling you to learn how to fly or how much better they are.

I should stop writing now! It's boiling me up again :joystick:

 

Anyways... World peace everyone... I mean love... or some shit...

 

Dafuq did I just drink! :huh:

 

S!

The lag has come back. Not sure what is causing it. It was happening to me yesterday. I don't know if it's server wide or only occurrs to the ones that are not causing it if it is peer based.

[Tj1376]

Lives system does not punish or reward someone for that instance of a death/kill. If you provide CAP for ground attack you shouldn't have to deal with the same person over and over in the same reasonable time frame of that sortie or window of defense for your ground attackers.

 

You dont- You deal with them two other times max (you already shot them down once.)

 

Wipe out the fuel bunkers and you dont deal with them (or their friends) again.

 

It does something. Among others it does reduce fighter spam, so airbases can actually be captured. That was pretty frustrating in the first few BlueFlag rounds, because every of the defending FC3 jockeys that got shot down was airborne again a minute later.

 

Refueling when respawning is a gameplay mechanic that gives CAP a purpose... This can't be done effectively if it takes only 3-4 minutes to see the same fighter attacking your allies again.

 

Nobody should have to kill the same player 7 times to call the skies clear for your helicopters or ground attack to move up.

 

This was prior to the fuel bunkers and fuel system in place today. Take out the bunker and you eliminate this frustration. Also, nobody can kill the same air to air threat seven times.. Only three times. Maybe more if they also have an F5/m21 airframes left.

 

No sir I think this entire forum has missed the point that the reason behind the 0 fuel start is basically a respawn timer, you're supposed to value your life and be punished when you don't..

 

The fundamental problem I have with this logic is that it punishes ALL air to air fighters for the misbehaving of a few. Let the LIVES system take care of this misbehavior. Maybe three lives every six hours isnt the right answer. Maybe its two lives every 1.5 hours? Im not sure- but waiting seven mins to refuel for all players is agonizing to those that play regularly.

 

I'm with the others to that things should be fully fueled. However, and this is a big however, the problem with having things fully fueled is that this is not real life. The planes are not just sitting on the ramp unmanned and available to be targeted. Meaning strikers can't target unmanned fighters on the ramp to prevent takeoffs. The runway can be targeted, but it only affects non FC3 aircraft.

 

Tough nut to crack.

 

The fuel system (which prevents spawning when you takeout the bunkers) should alleviate this issue. I think what has really happened is that people havent learned how to take advantage of this new combat tactic.

 

I agree that it is tough to crack... which is why we are having this great discussion.

 

Fueling Fighters is a specific design feature that the BF admins put in to keep defenders (and attackers) from Spamming fighters. It is part of the overall concept of cooperation and coordination, which if one side does not have they will not be able to keep shoving fighters into the battle as fast as they can arm them.

 

JD

 

AKA_MattE

 

Again- see how the new gameplay works out with the fuel system and bunkers. This requires coordination between CAP, CAS and SEAD now. In previous missions it was, secure CAP, send in SEAD, send in CAS, send in helo.

 

Now the game is DIFFERENT, and Im proposing we make it more like real life where the Alert Three and Four aircraft are hot started on the deck in the catapult waiting to launch. (Thats a Top Gun reference if you missed it.)

 

If you want to keep the fighters from coming, there are three things you can do: a) fight them until they run out of lives. b) run them out of fuel (red has done this several times to blue.) c) take out the fuel bunkers to prevent them from respawning at that base.

 

This new tactic would require CAP and a really thoughtful / suicidal CAS mission to target the bunkers (maybe a job for a M2K with laser guided bombs?) Then probably SEAD and then back to CAS.

 

Why should anyone be airquaking on Blue Flag in the first place?

 

Why are you complaining about it anyway? You barely ever fly fighters, TJ.

 

I love fighters... I play them pretty much exclusively on 104, Open Conflict, etc. I do not play fighters on Blue Flag because the sorties are already very long and adding seven mins to that is agonizing. Im also not very good, and the only way to get better is to practice.. Practicing on this server takes ages.

 

So back to answer your question: Why do I care?

 

I want more people to play on Blue Flag.

 

There is obviously a balance, but if you see how busy the 104th is, you see that some people do enjoy an air to air engagement that doesnt take 30 mins to unfold. Blue Flag is running those players off in droves. This is proven by the 100 or more players Blue has against Red. Why dont these people play more frequently? I think the answer lies in they dont find the server intuitive and its easier elsewhere.

