F-15C + AIM120 So Unfair!

[Tropikal]

I ll start off by saying that i am NOT an experienced pilot, i ve only been flying for 2 weeks, and this is the first sim i take in my hands, so if you want you can flame me for what i am about to say, i ll sure say it anyway because for once i feel let down, and second if i feel there is an issue i d like that to be known it s no use to keep it for myself.

 

Since i started playing the game i ve always been drawn to the 27.. i like its style and i like the way it handles. It s a tad complicated to learn but i ll get used to it in the end.

 

I have been playing on public servers on hyperlobby and the thing that gets me the most is that the battles are so unfair..

How is it fair to put up a 27 or a 33 vs an F15 ?? PILOT ASIDE, having a plane that carries autonomous radar missles vs a plane that has to keep a lock to even hope for a hit... com on.. that s rediculous! I can already hear peaple screaming.. "but u can fire first on the flankers.." and others i m sure are screaming something else.. well big deal.. all you have to do on the 15 is push the fire button and turn tail.. WOW that s some skill..

 

To prove my point, in one of the hyperlobby servers, after having spent a good 45 min on the Flanker (which i m pretty comfortable flying by now) and ending up with like 4 kills and 8 deaths i decided to "spam back" and show the F15s on the other side that anybody can fly one. I ended up with 9 kills and 8 deaths in 30 min.. The thing that gets me the most is that at some point i even got 2 kills just by SPAMMING 3 120s in the direction i was being locked on and then turning around and running away.. that s just lame. I m sure that plenty of F15 pilots will be greatly offended, but guys.. be realistic.. this is just the way things are (ok maybe it s just how I see things..that doesnt change the facts).

 

A shout to the developers.. this is a great game, the graphics are beautiful, flying around at low altitude is a rush, i m sure there are things that could be bettered but please first and foremost keep a balance.. It s not a written rule that since the game sells most in the US the F15 has to be "the better" plane..at least it shouldnt be that way..if there has to be a winner let it be because of the pilot .. not because of the plane. (Actually it s not even the plane, cause the F15 really looks and feels like some arcade game from the 80's, it s the ordinance it carries.. but i m sure if u were listening you got my point.)

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Flame away..

[D-Scythe]

Believe me, if the F-15C/AIM-120C was properly modelled, there would be *no spamming* - things will just die (in the hands of a good pilot of course). This combination is about a generation ahead of all the other flyables modelled in the game, save maybe the MiG-29S/R-77 (yay, half a generation ahead).

 

The F-15C has to be the better plane because it IS the best A/A fighter of all the flyables. It's already undermodelled as is for gameplay balance. However, unless ED models the Su-27SM, which is not only an excellent fighter but also can carry PGMs, we're sorta stuck with a porked F-15C and pilots who have to resort to spamming AMRAAMs.

[RvEFuSiOn]

Tropikal has a point, and i have to agree with him on this.

Im also sick of people printscreening and spamming amraams and turning tail and run.

This needs to be fixed in some way.

[Tropikal]

What i am saying is that giving autonomous radar missiles to one side/or to one plane only is like having a multiplayer FPS where one side has the atomic bomb and the other bayonettes.. Sure u can get kills with a bayonette if u r good enough.. but u dont have to be good to get kills when u got an atomic bomb.. it just HAPPENS. And you cant even compare the 120's to the 77's.. the mig can carry 4 at best, the F15 can carry 8 120s..

For sake of gameplay.. i wouldnt care if the game wasnt realistic to the dot.. actually let me rephrase.. i DONT care if it s not realistic.. but i DO care that the field be balanced. The game isnt realistic even as it is now.. but at least make it FAIR. Why favor 1 plane vs another ?

[Killer]

Life is NOT fair

In the big bad real world, there would be a lot more Flankers going down in flames than the F15.

 

I too prefer flying the Russian jets, and take it on the chin every time I get downed by an F15, but I sure savour every moment when I do get the better of an F15. When I do, I have beaten the odds and lived to tell the tale.

[51GRIZZLY]

Life is NOT fair

In the big bad real world, there would be a lot more Flankers going down in flames than the F15.

 

I too prefer flying the Russian jets, and take it on the chin every time I get downed by an F15, but I sure savour every moment when I do get the better of an F15. When I do, I have beaten the odds and lived to tell the tale.

 

Yea thats tre right Spirit :thumbup:

[Invicta]

Nicely said Killer.

[Tropikal]

Life is NOT fair

In the big bad real world, there would be a lot more Flankers going down in flames than the F15.

