Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 9

[Frostie]

Yes I can wait until I can sneak in to attack, but what happens when GCI sees me and Im in the RTR? Im dead...

 

Not only that but you can't rely on sneaking around in BF, this isn't a rack up the kills and ignore the mission server. Performing CAP and controlling airspace is paramount to the push, to do that you need the best BVR platform or one that has equal footing otherwise you have to rely on outnumbering.

 

The Flanker just isn't competitive enough for most, this is why they choose Mirage amongst other reasons such as full fidelity. It doesn't deserve to be in such a position. You can't put ERs on because it will dominate the boot will be totally on the other foot and they'd have to put Flankers on blue:D

Edited June 12, 2017 by Frostie

[AbortedMan]

Weren't some of you arguing that the FC3 aircraft should be removed altogether because they're "EZ mode" like...a month ago?

[M0ltar]

Weren't some of you arguing that the FC3 aircraft should be removed altogether because they're "EZ mode" like...a month ago?

 

That was an argument that was trying to be used against the people saying the F15 and SU27 needed the fuel changed.

 

Really not even sure how that comment adds anything relevant to what we're talking about.

[Frostie]

Probably one of the best players on Blue Flag 'Varayag' a staunch Russian traded in his Flanker for the Mirage well over a year ago, that speaks volumes for me.

[mia389]

Notice the Mirage guys on Blue want no change. Wonder why... Keep feeding me su27s! No one is complaining about the aim7 :-)

[Thrud]

Bombers have also had their loadout reduced to reduce the damage they do from 10 bombs to 3

 

What's the point of the bombers anymore then? Are they 3 huge F'n bombs?

[M0ltar]

What's the point of the bombers anymore then? Are they 3 huge F'n bombs?

 

It gives recon and helis something offensive to do. You have to admit 10 bombs per bomber was a bit over the top. On top of that the helicopter can continually call them in and if the other team can't find the chopper... You get the point.

 

3 per to me seems like a good starting point for testing. If it turns out to be too few raise it to 5.

[Pheonix0869]

The Flanker, MiG29 and F-15 gimbal limits in DCS are +/-60 degrees.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=152863

 

This is the forum post I was referring to... as well as this hoggit page:

 

 

Listen I'm all for the Su-27 getting datalink... it is a unique advantage of the platform and should be utilized (its more interesting if each aircraft has unique strengths and weaknesses). If you guys want to get the ER, I would expect a concession to the AIM-120 being introduced. However, I would not predict that would reduce the number of non-FC3 fliers online.

 

I literally ran three 3 sorties with a mirage AI (excellent) and a Su-27 (I literally had to map the keys before the first sortie), same alt, same speed and the guy could never touch me. I don't think online players have different 530's but... maybe? Either way, I like a challenge, i wouldn't mind the ER and 120 being introduced, but I cannot speak for everyone. I think that situation may also betray the design intent of BF in general.

[AbortedMan]

Really not even sure how that comment adds anything relevant to what we're talking about.

 

Right, I didn't think you would be sure since it doesn't support your side of the argument.

[M0ltar]

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=152863

 

This is the forum post I was referring to... as well as this hoggit page:

 

 

Listen I'm all for the Su-27 getting datalink... it is a unique advantage of the platform and should be utilized (its more interesting if each aircraft has unique strengths and weaknesses). If you guys want to get the ER, I would expect a concession to the AIM-120 being introduced. However, I would not predict that would reduce the number of non-FC3 fliers online.

 

I literally ran three 3 sorties with a mirage AI (excellent) and a Su-27 (I literally had to map the keys before the first sortie), same alt, same speed and the guy could never touch me. I don't think online players have different 530's but... maybe? Either way, I like a challenge, i wouldn't mind the ER and 120 being introduced, but I cannot speak for everyone. I think that situation may also betray the design intent of BF in general.

 

I'd be all for a full engagement with all weapons and gizmos!

