When will JA37 & JA37D release?

[D4n]

I am wondering, when will you developers also add the JA37 and JA 37D to the module, I can't wait to have (fair) dogfights (SkyFlash, AMRAAM) against players in this aircraft! :)

[jmijnen]

They're too new and use classified equipment (as it is in the Gripen) and as such would be implausible for a DCS module, besides, it'd be at least 50% the work of a fully new module due to large differences.

[D4n]

Then I hope Leatherneck will do MiG-31 next! :D (if not too classified)

[Harpoon]

Then I hope Leatherneck will do MiG-31 next! :D (if not too classified)

 

not a reasonable aircraft to hold your breath for. hell, even a MiG-25 would be very difficult itself to produce with accuracy in DCS.

of course, i don't mean to get into a debate with anyone, but a 31 is simply not an option.

[RaXha]

I am wondering, when will you developers also add the JA37 and JA 37D to the module, I can't wait to have (fair) dogfights (SkyFlash, AMRAAM) against players in this aircraft! :)

 

 

 

Not gonna happen, possibly as an AI but not as a flyable dcs level module. It has as stated above classified equipment and is more or less a completely different airframe so it would need just much time to develop as the AJS did 4-5 years. They have mentioned that they might ad the JA as an AI, but they have not begun work on that.

[D4n]

I thought they have exactly same airframe (looks same to me).

[renhanxue]

I thought they have exactly same airframe (looks same to me).

That's only because you haven't been taught to look for the differences :)

 

The JA 37 has an extra compressor stage in the engine to improve performance at high alpha (befitting its role as a fighter), and to fit that the entire fuselage is about a decimeter longer. Then there's extra elevon hydraulic arms on the underside of the wings to improve control authority, some of which have builtin countermeasures dispensers, the tailfin is different to improve yaw stability (has a notch above the rudder), there's a gun installed under the fuselage, there's a bunch of datalink antennas all over the aircraft, etc etc.

 

Mainly though the cockpit is completely different and there are very few systems that are identical between the two so it'd be like starting over on an entirely new aircraft.

[SirBunker]

I thought they have exactly same airframe (looks same to me).

 

Graphics are relatively easy to make compared to coding the aircraft systems/avionics, which to my knowledge are completely different between the AJ and JA 37.

[NeilWillis]

The 3D model is only a small part (though very important of course) of a module, and aerodynamics, engine parameters, cockpit and systems would all need changing - so it'd be a huge task, not far short of starting from scratch. Add to the equasion that the systems in question are all still classified, and you have your answer.

 

Not a chance.

[renhanxue]

I think the classified part is less of a hurdle than it's made out to be - 95% of the flight manual and other documentation would most likely be declassified today if you requested it. Problem is, the declassification process takes forever (like, it can literally take a year, speaking from experience here) and you don't know what might be denied release until afterwards.

 

Again though - it'd be a completely new aircraft, it's so different from the AJS 37 that there's basically nothing you can reuse. Like, a few pretty minor 3D model things and the rocket pods, that's pretty much it. Everything else is different. Different engine, different flight model (control surface authority is vastly different), different weapons, different radar, different HUD... it just goes on and on, it has nothing in common with the AJS 37 at all, really. It only looks confusingly similar from the outside.

[D4n]

That's only because you haven't been taught to look for the differences :)

 

The JA 37 has an extra compressor stage in the engine to improve performance at high alpha (befitting its role as a fighter), and to fit that the entire fuselage is about a decimeter longer. Then there's extra elevon hydraulic arms on the underside of the wings to improve control authority, some of which have builtin countermeasures dispensers, the tailfin is different to improve yaw stability (has a notch above the rudder), there's a gun installed under the fuselage, there's a bunch of datalink antennas all over the aircraft, etc etc.

 

Mainly though the cockpit is completely different and there are very few systems that are identical between the two so it'd be like starting over on an entirely new aircraft.

 

Wow interesting! Thanks! :) I wonder what those "elevon hydraulic arms" on the underside and the tailfin look like!

[Alwandy]

JA 37 isn't classified by the way. Sweden have a rule about classification if it has extended certain years then we can just walk up and ask for its information.