 

I too prefer flying the Russian jets, and take it on the chin every time I get downed by an F15, but I sure savour every moment when I do get the better of an F15. When I do, I have beaten the odds and lived to tell the tale.

 

While i bow to your skillz.. why do i have to keep buying vasilline until i reach your level just because the game is not balanced ?? Would u not prefer a fair world instead of the big bad one ? Dont tell me that you like the challenge.. a challenge is beating an expert pilot at your skill level, not a tard with a killer machine..

One more time.. the problem is not the F15 in itself.. it s what it carries.. take the 120 away and find out how many people cant get 1 kill to save their lives.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

I do, for sake of reality, agree that airplanes in Lock On are equipped with what they had (or still have) in active service.

 

What I do not understand, how did the MiG-29 ended up being able to carry R-77 and Su-27 did not? R-77 was available at the time Su-27 entered the service.

[Pilotasso]

I ll start off by saying that i am NOT an experienced pilot, i ve only been flying for 2 weeks, and this is the first sim i take in my hands, so if you want you can flame me for what i am about to say, i ll sure say it anyway because for once i feel let down, and second if i feel there is an issue i d like that to be known it s no use to keep it for myself.

 

Since i started playing the game i ve always been drawn to the 27.. i like its style and i like the way it handles. It s a tad complicated to learn but i ll get used to it in the end.

 

I have been playing on public servers on hyperlobby and the thing that gets me the most is that the battles are so unfair..

How is it fair to put up a 27 or a 33 vs an F15 ?? PILOT ASIDE, having a plane that carries autonomous radar missles vs a plane that has to keep a lock to even hope for a hit... com on.. that s rediculous! I can already hear peaple screaming.. "but u can fire first on the flankers.." and others i m sure are screaming something else.. well big deal.. all you have to do on the 15 is push the fire button and turn tail.. WOW that s some skill..

 

To prove my point, in one of the hyperlobby servers, after having spent a good 45 min on the Flanker (which i m pretty comfortable flying by now) and ending up with like 4 kills and 8 deaths i decided to "spam back" and show the F15s on the other side that anybody can fly one. I ended up with 9 kills and 8 deaths in 30 min.. The thing that gets me the most is that at some point i even got 2 kills just by SPAMMING 3 120s in the direction i was being locked on and then turning around and running away.. that s just lame. I m sure that plenty of F15 pilots will be greatly offended, but guys.. be realistic.. this is just the way things are (ok maybe it s just how I see things..that doesnt change the facts).

 

A shout to the developers.. this is a great game, the graphics are beautiful, flying around at low altitude is a rush, i m sure there are things that could be bettered but please first and foremost keep a balance.. It s not a written rule that since the game sells most in the US the F15 has to be "the better" plane..at least it shouldnt be that way..if there has to be a winner let it be because of the pilot .. not because of the plane. (Actually it s not even the plane, cause the F15 really looks and feels like some arcade game from the 80's, it s the ordinance it carries.. but i m sure if u were listening you got my point.)

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Flame away..

 

War is not fair. If you want balanced sides you better get into space SIM's. Im not joking. I have a few.

 

AMRAAM are only half as good in this game as the real thing. They are too slow, max speed is barely mach 2.5 and they brake too fast, and get spoofed too easely by chaff and clutter. As oposed to this Russian missiles are much faster. The best missile in this game is actualy russian. The R-77 is an autonomous missile as you put it and its faster and longer ranged than the AMRAAM. If it was realsitic, it would have similar speed and range but slighly worse sensor perfomace. Russians also have the R-27ET wich doesnt give any warning and will kill you from 20Km away. Hows that for fairness?

If your flying a flanker, facing an F-15 in equal terms 1 VS 1 is foolish, you need better tactics and this is what these kind of SIM's are for.

 

TW you opened a redundant thread because I made one to let people like you express their opinions and vote:

http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=19422

[spugnut]

I'm with Killer - second maxim of air combat is "You fight the pilot, not the plane."

 

Every air engagement in history has been unbalanced - there is no even ground. The only difference we have as virtual pilots is that there is no development of armament.. If you'd got back to home plate in reality and said "Those [insert country here] pilots have got a new missile, got my wingman and nearly smoked me." then I suspect that a team of developers would start working on countermeasures and better armament for your kite.

 

Don't worry about being shot down - that's part of the head game. If you believe that you are at a disadvantage, then you are.

