Control Scheme UI Overhaul

[Mars Exulte]

I never even thought of this until "helping" in a nearby thread, but it suddenly dawned on me how backwards this whole controller interface is. I flipped through a couple pages of "wishlist" stuff and didn't see any reference, so I'm going to create one officially here as a suggestion.

 

 

 

 

The way the current control scheme screen works is each controller having it's own, separate column, in some cases (read : enthusiasts and pit builders) this can result in a dozen or more columns requiring a scroll bar off to one side.

 

Profiles are both saved and imported, or even cleared... PER CONTROLLER and PER AIRCRAFT. As mentioned just now, this means potentially MANY required actions. In my personal case, in order to save controller profiles for ONE aircraft CURRENTLY requires six profiles (plus one more externally via FlightPanels). I have a dozen aircraft roughly. That means ballparkish of one hundred profiles required.

 

Think about that for a moment. Really think about it. That. Is. Absurd. There is no reasonable explanation for that, no logical "why". It has nothing to do with the way the game works. It has nothing to do with how modules are made. It is 100% a DCS UI design choice that needs to die horribly with fire.

 

 

 

#1 It is not necessary that each controller have it's own column along the top of the screen, scrolling off the edge of the list to one side. All that's necessary is a row of commands along the left side of the screen, a column for keyboard commands next to it, and then a column for game controller commands next to that. THREE columns, only two of which have to do with inputs. And you could technically combine the keyboard and game controller columns into one. The current setup makes the controller screen unnecessarily complicated.

 

#2 Creating a profile should save ALL PRESENT CONTROLLERS, you should NOT have to select them individually and create a separate profile for EACH controller. Same for importing. You should not have to import individual controllers, one by one. Just. Do. ALL of them. At one time. If you try to import a profile that includes controllers you don't have, just disregard the missing controllers and move along.

 

#3 Have a clear all button that actually clears ALL. You shouldn't have to go through, one controller at a time and wipe them. Just. Delete. All of them. At one time.

 

#4 At present, you cannot just simply click on a command, say Flaps Toggle, and assign a device button. You have to find the column for THAT device and THEN you can do it. Just... Don't. Click the command, then click the button you want. Don't make us sort through the spreadsheet.

 

#5 Point conceded

 

#6 Add or replace the current export, with just a general purpose "EXPORT" button. It can ask if you want to export JUST this aircraft or ALL aircraft. Why do we even have to save profiles per aircraft? Why doesn't it just export EVERYTHING in the first place? It doesn't need to broke up into individual aircraft.

 

 

 

How is this game 10 years old, having undergone multiple rebuilds and re-engines in that timeframe... still using this clunky UI that makes no sense? This is just about streamlining what the player sees on his end, in essence, and vastly simplifying an extremely common activity.

 

100 profiles... just keep thinking about that. In order to save profiles for all my aircraft, I need about 100 of them :huh:

Edited March 16, 2017 by zhukov032186

[the_soupdragon]

great post. This needs to be a thing. :thumbup:

 

SD

[shagrat]

You can clear per category(!) for any individual controller(!).

 

Select the category (View, Axis, Weapons, etc.) and then click into a controller column (controller name highlighted).

 

Now if you 'clear' only the selected category is cleared.

 

It is very useful to be able to save individual controllers profile, as you can now copy individual controller setups between friends without overwriting everything.

An additional save all button is a nice idea though.

 

The reason for the columns is pretty simple, lots of people (like me) have half a dozen USB HID-devices attached, and in use. Joystick, Throttle, Rudder pedals, 2 MFDs, 2 home built USB controllers (switches mainly) and a radio switch board in the making.

A good idea would be the ability to "hide" unused columns, or better put them to the far right of the controller list via a checkbox.

 

Most important for me is, do not 'simplify' away anything that is required to use any combination of controllers, modifiers and detailed adjustment, just for making it easier!

The possibility to make complex adjustments and setings for personal controller setups is vital for this flight sim.