 

#Swedenhasnosecrets

[grunf]

Flyable JA37 will probably not going to happen in foreseeable future, if ever, but I'd very much like to see the AI one. We need some proper escorts. :D

[QuiGon]

Flyable JA37 will probably not going to happen in foreseeable future, if ever, but I'd very much like to see the AI one. We need some proper escorts. :D

 

Yeah, Cobra already said that an AI JA37 is possible.

[D4n]

AI would already be awesome!

[mattebubben]

JA 37 isn't classified by the way. Sweden have a rule about classification if it has extended certain years then we can just walk up and ask for its information.

 

#Swedenhasnosecrets

 

Maby not the aircraft over all but some systems especially for a later

JA variant (C,D/DI) are likely still classified.

 

Since some of the systems in the Updated JA 37s went on to be used in the JAS 39 (Either Directly or later versions of those systems).

 

So there might still be reason for them to be classified.

[Alwandy]

Maby not the aircraft over all but some systems especially for a later

JA variant (C,D/DI) are likely still classified.

 

Since some of the systems in the Updated JA 37s went on to be used in the JAS 39 (Either Directly or later versions of those systems).

 

So there might still be reason for them to be classified.

 

JA 37 are most likely no longer classified. JA 37D is most likely unclassified next year. I am very unsure what specifics are currently classified but the JA 37 uses the old systems. (I am not including C or D..)

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Classification is only part of the equation. The A-10C has portions of it classified, as well. Or rather, it's ECM pods are classified.

 

It comes down to how much the developer has to abstract and assume. That doesn't typically make for a good sim.

 

In the end, the most we're going to get is an FC3 JA-37 and that's a huge maybe. LNS's next project is as clear as a sunny day in May of '86.

[Skjold]

Classification is only part of the equation. The A-10C has portions of it classified, as well. Or rather, it's ECM pods are classified.

 

It comes down to how much the developer has to abstract and assume. That doesn't typically make for a good sim.

 

In the end, the most we're going to get is an FC3 JA-37 and that's a huge maybe. LNS's next project is as clear as a sunny day in May of '86.

 

You forgot that the RWR and IFF systems also are classified on the A-10, possibly the datalink too?

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

You forgot that the RWR and IFF systems also are classified on the A-10, possibly the datalink too?

 

Yeah, that's my point. Systems on the A-10C are classified. It's a matter of how much input the developers have to make on their own.

[renhanxue]

JA 37 are most likely no longer classified. JA 37D is most likely unclassified next year. I am very unsure what specifics are currently classified but the JA 37 uses the old systems. (I am not including C or D..)

Ooookay. No idea what you're basing the claims on but if you know something I don't I'd be very interested in hearing about it.

 

I mean, I agree that the JA 37 flight manual is almost certainly not something the authorities considers sensitive today, but that doesn't mean it's actually declassified, nor that it's accessible. If you want it, all you need to do is send the national military archives (Krigsarkivet) a request to see it - a "begäran att få ta del av allmän handling". They are obligated to handle your request and release if possible, but before you get to see it, they need to review the document and approve it for release, regardless of how old it is. A classified document never gets declassified automatically - it must always be reviewed before it can be released. There are legal limits on how long the authorities can deny release for security reasons, but that doesn't mean it's automatically released once those are passed.

 

I know for a fact that as of right now, part 4 of the JA 37 flight manual (which contains performance charts) is the only declassified part - it's listed in the national archives' open library catalog. One of these days I'll PDF-ify it.

 

When I got the AJS 37 flight manual declassified they denied release for the chapter on ECM and RWR, by the way. It's probably not sensitive but they were uncertain and it was apparently a lot of work to get it approved for release so they just gave me the rest and told me to send a new request if I was interested in that chapter, and they'd look into it.

[Alwandy]

Ooookay. No idea what you're basing the claims on but if you know something I don't I'd be very interested in hearing about it.

 

I mean, I agree that the JA 37 flight manual is almost certainly not something the authorities considers sensitive today, but that doesn't mean it's actually declassified, nor that it's accessible. If you want it, all you need to do is send the national military archives (Krigsarkivet) a request to see it - a "begäran att få ta del av allmän handling". They are obligated to handle your request and release if possible, but before you get to see it, they need to review the document and approve it for release, regardless of how old it is. A classified document never gets declassified automatically - it must always be reviewed before it can be released. There are legal limits on how long the authorities can deny release for security reasons, but that doesn't mean it's automatically released once those are passed.