[Tropikal]

I'm with Killer - second maxim of air combat is "You fight the pilot, not the plane."

 

I wish it was like that .. that was the point of the post actually.. make ppl realize that if u r flying the flanker u r not fighting the pilot.. u r actually fighting the plane AND the pilot (or better the missile and the pilot..in this case)

 

I m not worried about being shot down.. thats how i learn. It s going to get better, but for now i m just disappointed that the plain is not leveled.

 

To those that keep repeating the same brainwashing "life isnt fair" song, i really could care less if ur life is fair or not (with all due respect), i m playing the game for amusement and personal recreation.. i dont want to relive the crimean war, else i d go to the library, i want to be able to play a fair battle. ;)

[Ironhand]

What i am saying is that giving autonomous radar missiles to one side/or to one plane only is like having a multiplayer FPS where one side has the atomic bomb and the other bayonettes... i DONT care if it s not realistic... but i DO care that the field be balanced...

Welcome to the world of dissimilar air combat. I guess it depends on what's more important to you. Winning or enjoying the Su-27. Sometimes you don't get to have both, though by your own admission, you do enjoy both 25% of the time. The Sue is one of my favorites to fly. And, as you know, it's possible to win against the F-15. It just takes more cunning and, if available, teamwork online. So let the boys fly their Eagles and let the men fly the Sue. :) Personally I find the hunt more enjoyable than the kill.

 

Rich

[Pilotasso]

I'm with Killer - second maxim of air combat is "You fight the pilot, not the plane."

 

Wrong. ;)

 

"A brave hart will bring success to any fighterplane no matter how much technologicaly evolved it may be"

 

For pilot VS pilot thing go for Space sim's. But then your pain will be "he has a better stick or PC than me" or "I had a better plan but he was faster than me" and stuff like that.

[S77th-konkussion]

Trop- I can't add much to what's already been said here- but this is the way of the real world. In fact- the F15 & slammer in LOMAC is... pathetic compared to real world- and that's only the unclassified civilian version. It's real capabilities are known to but a few. LOMAC will hopefully NEVER be modeled for "gameplay balance" this would be insulting to anyone that calls themselves a simulation pilot.

 

That said- You are already on the right track. You've kicked it off properly by embracing the online world almost right out of the box. You've read what we've said and gotten on the comms channels. You listen intently when someone is trying to show you something, and I know you do lots of reading when you're not in pit. Your potential is limitless.

 

The advantage of the F15 is significant- don't feel obligated to take one on alone. Get some help. Make him fight YOUR way.

 

 

If you have 10 guys on your side (like last night) and none of them are on comms- they are being stupid. Yell at them about it! Tell em to get on the team or get lost. It's highly irritiating to fly with a bunch of stats-obsessed lone wolfs who cherry-pick targets to attack and mostly ignore teammates who need help. Feeling like you are the only one trying to do it right is frustrating. Don't put up with it. Say something.

 

As was shown last evening- 3 or 4 F15's that are not communicating & flying as a team will be defeated by a pair or 3 Flankers that are.

[spugnut]

lol pilotasso - I seem to remember there are four maxims:

 

1. Energy is life.

 

2. The brave heart (or any other variation on the theme.)

 

4. Never tell the enemy all you know.

[GGTharos]

I wish it was like that .. that was the point of the post actually.. make ppl realize that if u r flying the flanker u r not fighting the pilot.. u r actually fighting the plane AND the pilot (or better the missile and the pilot..in this case)

 

I m not worried about being shot down.. thats how i learn. It s going to get better, but for now i m just disappointed that the plain is not leveled.

 

To those that keep repeating the same brainwashing "life isnt fair" song, i really could care less if ur life is fair or not (with all due respect), i m playing the game for amusement and personal recreation.. i dont want to relive the crimean war, else i d go to the library, i want to be able to play a fair battle. ;)

 

And I don't care how much you want a 'level' playing field. The 27 has its advantages, and the F-15 has its advantages - this is a sim and as such it is not meant to 'level' the playing field, it is meant to simulate things. If you want a fair battle, I suggest playing Su-27vSu-27 with friends ;)

 

Already the AIM-120's short legs, slow speed and lack of resistance to countermeasures give you some easy ways to deal with it. You just don't know how, and you haven't managed to come up with a set of working evasive tactics.

 

Until you do, quit complaining: There's scores of flanker pilots who easily hold their own against F-15's.

 

 

When you actually fly both planes, master them and their weapons systems, -then- come back and make a comparison ;)

 

 

And what Konny said.