[rogonaut]

The reason for the columns is pretty simple, lots of people (like me) have half a dozen USB HID-devices attached, and in use. Joystick, Throttle, Rudder pedals, 2 MFDs, 2 home built USB controllers (switches mainly) and a radio switch board in the making.

 

i always get like 10 keyassigns that are the same across all my different devices. it annoys me that i can only delete them one by one at a time and that is for each plane after updates. strangeley enough profiles didnt fix that issues if i recall correct. would be nice to be able to mark bigger areas like in my case and delete them wrong inputs all together. what is actually causing this or does anyone else have this problem?

 

it would be awesome if could have an option to have one profile, but still being able to give a single planes controlls to a friends would be even better.

[shagrat]

i always get like 10 keyassigns that are the same across all my different devices.

That is, because DirectX treats all devices as USB-HID and if DCS cannot identify the Joystick by its Vendor/DeviceID it uses a standard "Flight joystick" profile so a newbie with a basic stick, gets at least a basic axis and buttons mapping.

 

It annoys me that i can only delete them one by one at a time and that is for each plane after updates. strangeley enough profiles didnt fix that issues if i recall correct. would be nice to be able to mark bigger areas like in my case and delete them wrong inputs all together. what is actually causing this or does anyone else have this problem?

That shouldn't happen since 1.2 as profiles now save a <controllerID>.diff.lua in your config settings, that contains ALL changes to the default.lua. E.g. if you delete all default buttons on the Joystick, then add only two axis and 3 buttons, it will set the axis to your settings, "delete" all default buttons and add your 3 buttons as set, each time the sim loads.

If an update changes the default.lua for that module it may add the "new" buttons, as there is no "delete" action in the *.diff.lua files, but that should only happen, while modules are in beta and still being worked on.

it would be awesome if could have an option to have one profile, but still being able to give a single planes controlls to a friends would be even better.

In a certain way, you already have "one" profile, that is ALL the *.diff.lua files in the config/<aircraft name> folder...

 

You can backup that one even copy it between installs, yet it is recommended to not copy it, just in case there are changes between release, beta or alpha of DCS.

For me it worked pretty well most of the time.

 

For a backup, simply copy the Userprofile/saved games/DCS xxx/config/<aircraft name> folders to a separate location so you can restore them.

Profiles are to save settings and recall them and to exchange settings with others.

[Mars Exulte]

I am almost 100% certain, Shagrat, you are missing the point.

 

I have a large number of controllers, too. All those columns are unnecessary! All you need is a space beside the command for inputs, like every other game on the planet does. It doesn't have to be displayed as a gigantic spreadsheet. That's a minor issue, though. As for exporting/importing specific controllers, yeah, I can see occasionally that being useful... you know what would be even MORE useful? The ability to just export everything in a single file, and the ability to import everything in a single file! It shouldn't be a twenty step process to save an aircraft profile. It should be *click* *enter filename* *enter* *DONE*.

 

I'm not talking about REMOVING functionality. I'm talking about streamlining a process that is an unnecessarily complicated pain in the ass. I get it that DCS has more commands, and support for more controllers, than any other game. It also doesn't matter. Every other game on the planet includes the ability to save all your commands to one file. This one should, too. There is NO reason not to.

 

And I'm not too fond of the autoassigning commands to everything, either. It's not 'newbie friendly' it causes more problems than it solves. If somebody comes in with a basic joystick, it will take them all of tens seconds to completely configure it. As opposed to us having to go through two dozen columns deleting all the random gibberish DCS throws in there. Again, facilitated by the absence of any ability to simply wipe all commands.

 

Complexity for the sake of complexity is not '1337' or 'good'. It's just bad UI and needs streamlining.

Edited March 16, 2017 by zhukov032186

[Pikey]

Do you mean that the columns should be folded in to one column which supports just one or multiple controller ID? I'm trying to make sure I understand the point of the suggestion.