 

The mission is solid (for the most part.) The idea is EPIC. What this server needs is something that caters more to the new player and a gameplay system that walks people through how the mission works/unfolds. This is what BlueFlag is lacking. The learning curve to a new player to this server is pretty overwhelming.

 

TJ

[iLOVEwindmills]

It does something. Among others it does reduce fighter spam, so airbases can actually be captured. That was pretty frustrating in the first few BlueFlag rounds, because every of the defending FC3 jockeys that got shot down was airborne again a minute later.

 

I don't disagree, there should be a delay, I'm not arguing for hot starts and I think the mirage start up is in a pretty decent place.

 

What I disagree with is that FC3 is so unbelievably gimped that requiring them to start at 0% fuel is just adding insult to injury. In addition to the fact that there is literally nothing you can do while fuelling them, and the insane time you need for spooldown/refuel 2 to 3x m2k fuel quantity/spool up time for when you run out.

 

And I don't see how the fighter spam is in any way countered by this, as I have a distinct picture in my mind of Su27s taking off with 20% fuel vertically and slinging 73s at anything attacking their base. Or 15 with tanks.

 

Fueling Fighters is a specific design feature that the BF admins put in to keep defenders (and attackers) from Spamming fighters. It is part of the overall concept of cooperation and coordination, which if one side does not have they will not be able to keep shoving fighters into the battle as fast as they can arm them.

You realize you now have 3 lives to last you 6 hours? Can you elaborate on how anyone can 'spam' fighters within these limitations? Beyond the fact that fighters are the only thing you can use to kill enemy planes which hardly seems like 'spam'. Killing enemy planes is a pretty important part of the game, it's not really that strange to me that people primarily fly fighters. I don't see how this is really even an issue. Edited June 27, 2017 by iLOVEwindmills

[Frostie]

Just FYI...The scenario you describe in the first part of your post would be drastically changed by the usage of the exploit that you deem "does not give any particular advantage" in the second part of your post.

 

Drastically changed? No it would still be the same situation because 4+ mins is still drastically slower than 1 min.

Plus who max fills up at such prominent situations.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Frostie

[BodyOrgan]

Tj already summed everything up pretty well, but I'll put my thoughts out there anyway.

 

No sir I think this entire forum has missed the point that the reason behind the 0 fuel start is basically a respawn timer, you're supposed to value your life and be punished when you don't..

This is your opinion of the refuel times. It is not shared by all.

 

It does something. Among others it does reduce fighter spam, so airbases can actually be captured. That was pretty frustrating in the first few BlueFlag rounds, because every of the defending FC3 jockeys that got shot down was airborne again a minute later.

Yes, one of the reasons for defuel was the intent to reduce air quake, but the fueling system along with fuel depots at the airfields will remedy this. Don't you remember round 5? There is little reason to continue to force players to do nothing.

 

That's 100% airquake mentality.

 

"Let me get right back to shooting missiles when I get killed because it's boring to have penalties when losing."

 

6-8 minutes an opponent that you shot down has to wait to refuel is another 6-8 minutes your ground attackers and people actually playing the objectives have to get their job done. 6-8 minutes is not a long time in the time frames that Blue Flag has for its various windows to get things done.

No it isn't. I simply want to do something other than waste my life staring at a screen. Who says I'm quaking? I might be enjoying my flight from one airfield to the next, rather than trying to enjoy my time watching the grass grow (which it doesn't).

[mia389]

The lag has come back. Not sure what is causing it. It was happening to me yesterday. I don't know if it's server wide or only occurrs to the ones that are not causing it if it is peer based.

 

Some things to think about that were added,

 

Su33s

Mistrals.

Maykop slots.

 

Maybe we need to take out units from the mission. Maybe only one type of Gazelle, ditch 29s,33s. Maybe even get rid of some airfields.

 

Could also try to limit the amount of IR sams are kept from previous mission.

[mia389]

You realize you now have 3 lives to last you 6 hours? Can you elaborate on how anyone can 'spam' fighters within these limitations?

 

Ask blue! When someone uses all them lives another one will join. Rinse and repeat. Finally fuel will catch up to reduce the spam. Have you played BF lately?

[M0ltar]

Some things to think about that were added,

 

Su33s

Mistrals.

Maykop slots.