[Force_Feedback]

ok, I don't know about the real-life maddog performance of the aim-120, but when comared to the 'perfect guiding' F4AF aim-120s, its waaay too optimistic, and there is no lock delay either. But then again, the aim-9x had a range of 30nm in there :P

 

And please dont think ED are partial, they didn't have enough info on the f-15/120 when they developed lomac, so basically, the f-15 WAS more imcomplete than the other a-a fighters in game. Yet, even know, the things you have in-game (radar modes and alike, hud symbology, GAI) is 30% of the real world capabilities at most, this goes for all 1.12 flyables, the su-25(t) maybe 80%.

[3Sqn_Sven]

1. What GG Tharos said

 

2. It's a simulation, it's not meant to be balanced.

 

3. Get some time up

[Rhen]

:joystick: Ok, so you're having a tough time getting started in the flanker. Well, as a fighter pilot, you've got to remember two things.

 

1) Know the limitations your own skills and the aircraft you fly.

2) Know the limitations of the aircraft you're flying against and the pilots who fly them.

 

Fighter pilots spend almost as much time studying as they do briefing, flying, and debriefing sorties. So, with regards to the two things above:

 

1) I can do something about my skills and learn the strengths and weaknesses of the aircraft I fly. I can practice and use the strengths given to me in this aircraft. Practice against the AI, then go up with your buds and do some flying. Being good against the AI just means that you know how to use your aircraft, but it's no substitute for going up against humans. Go to Ironhand's website (see his post above), and download some tutorials on missile evasion. You'll find that using your RWR and flying your aircraft appropriately will make you nearly impossible to kill with the slammer (AIM-120) BVR. This allows you to remain in an offensive posture even though a slammer's coming at you (like that's possible IRL at LOMAC distances :megalol: )

 

Join a squadron who'll teach you how to fly your aircraft and ALSO watch your back on the servers so that you're not doing the "lone wolf" thing. You have a data link. This allows you a level of situational awareness not available to the Eagle drivers out there (even though the F-15 should also have this). This also allows you to rely more on EWR and AWACS than your own radar. You get the element of surprise on YOUR side. Your IR missiles perform way better than they can IRL, use that to your advantage. The only warning an Eagle driver will get is smoke off your rails. You're also flying a frikin' missile truck when you fly the flanker. You've got a bunch of missiles in your arsenal. There's more, but you should do some studying on your own.

 

2) Know the limitations of the F-15 - your apparent primary adversary and the one you're having such heartburn with. Try flying it around against the flanker. Know it's strengths and weaknesses, as well as the strenghts and weaknesses of its weapons. The radar is easily notched. It tends to drop lock around 20nm if there's a large altitude discrepancy between engaging aircraft, it can't really IFF close in, and that's just the limitations of the radar. With regards to the slammer - well it gets spoofed by chaff way too easy, and is easily kinematically defeated by understanding the missile (as modeled in LOMAC). Let's not talk about the other limitations that arent' RL limitations... you get the picture.

 

Finally, you're flying LOMAC for a reason (as am I, despite all the problems with the F-15), so this is what you currently have to work with. I hate the fact that pilots (of both sides whether they fly the Eagle, Fulcrum, Flanker, whatever) SPAM missiles. It's an annoying tactic, but there's easy counters to it. You can do some research, study and skill set improvement to work within this environment - or you can (how do you British say it?) whinge incessantly about how unfair it is (when it's really not because its all balanced gameplay in a sim that's more a game - arguably - than a sim, because of this fact).

 

I've said this before, Modern Air Combat isn't about fairness, it's about killing the other guy quickly, in a fight of your choosing - preferably - with as much of an advantage as you can get. This is a hell of a lot harder than chess, and requires more skill the more disadvantaged you are and the more advantaged your adversary is.

 

So, start studying, and do some flying to put that new knowledge to use. Good luck. :smartass:

[Sleek]

When i fly the F-15 I'm allways getting spanked by russian bird's!..but hey! sure feels good! :notworthy: :thumbup:

[Corsair7662]

One thing that really ticks me off is that every aircraft needs to be within 20 miles to launch in LOMAC, but in Payload selection it says the AMRAAM will go 50km, well what the hell is wrong with it? It dies out at 10 km and drifts to the target with its remaining speed and he could do a complete 90 degrees straight up and it will still kill him. Another thing about the AMRAAM in this game is that it is soo glitched, not to mention the secret of getting away from it is keeping your burners off because Evolved Games thinks its a heatseaker and its NOT, its an active radar missle that cant die unless it kills its designated target...