So for example, I have air brakes on the left, along the top, assignments and against airbrakes an entry for B for keyboard, Switch 15 for hotas throttle and potentially other controllers, inside the one column? In which case there is still a problem when assigning multiple controllers to the same command, in that you always have a minimum of two assigned and can support much more, should you want it, but no way of displaying them seperately and clearly in one column without going into it?

[pbsmgm]

In spite of all these various ways to get through the vast array of controller setups and profiles, I completely agree with zhukov032186 that an overhaul is overdue. Veterans already have their hours in the controls so they don't feel the pain anymore. And it's not about novices with a controller as zhukov032186 also mentioned. Most flight sim novices won't even touch a sophisticated sim like this one so why even consider catering to them? The focus and effort and design and for all the points zhukov032186 made, clearly there needs to be a quicker way to setup the game for sophisticated setups. Currently, I only have about 10 aircraft and 3 controllers. But five years ago when I had more space and was fully setup, I had 5 controllers and several other input devices and it was an absolute nightmare. I spent more time in the setup than I did flying and learning the planes. So I can totally understand zhukov032186 's point and I agree with his point of view not just accept it because we have to cater to novices. DCS/ED needs to cater to real pilots, advanced sim pilots, and sophisticated setups, period.

Edited March 16, 2017 by pbsmgm

[Scaley]

I think what zhukov032186 is suggesting is 2 columns, on for keyboard commands and one for all other (Dx, HID, etc) controllers, on the assumption that you are unlikely to want several different buttons to do the exact same thing, but you might want one button plus a keyboard command.

 

I can see potentially that there are some set-ups where this might not be enough, but the basic premise remains - why is there a distinct column for each controller. As already stated no other game I can think of does this. You just select what input you want. You can have unlimited columns as long as each one can accept any input device, this meaning most people will only use one or two columns, and the pit builders can keep using 15...

[Mars Exulte]

Exactly. If for some reason, an individual wants to display everything per controller, you could provide a toggle somewhere that switches back and forth between each controller having its own column and everything being condensed into a much simpler display like everyone else does. Having a dozen controllers doesn't have anything to do with how this stuff has to display.

 

As Scaley correctly surmises, most people, including pit builders (myself rapidly becoming one of them) are unlikely to have multiple controllers triggering the same command. Even where that IS the case, it would the exception rather than the norm, for example controls that are both on tertiary panels and on a HOTAS HAT switch. You just extend the list out "Flaps Toggle : F;Joy #1 Btn #2; Joy #5 Btn #3;" <--- See? Simple

 

Again, this is a minor griping point. The major issue is that everything operates on that basis, including profiles, clearing commands, DCS assigning random junk to EVERYTHING you plug in.

 

The control setup for this thing is complicated enough already by its nature (somebody said the Viggen had over 400 commands). The way things are just make it even worse by making the time consuming, but relatively straightforward task of assigning commands into "navigate the spreadsheet, make sure you don't overlook any of your controls... Oh, and make sure you save EACH one separately. And when you do it, make sure you maintain a very rigid and clear naming system, because you're going to have to hunt all these down one by one some day." I would like to draw attention to a related facet : You can't just click the command, and press the button on the desired device. You have to find the column for THAT device, then press the button, making sure you are clicking on the correct box. Because if you click on the WRONG box or the WRONG column, either nothing happens, or you just misassigned.

 

 

 

This is an extremely simple process in every game out there, but in DCS it is NOT intuitive, and takes trial and error to figure out how to... Save a profile? To assign your controls properly? I mean, if you need to watch a tutorial video or come ask on the forums how to do what should be "click on line, click desired button, SAVE" there's a big problem, and it's not with the consumer.

 

I'll readily admit, I'm first to jump on the L2P bandwagon when dealing with noobs and whiners, but this is legitimately something deserving of complaint :)

 

 

-edit

 

OP edited to add #4, mentioned above in bold.

OP edited to add #5, mentioned above and in other threads, usually in the breath of annoyance. Re-edited as point was conceded.