 

We can talk about being untouchable all day, however we need to know what you did to go defensive? Did you turn cold? Just want to know what you did.

 

Also, I really don't think AI is a substitute for real players. They do some strange things with radars, turning cold, notching, really anything.

 

Not saying you're wrong, just want some more info. Also a better test may be to have a player fire at you in a closed test and see what happens. I don't trust DCS AI.

[Pheonix0869]

I'd be all for a full engagement with all weapons and gizmos!

 

We can talk about being untouchable all day, however we need to know what you did to go defensive? Did you turn cold? Just want to know what you did.

 

Also, I really don't think AI is a substitute for real players. They do some strange things with radars, turning cold, notching, really anything.

 

Not saying you're wrong, just want some more info. Also a better test may be to have a player fire at you in a closed test and see what happens. I don't trust DCS AI.

You have tacview? I'll post the .acmi

 

EDIT: attached ACMI in a zip folder... the first batch I tested only 27R or 27T. The second batch I used only heaters. There are two failures where I let my airspeed bleed WAY too much (mind you at this point I was well within IR range). Also it was the first time i saw the SU-27 gun pipper... So when you see that track, don't judge... My goal with the second batch was to allow the M2K to launch both 530 and defeat them before engaging myself. Sometimes this happened sometimes not, but i hate censorship, so you get everything i did. There are two tracks missing, but it was because I forgot to arm the mirage.

Su-27 Tacview.zip

Edited June 13, 2017 by Pheonix0869

[M0ltar]

You have tacview? I'll post the .acmi

 

EDIT: attached ACMI in a zip folder... the first batch I tested only 27R or 27T. The second batch I used only heaters. There are two failures where I let my airspeed bleed WAY too much (mind you at this point I was well within IR range). Also it was the first time i saw the SU-27 gun pipper... So when you see that track, don't judge... My goal with the second batch was to allow the M2K to launch both 530 and defeat them before engaging myself. Sometimes this happened sometimes not, but i hate censorship, so you get everything i did. There are two tracks missing, but it was because I forgot to arm the mirage.

 

Thanks for posting. Excited to watch! Will ha e to be tomorrow though as it's bed time for me.

 

Again, thanks for sharing!

[Tj1376]

 

Listen I'm all for the Su-27 getting datalink... it is a unique advantage of the platform and should be utilized (its more interesting if each aircraft has unique strengths and weaknesses).

 

 

I think this is the best argument for enabling the data link. It does add something unique to the su27 platform which would draw players to it and away from the mirage.

 

The f15 has drop tanks and an excellent radar.

 

The mirage has full fuel, high fidelity and awesome modeling of the 530 that avoids the ED crap we currently have.

 

Let's try datalink in the su27!

 

TJ

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Frostie]

 

Listen I'm all for the Su-27 getting datalink... it is a unique advantage of the platform and should be utilized (its more interesting if each aircraft has unique strengths and weaknesses). If you guys want to get the ER, I would expect a concession to the AIM-120 being introduced. However, I would not predict that would reduce the number of non-FC3 fliers online.

By now agreeing with what most have been saying for the last few pages a way of saying that you're orignal thoughts on the Flanker being superior were wrong.

I literally ran three 3 sorties with a mirage AI (excellent) and a Su-27 (I literally had to map the keys before the first sortie), same alt, same speed and the guy could never touch me. I don't think online players have different 530's but... maybe? Either way, I like a challenge, i wouldn't mind the ER and 120 being introduced, but I cannot speak for everyone. I think that situation may also betray the design intent of BF in general.

 

Keep practicing, you should be able to kill the AI using only guns.

[Pheonix0869]

...As for data-link, (and as a blue player) I say enable it, who cares. The A-10 has a similar function and we don't debate that. Besides if you need those bells and whistles to be effective, don't expect to win too many sorties. However, I would imagine such a change would encourage less comms traffic, which seems to be an issue already considering the recent influx of new comers and more clique-like behavior from squadrons (not all squadrons, but come game time, I would hope everyone is at least monitoring the general channel...) And that brings us full circle. Any change that would result is less communication and less teamwork (required) is likely not a great design choice. Cheers!