 

I know for a fact that as of right now, part 4 of the JA 37 flight manual (which contains performance charts) is the only declassified part - it's listed in the national archives' open library catalog. One of these days I'll PDF-ify it.

 

When I got the AJS 37 flight manual declassified they denied release for the chapter on ECM and RWR, by the way. It's probably not sensitive but they were uncertain and it was apparently a lot of work to get it approved for release so they just gave me the rest and told me to send a new request if I was interested in that chapter, and they'd look into it.

 

I understand this as I am a swede myself, but as our laws say we have the right to know after certain years and as far as I know its 20 years(?) unless some parts are still USED. I'm sure the JA37 systems (Again not C or D) have been declassified for this reason.

[renhanxue]

I understand this as I am a swede myself, but as our laws say we have the right to know after certain years and as far as I know its 20 years(?) unless some parts are still USED. I'm sure the JA37 systems (Again not C or D) have been declassified for this reason.

40 years, not 20, and that's actually the lowest possible time limit - it gets worse with certain types of information (military intelligence is up to 90 years now after the law changed... last year, I think? used to be 70 years). 15 kap 2 § Offentlighets- och sekretesslagen (2009:400):

Sekretess gäller för uppgift som rör verksamhet för att försvara landet eller planläggning eller annan förberedelse av sådan verksamhet eller som i övrigt rör totalförsvaret, om det kan antas att det skadar landets försvar eller på annat sätt vållar fara för rikets säkerhet om uppgiften röjs. I mål eller ärende enligt särskild lag om försvarsuppfinningar gäller dock sekretess för uppgift om sådana uppfinningar enligt föreskrifter i den lagen.

För uppgift i en allmän handling gäller sekretessen i högst fyrtio år. Om det finns särskilda skäl, får dock regeringen meddela föreskrifter om att sekretessen ska gälla under längre tid.

Emphasis mine.

 

I would suggest you read Krigsarkivet's memo Att forska i hemliga arkiv for a quick primer on how this actually works.

 

I reiterate that as far as I know, no part of the JA 37 flight manual other than part 4 has been declassified. It almost certainly could be declassified if you requested it, but until it is reviewed and approved for release it doesn't matter if the time limit has expired or not (it hasn't, though) - it's still classified. If the time limit has expired they must declassify it when you ask for it (barring cabinet-level intervention), but they still have to review it, and the status does not change until you actually request it. It doesn't get declassified automatically. If the time limit hasn't expired they can declassify but the review process takes a lot longer and it's generally a pain.

 

If you know something I don't, though, I would be very interested in hearing it, but as far as the usual way of getting access to these things goes (that is, going via the national archives), there's nothing to see, and I should know.

Edited January 30, 2017 by renhanxue

[Alwandy]

40 years, not 20, and that's actually the lowest possible time limit - it gets worse with certain types of information (military intelligence is up to 90 years now after the law changed... last year, I think? used to be 70 years). 15 kap 2 § Offentlighets- och sekretesslagen (2009:400):

Emphasis mine.

 

I would suggest you read Krigsarkivet's memo Att forska i hemliga arkiv for a quick primer on how this actually works.

 

I reiterate that as far as I know, no part of the JA 37 flight manual other than part 4 has been declassified. It almost certainly could be declassified if you requested it, but until it is reviewed and approved for release it doesn't matter if the time limit has expired or not (it hasn't, though) - it's still classified. If the time limit has expired they must declassify it when you ask for it (barring cabinet-level intervention), but they still have to review it, and the status does not change until you actually request it. It doesn't get declassified automatically. If the time limit hasn't expired they can declassify but the review process takes a lot longer and it's generally a pain.

 

If you know something I don't, though, I would be very interested in hearing it, but as far as the usual way of getting access to these things goes (that is, going via the national archives), there's nothing to see, and I should know.

 

 

Fair enough, I believed it was twenty years but I see what I mixed it up with.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Alwandy