OP edited to add #6, regarding profiles again

Edited March 16, 2017 by zhukov032186

[shagrat]

I am almost 100% certain, Shagrat, you are missing the point.

I am 90% sure I do... :smartass:

Every other game on the planet includes the ability to save all your commands to one file. This one should, too. There is NO reason not to.

As I already said, I agree on that one. Though you may run into a bit of trouble, after you replace or upgrade any of the devices, but I guess you could simply filter for available devices during load.

 

And I'm not too fond of the autoassigning commands to everything, either. It's not 'newbie friendly' it causes more problems than it solves. If somebody comes in with a basic joystick, it will take them all of tens seconds to completely configure it. As opposed to us having to go through two dozen columns deleting all the random gibberish DCS throws in there.

First let me ask you, do you know of ANY game or simulation that does not provide a default control setup and require you to manually configure ALL your controls before you have a go with the game?

Imagine a new guy downloading DCS World, plugging in his old Logitech Wingman 3D or Saitek Cyborg stick and click "Instant Action" to find himself confronted with the requirement, to "configure" even the basic x-, y- and twist-axis and the POV hat to look around, plus the trigger and bomb pickle. :doh:

 

How many people do you know, who would appreciate this?

 

Second, the "random gibberish" is what the default setup is mapping to an "unknown" USB-HID Game controller through DirectX. Pitch and roll axis on X and Y axis of the stick, throttle on the slider1, Rudder on the Twist (rZ)-Axis and Gun Trigger to Button 1, Bomb release to Button 2 etc.

 

"Unknown" means DCS could not find a matching config for the device attached. Now, you could nicely ask the developers and 3rd parties to build matching setups for a billion of possible combinations of devices, or accept the fact, that if you are a professional flight simmer, with an assortment of complex input devices, you need to go through the process of setting up your half dozen controllers for each new module the first time you fly it.

 

You need to do this only once, as the <controllerID>.diff.lua saves all your configuration settings and keeps it across updates (unless you have a pre-purchase/beta module).

 

If there is a way to identify which of the USB-HID Controllers is the "Joystick" based on a USB Vendor- and DeviceID, without maintaining a device list of all USB-HID devices on the planet, I guess ED devs would love to know about it.

 

As of know, it is either NO default setup for any device (Newcomers may not enjoy, this) or the option to configure multiple devices in any possible combination.

 

I prefer the little annoyance of deleting unnecessary keys and axis once during setup to fails I've seen in lots of games, that only support specific Gamepads, can only allow a single game controller, or mess up controls after USB-slots changed...

 

Again, facilitated by the absence of any ability to simply wipe all commands.

 

Complexity for the sake of complexity is not '1337' or 'good'. It's just bad UI and needs streamlining.

A "wipe all" feature is a good idea, I would go for solution where you can put a checkmark on all columns you want to wipe and have the "clear all" button ask once "if you really want to delete all selected setttings" and then, wipe the checked columns.

 

About the "merge all columns into just a Keyboard, and Joystick one" I agree with the posters before, you may want to deliberately have even multiple controller axis assigned or different buttons on different controllers trigger the same action.

 

As I've said above, a cool feature would be, to sort the columns so you could put "unused" devices to the far right, thus keeping the main controls in one block with less/no need for scrolling.:thumbup:

Edited March 16, 2017 by shagrat

[Mars Exulte]

Hi, Shagrat :) Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like a twit. I must have misunderstood your wording. Anyway, yeah, those kind of compromises would work, too. I also concede to your point regarding auto-setup.

Edited March 16, 2017 by zhukov032186

[shagrat]

Hi, Shagrat :) Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like a twit. I must have misunderstood your wording. Anyway, yeah, those kind of compromises would work, too.

No problemo, just it isn't that simple as it looks in the first place.

 

I'm actually very happy with the *.diff.lua file solution.