 

...I'm just consistent... No need to be rude.

[*Rage*]

Its a waste to use missiles on AI. Even in BF....

[Tyrant07]

Senaki might be bugged. We took out all base defenses and bunkers and it still showed 100%. Even called a bomber and still nada.

[AbortedMan]

Destroyed Senaki AF tonight. Was not showing any damage on website, but was showing under attack. Multiple AI bombers called in, Viggen runs, fully loaded A10 with 11 kills and still 100% on website and CTLD menu. Also it was not showing in the correct PAK in the CTLD menu...shows in PAK3 when it should be PAK5.

 

EDIT: 3rd bomber was called in and notification stated it found no targets so it was going to carpet bomb. Still showed 100% repaired.

Edited June 13, 2017 by AbortedMan

[Cisco]

DL on the flanker does not work in MP. The DL for flanker is fighter -> AI AWACS, not fighter -> fighter.

 

Add 27ER, F-15 can manage.

[Ciribob]

Thanks that's great info.

 

Each base has a unique ID and that sounds like the unique ID perhaps isn't as unique as it should be due to a naming error

 

Will try to check tonight depending on time and also reset the map as red have nearly got it all.

 

Spectator should have been turned off last night as well - let me know if not :)

 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[Sweep]

Add 27ER, F-15 can manage.

 

F-15C "Cranky McF-PoleFace"

 

:megalol:

[M460]

...

Moving units - Still out on the whole due to lag but we'll see how we go in a later round.

...

 

I have noticed that units deployed at Altitude+Angle (AKA Terrain features) tend to have a spawn issue that makes them jog in circles endlessly(Manpads/ sometimes Kubs). pretty sure this affects performance on the server with many unit running this routine.

 

Allowing GCI to stop this units might reduce server workload... or maybe not..but its worth the try. :thumbup:

[M0ltar]

You have tacview? I'll post the .acmi

 

EDIT: attached ACMI in a zip folder... the first batch I tested only 27R or 27T. The second batch I used only heaters. There are two failures where I let my airspeed bleed WAY too much (mind you at this point I was well within IR range). Also it was the first time i saw the SU-27 gun pipper... So when you see that track, don't judge... My goal with the second batch was to allow the M2K to launch both 530 and defeat them before engaging myself. Sometimes this happened sometimes not, but i hate censorship, so you get everything i did. There are two tracks missing, but it was because I forgot to arm the mirage.

 

Good fights with that Mirage. Only saw you get smoked once.

 

A couple things though, and Frostie has said 1 of them. You should be able to kill the AI each and every time even with guns.

 

Most of the time the 530 loses you completely and is nowhere near you when you maneuver. At least a couple of times this is due to the Mirage turning away and losing lock.

 

Compare the 530 and the 27R. Look how much more energy the 530 has than the 27R. The 530 is reaching its target, even though it was fired first and from well away, well before the 27R. Hell some of the time the 27R isn't even making it to the target when fired inside 10 NM.

 

Lastly, like I said in a previous message, try this same fight against a human pilot and see what the results are like then. The AI is too inconstant and does some very strange things in the heat of a fight.

[Frostie]

...I'm just consistent... No need to be rude.

Really sorry for my curt response it was late and I was tired.

 

This is also not an acceptable tactic as the missile will loose much energy in the initial course correction. However, launching and then immediately entering into a notch and chopping the throttle is the appropriate response... on your direction change launch another.

You can't maintain a lock and notch this is impossible, perhaps you mean crank (F-pole). Most experienced pilots do this so nothing of note can be improved on.

The mirage need only to be beamed to loose track and to effectively evade one missile. Play defense, drain his two missile and then re-engage. Bait him. If he closes quick enough the Su-27's off bore-sight IR missiles will destroy a mirage in a dogfight.