Plus I also hate getting launched on by the -33 with their 110km missles and I got missles less than half that! So I quickly dive for the ground, pull right up to 20000 feet and still it comes and gets me......Please make this game REALISTIC in the section of missle realism. Not to mention what Tropikal said about the -27 and -33 needing to keep a lock or it wont hit its target, well I got news for you. I will launch atleast 3 120's at an Su-27 and he wont die, and he fires 1 EM and gets me during hes running away, thats plain bullcrap.

[S77th-GOYA]

Tropikal, ask youself this: What capabilities does the LOMAC F-15 have that it shouldn't have?

 

Then reverse the question: What capabilities should the LOMAC F-15 have that it doesn't have?

 

Ask those questions about each fighter and see where you end up.

[Pilotasso]

lol pilotasso - I seem to remember there are four maxims:

 

1. Energy is life.

 

2. The brave heart (or any other variation on the theme.)

 

4. Never tell the enemy all you know.

 

What hapened to number 3? :wassat:

:lol:

 

One thing that really ticks me off is that every aircraft needs to be within 20 miles to launch in LOMAC, but in Payload selection it says the AMRAAM will go 50km, well what the hell is wrong with it? It dies out at 10 km and drifts to the target with its remaining speed and he could do a complete 90 degrees straight up and it will still kill him. Another thing about the AMRAAM in this game is that it is soo glitched, not to mention the secret of getting away from it is keeping your burners off because Evolved Games thinks its a heatseaker and its NOT, its an active radar missle that cant die unless it kills its designated target...

Plus I also hate getting launched on by the -33 with their 110km missles and I got missles less than half that! So I quickly dive for the ground, pull right up to 20000 feet and still it comes and gets me......Please make this game REALISTIC in the section of missle realism. Not to mention what Tropikal said about the -27 and -33 needing to keep a lock or it wont hit its target, well I got news for you. I will launch atleast 3 120's at an Su-27 and he wont die, and he fires 1 EM and gets me during hes running away, thats plain bullcrap.

 

A few corrections here. Brochure ranges are abtained in optimum conditions cuch as 30000 feet and head to head with the target at least mach 0.9 each. From Online gaming I seen you can shoot at 25 miles wich is almost the quoted range of 50km. Thing is that theres about 10 pilots online educated enough to fly F-15 high altitude tactics properly, almost everybody flies low.

 

1) you basicaly half the range of the missiles by flying low.

2) AMRAAM can reach 50km from hight altitude 30-40.000ft

3) but it will rarely hit because its too slow and has poor seeker perfomance.

 

If your getting nailed by Em's from that far its because you havent learned to dodge or minimize its chances of success by the use of proper tactics.

[MiGMadness]

One thing that really ticks me off is that every aircraft needs to be within 20 miles to launch in LOMAC, but in Payload selection it says the AMRAAM will go 50km, well what the hell is wrong with it? It dies out at 10 km and drifts to the target with its remaining speed and he could do a complete 90 degrees straight up and it will still kill him. Another thing about the AMRAAM in this game is that it is soo glitched, not to mention the secret of getting away from it is keeping your burners off because Evolved Games thinks its a heatseaker and its NOT, its an active radar missle that cant die unless it kills its designated target...

Plus I also hate getting launched on by the -33 with their 110km missles and I got missles less than half that! So I quickly dive for the ground, pull right up to 20000 feet and still it comes and gets me......Please make this game REALISTIC in the section of missle realism. Not to mention what Tropikal said about the -27 and -33 needing to keep a lock or it wont hit its target, well I got news for you. I will launch atleast 3 120's at an Su-27 and he wont die, and he fires 1 EM and gets me during hes running away, thats plain bullcrap.

 

:lol:

 

This post just proved that you don't know jack sh1t about missle performance envelope or the actually performance of missiles within lockon.

 

Here's a hint, roughly 1.6kms in a mile and most important......the ingame encyclopedia entries lie....... 110km missiles. Buhahahahaha :megalol:

 

Max range for an ER @ 5000m to a target @ 2000m is 40kms TOPS..... If all goes well and your target flies straight at you without ECM and chaff.

 

 

 

I love also the way that the servers with crap upload connections blame printscreening for all the warp. 20 players on a 1 MBit connection. :megalol:

 

You would be lucky to have 4 fps when even 1 missile is launched.