Before 1.2 with all configs copied into a file that changed everytime you got new keys, it was a real "pita". :D

 

I can't remember how many times I completely redid the whole config of the Huey during Beta development phase. :doh:

 

Maybe we are lucky and ED guys can "optimize" this a bit. Yet, I doubt it would be a high priority on the list.:smilewink:

[OutLord]

The controller Interface is one of the best I've seen in any game or sim. DONT'T CHANGE IT!

[The LT]

#7 TOGGLE MODES.

 

#8 TOGGLE MODES.

 

#9 AND SOME MORE TOGGLE Modes...

 

Seriously, we need toggle switches. I am so tired of editing the control luas to get toggle switches working. RAZBAM are the only ones who got it right with the Mirage 2000 and their "3-pos-switch abstractions".

 

We need a generic way of making Toggle/3Pos switches work.

[The LT]

The controller Interface is one of the best I've seen in any game or sim. DONT'T CHANGE IT!

 

While it's much better than most others, it could use some improvement.

[cichlidfan]

Not only an overhaul but a standard. ED needs to establish and ENFORCE a standard control scheme for all 3rd parties. Right now everyone does their own thing for no particular reason.

[Mars Exulte]

Toggle modes?

 

 

Ah, yeah, a unified scheme would be nice, but even on my wishlist it's probably fantasy. For one, it would require going back a redoing all the internal scripting in every module thus released. And secondly, the complexity of many of them would likely result in only the most basic of functions having direct parallels, I expect. I don't mind configuring each aircraft if it waan't such a pain to do so.

 

 

 

@Outland

Did you even read the first post?

You're literally the only guy so far to dispute it needs a once over.

[probad]

imo this isnt anywhere as urgent an issue as you are trying to make it out to be

 

would a smarter control ui be better? i dont think anyone can dispute that, but the current setup has never stopped anyone who is actually passionate about aircraft.

Edited March 19, 2017 by probad

[shagrat]

Toggle modes?

 

 

Ah, yeah, a unified scheme would be nice, but even on my wishlist it's probably fantasy. For one, it would require going back a redoing all the internal scripting in every module thus released. And secondly, the complexity of many of them would likely result in only the most basic of functions having direct parallels, I expect. I don't mind configuring each aircraft if it waan't such a pain to do so.

 

 

 

@Outland

Did you even read the first post?

You're literally the only guy so far to dispute it needs a once over.

 

Won't have anything to do with "internal" scripting, at all.

Only the input mapping needs to be adjusted. Basically switch left/right-click to match a standard left up/right down scheme, left and hold for rotaries(!), as there are indeed people with NO mouse wheel. For dual rotaries a right and hold, would be nice for the outer rotary etc.

 

No magic or complete rework needed just mapping the DirectX inputs in a standardized way.

And the Huey's On/Off switch-rotary combo is also possible, by doing the switch, when you "release" the mouse-button and haven't changed a value, or simple right-click, hold and move up is ON, move down is OFF.

 

A more standard way of control setup that fits 99% of the controls out there and does not require "relearning" switchology for each new module is highly appreciated, I guess. @chichlidfan -

[Mars Exulte]

Ahhh, switch toggles, I getcha. I never thought of that. Yeah, that would work nicely!

 

What I meant by internal scripting is the internal language they use between modules would need to be uniform, for example the #Flaps_UP/DOWN would need to be the same across all modules, but some modules do not seem to have simply 'up/down' they have specific positions, etc, implying the 'game language' behind them is probably different. You could realistically only unify basic functions, imo, as more plane specific commands would be different unless you started forcibly streamlining functionality between them.

 

@probad

It isn't about it being 'urgent' it's about it being a quality of life improvement that should have been done ten years ago. Do people make do? Yes. A one legged man can drive a standard transmission vehicle, too, but it doesn't mean it isn't awkward. People 'can make do' doesn't make it alright that it's a needlessly conlmplicated mess.

[shagrat]

Ahhh, switch toggles, I getcha. I never thought of that. Yeah, that would work nicely!