This is where I think we are talking a different calibre of opponent, a good Mirage pilot will close down to 10km-15km (5-7nm) before firing, this is where the strength of the 530D will devastate any R-27R, if the Flanker fires earlier his missile is easily defeated by a simple crank, snake etc. if you notch this shot in a Flanker you're basically conceding the advantage to him and then relying on your R73 to be spoofed by countermeasures which it will easily, to do this you have to start turning your nose towards him which puts you out of the notch and due the 2nd 530, you may get your 73 off but flares make it the lesser of the two so the best you're hoping is a mutual kill, in a nose to nose situation the best missile choice is always radar guided. Your other option (other than running away where you might as well eject) is just to stay in the notch and defeat his 530s by notch/chaff and magics with flare then try and win the merge but if he has any grain of ability he will have already gunned you before the pass.

 

Listen, I only make these observation because most of what i see is jousting. Two opponents with minimal course deviation firing whenever they can (something I've been guilty of too). I hardly see pole maneuvers, bracketing, disengaging, or anything hinting at a general strategy. Clearly the SU-27 doesn't excel at these situations against the mirage, so maybe its time to adapt a new tactic.

Of course these tactics all work but given equal ability in this scenario the Mirage trumps all. The only tactic viable to deal with this is more numbers using drag and bait.

Just to be clear, I haven't got a problem flying in this scenario but it seems hardly anyone wants to fly the Flanker because of its poor position in this setup, imo it is better to have more variation of aircraft flying around so looking into making this happen is what we need.

 

You have tacview? I'll post the .acmi

 

EDIT: attached ACMI in a zip folder... the first batch I tested only 27R or 27T. The second batch I used only heaters. There are two failures where I let my airspeed bleed WAY too much (mind you at this point I was well within IR range). Also it was the first time i saw the SU-27 gun pipper... So when you see that track, don't judge... My goal with the second batch was to allow the M2K to launch both 530 and defeat them before engaging myself. Sometimes this happened sometimes not, but i hate censorship, so you get everything i did. There are two tracks missing, but it was because I forgot to arm the mirage.

 

This is why you can't rely on AI for anything useful. Haven't flown the MiG15 for over a year but first time no problem against the AI, real players don't fire max range and don't give you a chance to be so casual. I didn't realise that the first encounter was on high so switched him over to excellent.

Mirage vs Mig15.zip.rar

Mirage Exc vs MiG15.zip.rar

Edited June 13, 2017 by Frostie

[Pheonix0869]

God, you guys are very hung up on this gun thing... Here's deal and then I'm done. People are making claims that are unsubstantiated. I've provided citations and experimental evidence to back up my claims. So if anyone feels that kills should be obtained with guns against a fully armed mirage, then drop the argument for a more capable missile... because surely if you should be getting gun kills (as an experienced Su-27 driver), then how come you can't be successful with SARH and IR missiles against a human? I will concede that it seems the 27R and T are easier spoofed by chaff, if you look at the tacview file, you'll see the missile oscillate and divert from the target when he's spamming countermeasures... but also he is spamming his countermeasures. To be fair here, no one has provided evidence to the contrary or any other information (i.e. ED bug report?). Literally, the only counterpoints are empty and negative, and the critiques are borderline personal. There is a saying, "never fire in anger," and I would suggest the same be true posting in an online debate. Now if we want to talk numbers I would be more than willing to setup a server for running very controlled experiments with another person at some point this week. However, I think that's unnecessary as, once again, there has been no evidence presented suggesting the 530 is a magic missile (pun intended) or that the 27 R/T is so under powered that the 17 extra missiles the su-27 carries can't compensate for it. In closing, if anyone would like to post a track or acmi themselves, I'm sure the evidence would be welcome. Guys, if this is how we treat newcomers, we wont have newcomers... provide evidence, make your point, but don't take it or make it personal.