I'm useless in MP

[Reflected]

I know it must have been discussed a zillion times, but I came late to the party.

 

I've flown F5E-s on the ACG cold war server, and have a kill ratio of about 50:1. I felt virtually untouchable. I went out hugging the ground, spotted some 21-s, shot them down without them suspecting anything, and even if they tried to evade I stayed glued to them. Real fighter jock's dream.

 

That is, until I bought the 21. I love this plane. Amazing FM and everything. But it's damn near useless online, at least with me at the controls.

 

1) I can't speak Russian, so the AWACS is not really helpful

2) if I fly high, it's still hard to find bogeys, and the RWR is non existent basically. And totally not helpful against AIM-9s.

3) so I go low down, hugging the ground, but the 21 is a lot more visible than the F5, so usually I explode from one second to the other. Visibility from the 21 is horrible compared to the F5.

4) even if I spot an F5, he is on my tail in a second, and I cannot shake him off.

 

So now I have a kill ration of 1:50.

 

How do you guys do it?!

 

Thanks in advance!

[razo+r]

1) use subtitles

2) fly low ;) be sneaky and use awacs

3) check your six and get a proper SA

4) You can outaccelerate him, use this advantage and now you can also outroll him, do something with that

[Spectrum Legacy]

You wasn't useless... you shot me down today! :D Sure I was friendly, but I didn't see you sneaking in and haven't expected that ambush, although I suspected something was amiss on my 6.

 

I don't know what's the difference in awacs between the blue and red, but imo it's quite straightforward for the red. It's just in meters and kilometers.

 

I've also noticed that almost everything in that mission happens very near the ground. F5 just flies its route among the hills near bullseye very low, mig flies over it, afterburner + immelman turn and 9P launch. Rinse and repeat, then rearm at the forward airbase - you can be an ace in one day as long as the mig keeps coming.

 

I guess you can do similar thing with the mig, except the cockpit view is worse + no radar use that low except fixed beam (I assume f5 won't use it much as well, unless they want to tickle you with the guns). Also red awacs is dead quite often, but blue rarely it seems (good grief). It's somewhat stacked against you as a mig driver in that scenario I reckon, but it's just my observation. Also we have to practice more! :P

[BadHabit]

90% of all my Mig kills are with R3R flying high and taking the fight Head On, Dive and re enter the fight with energy. I really don't understand why ppl fly so low always, especially with the mig. You are vulnerable to everything you can't see or has wheels and guns, IR missiles and you can't gain any energy. Fly high and use your advantages.

I can't agree on the current FM's greatness tho.

[razo+r]

90% of all my Mig kills are with R3R flying high and taking the fight Head On, Dive and re enter the fight with energy. I really don't understand why ppl fly so low always, especially with the mig. You are vulnerable to everything you can't see or has wheels and guns, IR missiles and you can't gain any energy. Fly high and use your advantages.

I can't agree on the current FM's greatness tho.

 

people fly low to sneak up to bandits, and most people fly low, so being low increases the chance to see someone

 

If you can't see anything, you either have bad settings or you aren't used to the current system. And every plane is vulnerable to everything, like your oponent for example ;)

 

I think you have to find your own flying style, and to do that try stuff out and learn and take your time

[BadHabit]

The current visible system is the most horrible that exists in comparison to any other flight or combat sim and if you read my post you will see that I have my own style of flying. Yes I won't find a bunch of guys to fight but the few I'll find the fewer will become :p

[razo+r]

The current visible system is the most horrible that exists in comparison to any other flight or combat sim and if you read my post you will see that I have my own style of flying. Yes I won't find a bunch of guys to fight but the few I'll find the fewer will become :p

 

Yeah sorry, the last part of the previous post would have been for reflected, not you

[Sarraceno]

You wasn't useless... you shot me down today! :D Sure I was friendly, but I didn't see you sneaking in and haven't expected that ambush, although I suspected something was amiss on my 6.

 

I don't know what's the difference in awacs between the blue and red, but imo it's quite straightforward for the red. It's just in meters and kilometers.

 

I've also noticed that almost everything in that mission happens very near the ground. F5 just flies its route among the hills near bullseye very low, mig flies over it, afterburner + immelman turn and 9P launch. Rinse and repeat, then rearm at the forward airbase - you can be an ace in one day as long as the mig keeps coming.

 

I guess you can do similar thing with the mig, except the cockpit view is worse + no radar use that low except fixed beam (I assume f5 won't use it much as well, unless they want to tickle you with the guns). Also red awacs is dead quite often, but blue rarely it seems (good grief). It's somewhat stacked against you as a mig driver in that scenario I reckon, but it's just my observation. Also we have to practice more! :P

Actually fishbed should be better flying low. Radar scans front-up and the radar screen shows moreso the same view from the cockpit, actually you should be able to lock an IR missile without looking at the piper, you can do the same immelman-shoot maneuver, even better you can iff the contact without lock, so you can concentrate in the maneuver itself

[Reflected]

Thanks for the advice, and sorry about the team kill. I'd never seen az Albatros online so I was so happy that an A10 would finally be my first kill in the 21! :D what a rookie mistake...