 

What I meant by internal scripting is the internal language they use between modules would need to be uniform, for example the #Flaps_UP/DOWN would need to be the same across all modules, but some modules do not seem to have simply 'up/down' they have specific positions, etc, implying the 'game language' behind them is probably different. You could realistically only unify basic functions, imo, as more plane specific commands would be different unless you started forcibly streamlining functionality between them.

 

@probad

It isn't about it being 'urgent' it's about it being a quality of life improvement that should have been done ten years ago. Do people make do? Yes. A one legged man can drive a standard transmission vehicle, too, but it doesn't mean it isn't awkward. People 'can make do' doesn't make it alright that it's a needlessly conlmplicated mess.

 

The flaps is a good example, for the typical complications.

A-10C (as the real plane) has a three position flaps switch where the positions switch predefined positions: UP - MANEUVER - LANDING

 

The Bf.109 K4 on the other hand, has a wheel, you need to operate, best represented by a "turn wheel clockwise" and a "turn wheel counter-clockwise" whenever you stop turning the wheel, it stays where you stop.

 

Other planes (FW-190, L-39C) have three separate buttons that you push down.

 

So there is virtually no way of just having a flaps UP/DOWN command.

 

What would help, though, would be a standardized way of operating three way switches, buttons and wheels, that work with mouse as well as keyboard/button commands.

 

Like with the Mirage 2000C, where different options are available to cater three way switches, like with the HOTAS Warthog in addition to keyboard commands and mouse controls.

 

A reliable standard way "if it is a knob or wheel, it works like this with mouse, like that with a three way switch and like this with keyboard buttons" would tremendously help to operate and switch, between different modules.

[Johnny Dioxin]

I was just coming to post a similar request myself, having just spent over 2 hours importing the profiles for my modules for both 1.5 and 2.

 

It would have been less, but because it's so unstable, loading more than two or three (sometimes even just one) at a time risks losing the last few loaded. The sim needs to be closed and restarted for that - every two, three or less configs.

 

That's 5 controllers each, in my case, for 30 units. 150 profiles for each sim = 300 profiles to be loaded, not counting the ones that have to be repeated when DCS World decides to throw a wobbler (this with a brand new, clean install of windows and DCSW 1 & 2). Plus who knows how many restarts of the sim.

 

At the very least, being able to load each units' complete config in one go would be very welcome.

[shagrat]

I was just coming to post a similar request myself, having just spent over 2 hours importing the profiles for my modules for both 1.5 and 2.

 

It would have been less, but because it's so unstable, loading more than two or three (sometimes even just one) at a time risks losing the last few loaded. The sim needs to be closed and restarted for that - every two, three or less configs.

 

That's 5 controllers each, in my case, for 30 units. 150 profiles for each sim = 300 profiles to be loaded, not counting the ones that have to be repeated when DCS World decides to throw a wobbler (this with a brand new, clean install of windows and DCSW 1 & 2). Plus who knows how many restarts of the sim.

 

At the very least, being able to load each units' complete config in one go would be very welcome.

Copy the corresponding aircraft's folder in <your profile> /saved games/config/

What you want is the *.diff.lua files.

 

You can copy these to different dcs installs in the same machine, or simply make a backup for restore later.

[Johnny Dioxin]

Of course, that's what I'm talking about.

 

You still have to apply those profiles that you have saved, and that adds up to the 300 profiles I mentioned (one each for the MFDs, one each for HOTAS and one for the rudder - and most modules I have changed the keyboard assignments, too) - which took over 2 hours just to load into the various modules.

 

Okay, once we have a single DCS World (say 2.5) it will be a quicker job - but it still will take a good hour - and it could be a lot less if we could apply them a module at a time, instead of a device at a time.

 

So instead of having to load 5 profiles for the A-10C, I would just load one, consisting of all 5 device assignments.

 

The sim is also still getting overloaded just loading saved profiles, too. I know this doesn't just happen to me, because other members have mentioned it, too.