insane roll rate - totally unrealistic

[Dehuman]

I'm liking the new FM, bought back that feel the old one had but kept the relative performance of the previous. SAU recovery seems to be working again rather than being SAU rodeo.

Best of all the rudder no longer has that ridiculous yaw authority with minimal roll authority. I will miss those tight hammerheads though.

I might just be imagining this one but pitch stability feels better at high AOA too, I'm having an easier time riding the yellow.

[BadHabit]

I'm liking the new FM, bought back that feel the old one had but kept the relative performance of the previous. SAU recovery seems to be working again rather than being SAU rodeo.

Best of all the rudder no longer has that ridiculous yaw authority with minimal roll authority. I will miss those tight hammerheads though.

I might just be imagining this one but pitch stability feels better at high AOA too, I'm having an easier time riding the yellow.

 

This has nothing to do with the FM in 1.2 or previous patches. However this may be right to the numbers it feels totally wrong flight. Nothing natural about how an ac is flying.

 

After the latest patch there is some roll inertia. I like the way it is now, seems reasonable to me, tt rolls really fast (a bit faster than the F5). I haven't tried it with bombs and things yet (On the F5 the roll rate decreases sharply with stuff hanging on the wings).

 

The inertia is visible at low roll rates, as you increase the roll rate arcade mode is on. Fly with SAU stab on and see what inertia is. I can fly and roll any aircraft here in the sim or other sims and the Mig-21 is rolling like there is no other axis that combines the roll movement it moves like the rudder is not there. And easy should not be a word at birds like the this.

[lemoen]

This has nothing to do with the FM in 1.2 or previous patches. However this may be right to the numbers it feels totally wrong flight. Nothing natural about how an ac is flying.

 

 

 

The inertia is visible at low roll rates, as you increase the roll rate arcade mode is on. Fly with SAU stab on and see what inertia is. I can fly and roll any aircraft here in the sim or other sims and the Mig-21 is rolling like there is no other axis that combines the roll movement it moves like the rudder is not there. And easy should not be a word at birds like the this.

 

That's not true. Rolling causes yaw and pitch too. With the SAU on it feels like you're flying through treacle. Don't think that's right. By all accounts the real Mig-21 (and F-5) rolls very very quickly. The 21 hardly has any weight in its wings, you shouldn't expect it to roll slowly and have masses of roll inertia.

[BadHabit]

Maybe at high stick deflections yes. Not with so small inputs and definitely not at all speeds and AoA, NO WAY. Imagine a real aircraft being so sensitive what a disaster would be in a tight and stressful fight. And one more thing M3 hasn't justified that a delta wing cannot go past 15-16 AoA. Go past 15-16 and AoA will jump to 20 for a stall. Sorry but the improvements form on patch to another are very faint.

[Wizard_03]

Its not too sensitive for me, and if I keep rolling it as hard as I can with full deflection after about 1.5 rotations it starts coupling pitch with the roll. If I keep going it eventually departs because of it. I don't know what your talking about.

[zaelu]

I use linear input controls because I have a FFB stick and for me the aircraft is extremely nervous and twitchy.

 

Now... I guess I can adapt to this but I don't find it satisfying. Any player can modify the input curves and gain super powers in multiplayer.

 

IMHO Controls should be tuned with linear inputs when setting the FM and then the curves to allow only adding delay not gaining speed in moving the control surfaces.

 

I am sure you can't move the controls in real life as fast as I can do it in sim.

[iLOVEwindmills]

I use linear input controls because I have a FFB stick and for me the aircraft is extremely nervous and twitchy.

 

Now... I guess I can adapt to this but I don't find it satisfying. Any player can modify the input curves and gain super powers in multiplayer.

 

IMHO Controls should be tuned with linear inputs when setting the FM and then the curves to allow only adding delay not gaining speed in moving the control surfaces.

 

I am sure you can't move the controls in real life as fast as I can do it in sim.

 

Linear input leads to nervous and twitchy flying? Yes, that's what it does and that's why you can change it. Its a natural consequence of the sticks most people are using (and the limited accuracy of your arm movements I guess), not too mention the amount of different sticks and customizations that exist. Obviously there needs to be a way to tune this.

 

Gain speed moving the control surfaces? Superpowers in multiplayer by adding curves?

 

I'm starting to feel you don't know what curves do or why they are there?

[Wizard_03]

The manual actually calls for curves to be set and gives recommended value ranges, which is where mine are set. (TMW) like I said no nervous/twitchy problems with stick or rudders. I can very precisely set pitch yaw and roll at nearly all speeds.

 

With the exception of slower speeds, say around less then 320 IAS. In which case it tends to lag on responsiveness and requires a bit more input, but that is perfectly reasonable and normal.

[zaelu]

As you probably should know the FFB joysticks are "forced" to use linear input because how they work. I think Mi-8 module has something that allows adding curves to FFB response but I am not sure.

 

But that is just one thing. The second thing is that the controls shouldn't move faster than they can in real life. There is a inertia and friction and hydraulic forces that don't allow them to move faster than a given rate.

 

Because of the sim being limited in depth of simulation (we can simulate so much) having exaggerated input speeds can have undesirable effects, from bad flying to cheating.

 

Saying the manual recommends using curves is like saying it recommends no to cheat or to have 2 hands and 2 legs. Sometimes you can't have those so you need to take into consideration that.

Edited April 25, 2017 by zaelu

[iLOVEwindmills]

As you probably should know the FFB joysticks are "forced" to use linear input because how they work. I think Mi-8 module has something that allows adding curves to FFB response but I am not sure.