 

I'll try and turn the subtitles on, and see if that helps. Nie gavaryou pa roosky...

 

Up high I still feel very voulnerable because the RWR is so bad. It doesn't help my SA at all.

[Fri13]

 

1) I can't speak Russian, so the AWACS is not really helpful

 

Odd if there isn't at least subtitles... But yes, at least capability have a English radio (with Russian accent) would be nice via client side option.

 

2) if I fly high, it's still hard to find bogeys, and the RWR is non existent basically. And totally not helpful against AIM-9s.

 

First, what RWR is useful against IR-missiles? Answer is none.

Secondly, the DCS is lacking a GCI, a crucial element that Soviet aircrafts were design upon. You always had a GCI to cover you and they were as situational aware as your wingman would be. You really need a human GCI in MP but the problem is that DCS doesn't offer tools (there is at least that one mod but...) to be good for that.

 

3) so I go low down, hugging the ground, but the 21 is a lot more visible than the F5, so usually I explode from one second to the other. Visibility from the 21 is horrible compared to the F5.

 

What can you do, a interceptor, designed to be used with GCI why rear and corner visibility isn't such a problem, and then you are alone without a wingman where both of you would be doing a periodical rear checks, and then you go to fly low where you are not suppose to be flying.

 

4) even if I spot an F5, he is on my tail in a second, and I cannot shake him off.

 

So now I have a kill ration of 1:50.

 

How do you guys do it?!

 

Thanks in advance!

 

It is difficult to say when the Mig-21Bis flight modeling has changed so radically in the years. At the start it was easy to get behind F-5, F-4 or even F-15. Then suddenly you couldn't even roll than 90 degree a second and had huge terrible inertia slipping that the aircraft didn't like to stay in course. That drove me away from the module as it was just fight to fly it even on level.

Now it is again totally different what I tested yesterday for 20min 1vs1 quick match against F-4 and I couldn't shake it at all, not even to accelerate away from it, that F-4 (both are clean) just out maneuvered, out-accelerated and out-everything. But that is an AI.

 

But the thing is. Mig-21Bis now requires from me to totally re-learn the whole aircraft. Old habits die hard and they are nothing else than death weight.

 

But I wouldn't go low with any other aircraft than CAS ones, as they weren't designed for it and you always have disadvantage with the fighters when hugging the ground. You don't have vertical space to gain energy if needed nor maneuver.

 

One day DCS gets realism to the combat and people stop air quake at ground level as they notice it is nothing else than unwise and deathwish.

[BadHabit]

One day DCS gets realism to the combat and people stop air quake at ground level as they notice it is nothing else than unwise and deathwish.

 

Amen, brother!

[Spectrum Legacy]

Thanks for the advice, and sorry about the team kill. I'd never seen az Albatros online so I was so happy that an A10 would finally be my first kill in the 21! :D what a rookie mistake...

 

I'll try and turn the subtitles on, and see if that helps. Nie gavaryou pa roosky...

 

Up high I still feel very voulnerable because the RWR is so bad. It doesn't help my SA at all.

 

No worries really, it was fun and also I've managed to bellyland at our base so I wasn't your first official full kill at least :D To be honest I get friendlyfired on often ... as nobody expects albatros and also wingtip-tanks looks like f5 missile rails, straight wings like a10...i.e. it just doesn't look like friend in mig21 which people expect for quick visual ID. Also saw you shot down either a10 or f5 some moments later, so I think you are doing well already. Naturally it's just the first wall of differences and issues when you get into a new module/plane that works different to what you are used and need to practice, adapt and get the hang of it (at least you don't have to relearn the feel for the new FM :P).

 

About awacs, I do use subtitles in the upper left corner of the screen too (I thought they were on by default). I just listen to the first part when awacs calls my number, which I've learned to discern (some numbers are easier, standing out more) and then I check the subtitles for coords. The coordinates provided are relative to you, towards the target, not the bullseye.

 

SA suffers because of the cockpit visibility, but for me also in general dcs, spotting contacts/visibility system is far from ideal. At certain fov/zoom, the models are almost invisible at certain distances depending on lod of the model, and it's always back and forth when lod changes- same old story that was mentioned countless times on forums.

 

 

Actually fishbed should be better flying low. Radar scans front-up and the radar screen shows moreso the same view from the cockpit, actually you should be able to lock an IR missile without looking at the piper, you can do the same immelman-shoot maneuver, even better you can iff the contact without lock, so you can concentrate in the maneuver itself

 

True, flying lower than the target is the idea for the radar to work, but not as low as most of the flights at the airquake happens, which are ~250m above ground. At such altitude, the radar is very limited because of the ground return. I don't use piper for IR/gun engagements at all tbh, I have it off. Fixed net for gunning + tone/light for IR. I know that some people use the unrealistic piper following the IR source mode, but I find it distracting - it might help with locating the bandit I guess, if you briefly loose him visually as it disappears for a moment because of reasons (as long as you are within the IR trail). About iff you are right, I do iff at greater distances when I can't identify the contact visually, but for that you have to be at some altitude and/or distance to see the contacts on the radar in first place.