 

Maybe we need to take out units from the mission. Maybe only one type of Gazelle, ditch 29s,33s. Maybe even get rid of some airfields.

 

Could also try to limit the amount of IR sams are kept from previous mission.

Player placed units didn't even cross my mind. How long do they stay? Is there a limit to the number of manpads that can be placed? What about EWRs for red?

[BodyOrgan]

Some things to think about that were added,

 

Su33s

Mistrals.

Maykop slots.

 

Maybe we need to take out units from the mission. Maybe only one type of Gazelle, ditch 29s,33s. Maybe even get rid of some airfields.

 

Could also try to limit the amount of IR sams are kept from previous mission.

Probably just need to control how many assets we can deploy. I would say the 100's of units being placed kept through restart is probably taking its toll.

 

Player placed units didn't even cross my mind. How long do they stay? Is there a limit to the number of manpads that can be placed? What about EWRs for red?

Count Blue in fun there too. When we captured Sukumi yesterday we had discovered Blue littered the entire area from there to Senaki with EWR stations.

[M0ltar]

Probably just need to control how many assets we can deploy. I would say the 100's of units being placed kept through restart is probably taking its toll.

 

 

Count Blue in fun there too. When we captured Sukumi yesterday we had discovered Blue littered the entire area from there to Senaki with EWR stations.

Can we have the admins reset the mission and see if the lag disappears? Is it still on going? I just know it was an issue yesterday with warping.

[microvax]

TBH the most prominent change I can remember is that we actually got a script which limits the time units stay up.

 

We had non disappearing units first that didnt seem to cause issues. Now that we have them time limited lag is back ?

 

Or its the player slot count, I doubt its the few additional AI units.

[iLOVEwindmills]

Ask blue! When someone uses all them lives another one will join. Rinse and repeat. Finally fuel will catch up to reduce the spam. Have you played BF lately?

 

Like Body already said the fuel depots are a much more elegant solution to this.

 

I do have to say the notion that we are implementing these measures mainly to punish the people who don't care about flying or staying alive in the first place is absurd to me. Can we care about making the thing as good as possible for the players who want to play it properly?

 

You're essentially saying that the lives system does not matter because other people can rejoin when you eliminate someone.

[Tj1376]

Rubber Banding lag is bad again today- its the entire server. Many folks on SRS complaining about it.

 

TJ

[AbortedMan]

Question before I post what I'm thinking about.

 

Does the F15 start with 0 fuel or does it now have 20% like the Flanker?

 

I don't know, I'm playing red.

 

You dont- You deal with them two other times max (you already shot them down once.)

 

Wipe out the fuel bunkers and you dont deal with them (or their friends) again.

 

This was prior to the fuel bunkers and fuel system in place today. Take out the bunker and you eliminate this frustration.

 

So you're saying in order to provide CAP one should not get in a fighter in the first place, but instead get into an airframe that can destroy fuel bunkers...like a ground attacker. I agree with this sentiment, but unfortunately that is not how people are choosing to solve the problem. Each team cannot automatically suppress enemy fighters at the onset of joining or when moving the fight to a new sector. There will be fight vs fighter encounters. There should be punishments for losing these encounters, and advantages for winning these encounters.

 

Also, nobody can kill the same air to air threat seven times.. Only three times. Maybe more if they also have an F5/m21 airframes left.

Why should someone have to best another player 3 times to get even a 5 minute window for attackers to move in? It should be 1 time multiplied by however many players are attacking (and then perhaps divided by other allied CAP).

 

 

This new tactic would require CAP and a really thoughtful / suicidal CAS mission to target the bunkers (maybe a job for a M2K with laser guided bombs?) Then probably SEAD and then back to CAS.

Not every fight is over or about an airfield. What about the dozens of other objectives that your helicopters are being picked off by enemy fighters en route to?

 

Drastically changed? No it would still be the same situation because 4+ mins is still drastically slower than 1 min.

Plus who max fills up at such prominent situations.

It takes 120 seconds to repair and the repair exploit gives full fuel (I think?). I'm just saying you stated that refueling times matter a lot, but then you implied refueling times don't matter in the next paragraph. In any case, an exploit is an exploit. I'm willing to bet anyone using one exploit will be using another exploit. Why tolerate any cheating in the first place?

[CrashO]

Rubber Banding lag is bad again today-

TJ

 

In glorious slomo: Reaper 12 and 21 "taxi'ing"

Edited June 27, 2017 by CrashO