 

But that is just one thing. The second thing is that the controls shouldn't move faster than they can in real life. There is a inertia and friction and hydraulic forces that don't allow them to move faster than a given rate.

 

Because of the sim being limited in depth of simulation (we can simulate so much) having exaggerated input speeds can have undesirable effects, from bad flying to cheating.

 

Saying the manual recommends using curves is like saying it recommends no to cheat or to have 2 hands and 2 legs. Sometimes you can't have those so you need to take into consideration that.

 

How does a FFB stick prevent you from using curves? And how fast is the control response from a real 21 compared to this, is this how you feel it should be or do you have actual numbers? Also I never heard of a 'delay' on rolling, not even on WW2 machines.

[Pocket Sized]

I still don't understand how curves = cheating.

 

They make the stick more precise towards the center and less precise near the stops. There are real aircraft with control systems that do exactly that!

 

Also, if you watch the stick and control surfaces in game, you'll see that they don't move instantly. Even if they did move instantly, I kind of doubt that it would even be noticeable from a multiplayer standpoint.

[zaelu]

How does a FFB stick prevent you from using curves? And how fast is the control response from a real 21 compared to this, is this how you feel it should be or do you have actual numbers? Also I never heard of a 'delay' on rolling, not even on WW2 machines.

 

 

There is a "feed-back" loop from the ffb engines that have also an input curve that remains linear and is not being affected by the curve you set in the game. It's independent. So if you set up your curves so 50% move of your stick in one direction means only 25% in game and you want to trim with buttons... if you command "25%" trim and expect the stick to deflect by its ffb engines 50% you will be wrong because the engines will only move the stick to 25% which means... maybe 12,5% or less (depending on how the curve looks). Also the rest of ffb inputs (shakes tensions etc) will be off and out of sync.

 

 

Now as I said... I can deal with this by training (never underestimate the power of repetition) but this also means that someone could exacerbate the curves response (for a normal joystick) and have ultra fast controls with little penalty from FM because the plane does respond faster and faster without any limit I think.

 

I don't know the numbers of how fast the controls should move freely from one side to the other but it seems to me that you can do it really fast now.

 

I will try to make a short recording.

 

I still don't understand how curves = cheating.

 

They make the stick more precise towards the center and less precise near the stops. There are real aircraft with control systems that do exactly that!

 

Also, if you watch the stick and control surfaces in game, you'll see that they don't move instantly. Even if they did move instantly, I kind of doubt that it would even be noticeable from a multiplayer standpoint.

 

If you reverse the curves you will have extra fast response at the start but less precise.

 

 

---

 

something like this. first part is at high speed then lower speed

 

 

Is this possible in real life?

 

I did had low FPS because the image is downsized when recording and my system is on its knees almost at 4K anyway... not sure what influence really has but if any... also can't be good.

Edited April 25, 2017 by zaelu

[Kamov52]

After the patches the mig21 is no longer landbar for me. After the touchdown, it jumps high and the landing gear is gone! My stick is the Saitek X52 and I use the curves of Chucks Mig21 guide. In the past she flew better.:(

[Wizard1393]

..exacerbate the curves response (for a normal joystick) and have ultra fast controls...

 

How is having no curve giving you "ultra fast controls"?

 

No matter what curve you have, the hydraulics / control surfaces won't move faster or slower.

 

What is true though is that with a curve, you have to deflect your stick more to reach a certain control surface deflection in game.

 

In my honest opinion, it's not going to give anyone any "superpowers" no matter what curve is used, linear or otherwise.

[zaelu]

look in the above movie

[Pocket Sized]

Negative curves would make it impossible to accurately control your lift vector in a dogfight if you're using a standard desktop stick.

[humptydumpty]

This is a digital thing , nothing is physically connected to the mig on your desktop except digital signals and these things only see a signal passed. Curves are needed but how much might be difficult to say as it may respond differently in attitude.

 

For helis no curves for me.

[Verde]

I find new flight model not perfect, but certainly better than the old one, where plane feeled like barge. I use little curve on all planes, including Mig-21 and i have extended warthog stick.

[Wizard_03]

Is the joystick used less precise then average?

 

How many possible values can you have on either axis? Because I remember I could do something similar with my old ch stick. Because it was older cheaper and had way less potential values for each axis.

 

Ergo a small stick movement from me in RL will result in large stick movement in game.

 

Edit* well whatever the case the devs are gonna go ahead and listen to you and lower roll rate again

Edited April 26, 2017 by Wizard_03

[Buzzles]

Anyone else spotted the patchnotes that Rudel posted for the next beta 1.5.6 version?

 

1.5.6.xxxxx Update 3 - TBD

• Decreased roll rate.
  

[Schmidtfire]

What? From what I know, the current roll rate is a bit lower than the real life MiG21. Would not make any sense to get it even further from the real thing...

[Paradox]

I find it perfectly controllable I don't know what you guys are doing.

 

With zero curves as well

 

If this is the real roll rate of the aircraft let it stay that way

[Wizard_03]

Yeah I think the devs need to make some definitive statement on the FM. The FM shouldn't be something that is up for debate, if they need to tweak it fine. But it would be nice to be given some clarity as to how the real aircraft performs instead of having to sift through everyone's opinion (qualified or not) on the forums I find it very frustrating sometimes.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Wizard_03

[LCYCowboy]

I don't mind the roll behaviour at the moment (although it does seem to lack inertia), but would like the pitch "nodding" looked at.

[Fishbed-21]

I find it perfectly controllable I don't know what you guys are doing.

 

With zero curves as well

 

If this is the real roll rate of the aircraft let it stay that way

 

How it's possible? With mine at 0 curvature is definetly too sensitive, too unstable.:joystick:

And the roll rate is insane