Not saying it can't be done though, just the scenario proves decent challenge to most people.

[Dehuman]

1. Altitude. If the Tigers don't get you while you're mowing lawns the Stingers will.

2. AWACS (hopefully it's not stuck on the runway)

3. Avoid the hills if possible.

4. Only scan with radar in short bursts. Alternatively use your radar to bait F-5s into a trap.

5. Use R3R. Unlikely to hit but will force them to defend giving you the advantage.

[Sarraceno]

Well that's right too, i dunno what is the reason dogfights are happening in a so low altitude. I'm new in DCS so no idea how it happened. In certain other sim where i play too odd are the aerial combats below 10.000-15.000 feet... and usually they go that low due to defensive maneuvers

[BadHabit]

They usually fly low to avoid detection, flank you and try to degrade your advantage over radar and in DCS to be able to see you, since contrast of air frames and light does not favor us in DCS. For an F-5 pilot to go low and use his maneuverability advantage over the Mig I found it complete logical, but for an Air Superiority fighter like f-15, 27 etc I can only be sad about it.

However forcing F-5 to climb to fight you is the best, plus forcing the to reject the radar coverage of the ground will make GCI to have them in his picture.

[Reflected]

I tried all your advice in practice. Went online and shot my first enemy plane down with an R3R. I stayed high, and I felt relatively safe. I ventured down once, and I was duly shot down by an F5E that I didn't see at all.

 

My main problems were that the AWACS was spammed by players, so even the subtitles didn't help. Also, when I saw some enemy contacts on my radar in turns, I lost them as soon as I straightened out. Anyway, slowly, but getting there! :)

[Wright_GR1]

I tried all your advice in practice. Went online and shot my first enemy plane down with an R3R. I stayed high, and I felt relatively safe. I ventured down once, and I was duly shot down by an F5E that I didn't see at all.

 

My main problems were that the AWACS was spammed by players, so even the subtitles didn't help. Also, when I saw some enemy contacts on my radar in turns, I lost them as soon as I straightened out. Anyway, slowly, but getting there! :)

 

god the AWACS spamming on the cold war server is insane, but understandable.

[Reflected]

I finally got my first kills online! :)

 

2 F5E-s flew right ahead of me and got them with R600s, and I got an R3R kill (oh, and one super lame team kill, sorry :( )

 

My problem is still spotting the enemy. The visibility is not so good, and the glass is dirty.

 

2nd problem: keeping radar contacts tht are below me in the scan scope. The pop up when I bank the plane, but once I level out and dive towards them, they disappear.

 

3rd problem: if they don't disappear and I can lock them, I have very little idea where they are and I can rarely keep the lock on him until the missile hits.

 

4th problem: after a failed attack I pull up without burner (that would make me visible for everyone) but I run out of energy before I gain a safe amount of altitude.

 

Any advice please?

[MAD-MM]

With the Missions currently in Deep Black surrounding coverd with Clouds, its pointless to dogfight the F-5.

You are unable to spot the F5 against the Ground, Turn Fights in Ground Level is Pointless and spotting MIG-21 is far easier.

And the MIG Radar is more or less useless at Ground level against fast Movers.

So it is more luck then Skill to score a Kill.

[Pikey]

1 v 1 with neutral entry, use emmergency afterburner, take it to a high yoyo and you out energy a F5. Any Mig turning in a plane, or going low is going to fall victim to losing his greatest advantage. Tease a F5 into killing his and your acceleration will keep your G's higher.

[Reflected]

1 v 1 with neutral entry, use emmergency afterburner, take it to a high yoyo and you out energy a F5. Any Mig turning in a plane, or going low is going to fall victim to losing his greatest advantage. Tease a F5 into killing his and your acceleration will keep your G's higher.

 

Emergency afterburner? What is that? Like an after-afterburner? How do you engage it, and why should you? And why shouldn't you?

[MAD-MM]

Right next in front of your Throttel beside the Flare button, is a small switch for emergency Afterburner. Burn more Fuel but was rare used because the life Time of the Engine is going down.

But thats doesnt help when the F-5 decide they dont follow up and wait on the Ground where you cant see them.

[Reflected]

But if you engage any kind of afterburner when climbing away, you will be visible from 10 miles, and it will make you a nice fat target. You're still not faster than AIM-9s...

[GGTharos]

You're engaging it to sustain better turn/climbing ability, not to run away. If you DO use it to run away, make sure you time your escape window correctly and you will certainly fly yourself out of the heater's WEZ. It just all has to be done right.

[javelina1]

I tried all your advice in practice. Went online and shot my first enemy plane down with an R3R. I stayed high, and I felt relatively safe. I ventured down once, and I was duly shot down by an F5E that I didn't see at all.

 

My main problems were that the AWACS was spammed by players, so even the subtitles didn't help. Also, when I saw some enemy contacts on my radar in turns, I lost them as soon as I straightened out. Anyway, slowly, but getting there! :)

 

great job! agreed, need to fly high. But we can only do this on a cold war server. otherwise the BVR amen crowd will eat our lunch... :)