Av8 dogfigher..

[ESAc_matador]

Taking into account her lack of speed, and roll rate... the AV8 is a he'll of a dogfigher, much better than it seems.

 

The clever use of the nozzles, doing veefing, gives you a an adventage... i easily shot down, mig21, mig23, and mi29... With IR missiles... you can deny them the proper LOS, and you get into their guts so fast....

 

It reminds me the description of Sharkey Ward, in the book... love this plane. Do not under estimate her capqbilities....

 

Also avoiding R 27 is quite competent. Just don't bleed all your energy over using the nozzles.

 

I just need to try vs human M2000, F5, and so on.

[Schmidtfire]

Another great tool is the flir image displayed on HUD, so much easier to find other aircrafts.

Spotting finally works :thumbup:

[Hook47]

I would agree, the Harrier is no fighter, but underestimating her could be lethal in PVP. The Harrier has respective energy management and acceleration, and a solid thrust to weight ratio for a non after burning aircraft. It's handling is predictible and for an attack bird it can turn decently. Being able to carrier four heaters also puts it in a good place versus aircraft like the Mirage that, in spite of being a fighter, cannot carry more, or the F-5, which has half the firepower. I'd easily rate the Harrier as the attack aircraft most able to protect itself.

 

Viffing is also very intriguing, although I don't think I've found the best way to apply it yet. I do think it would be useful in a guns fight, but in a heater missile fight I'm not so sure it has a place.

 

I will have to try the FLIR for aircraft spotting! Cool idea!

 

Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk

[Sephyrius]

Don't forget to test (or in my case, even bind to hotas) the flare salvo button for an 'Angel of Death' (AC-130) level of flare deployment. Looks glorious.

[Hook47]

The harriers flare system is glorious. I love how it dispenses and its a pretty effective looking pattern!

 

Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk

[ESAc_matador]

I would agree, the Harrier is no fighter, but underestimating her could be lethal in PVP. The Harrier has respective energy management and acceleration, and a solid thrust to weight ratio for a non after burning aircraft. It's handling is predictible and for an attack bird it can turn decently. Being able to carrier four heaters also puts it in a good place versus aircraft like the Mirage that, in spite of being a fighter, cannot carry more, or the F-5, which has half the firepower. I'd easily rate the Harrier as the attack aircraft most able to protect itself.

 

Viffing is also very intriguing, although I don't think I've found the best way to apply it yet. I do think it would be useful in a guns fight, but in a heater missile fight I'm not so sure it has a place.

 

I will have to try the FLIR for aircraft spotting! Cool idea!

 

Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk

 

In IR enviroment, the viffing is very good to deny/evade IR missiles... at least what I have tryied... I am aplying about 40-60 degrees for 3 o 4 seconds...

 

You feel how the angle between you and the missile/aircraft is augmented, when he is on your six, or when you want a quick firing solution, you can risk for higher nozel values, and you ll have an opportunity firing solution.

 

Excelent for scissors, too (guns enviroment)

[Sephyrius]

Haven't tried it in actual PvP yet, but the 99' nozzle angle + speed brake seems like an excellent way to force an overshoot. And, if feeling particularly frisky, maybe even add gear down and VSTOL flaps on top of it.

[GGTharos]

All this means is that the missiles have since modeling issue, or you happened to be inside rmin.

Viffing should have next to zero effectiveness against an all aspect seeker.

The acceleration it provides is quite low compared to last ditch maneuver methods as well, so it's effectiveness against a missiles maneuvering should be next to nothing as well.

[ESAc_matador]

Let say, you are turning....and the guy behind you is in pure pursuit.... you use the nozzles, and he goes to delayed pursuit... if you are in the limits, o the IR envelope, you can force the miss. If you put yourselves into a normal position inside the envelope, you are killed.... i am also using flares, by the way.

[fargo007]

I managed a maneuver kill on a Mig 29 on skill level high. Put him into the ocean.

 

The other engagement was a contest of who would run out of fuel first. A turning stalemate.

 

I'd like to see this teased out some more.

[Frostie]

You can shoot AI fighters down with a P51, no viffing needed.

Viffing as a last ditch maneuver to maybe force an overshoot is effective but bleeding your airspeed is not ideal.

Sea Harrier pilots were notoriously some of the best dogfighters around in mock engagements and as far as i'm aware they didn't Viff.

[ESAc_matador]

I have read the opposite... they do viff, in any case, ... i think, AV8, is a serious contender for close dogfight. Let's wait to see some videos and that stufr.

[Jace11]

I seem to remember reading something many years ago about how the unique exhaust placement on the harrier could be used by the pilot to greatly reduce his IR signature by positioning the aircraft to hide them under the wings so a plane with IRST or IR missile would be severely hindered, perhaps even unable to lock.

 

Doubt it translates to DCS though.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Its not the same evading an 80's Aim-9L that an actual M or X.

[GGTharos]

Once your opponent is wielding an all-aspect missile, that's a move that doesn't pay.

 

Any AIM-9L+ and P4+ will lock onto the aircraft itself.

 

I seem to remember reading something many years ago about how the unique exhaust placement on the harrier could be used by the pilot to greatly reduce his IR signature by positioning the aircraft to hide them under the wings so a plane with IRST or IR missile would be severely hindered, perhaps even unable to lock.

 

Doubt it translates to DCS though.

[Hook47]

After more reading and a few hours testing, my personal conclusion is Viffing is pretty much a last ditch low speed gunfight tactic, simply because it requires neat total loss of airspeed and thus makes you a sitting duck for a heater. I read some things that stayed Viffing was why the Harrier was successful in the Falklands War, and others that say Viffing wasn't even confirmed to have been used, and that training was the reason for the Naval Arms success. I tend to believe the latter.

 

Aside from Viffing, I've found the Harrier has decent handling in a dog fight, and the 4 AIM 9s can be a threat to many aircraft meaning to do the Harrier harm. It's not a fighter, but it's certainly not helpless either. I'm glad we got a striker that is so versatile

 

Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk

[GGTharos]

The harrier's success in the Falklands is down to the Argentine aircraft not having the fuel to fight. They literally did not have a drop of fuel to spare: One aircraft that did get into a turning fight ran out of fuel before it could get back to its airfield ... the pilot was lost.

 

Edit: That's not to say that the Harrier would have 'lost' otherwise, just that the Falklands aren't an example of the Harrier's dog-fighting ability.

Edited December 4, 2017 by GGTharos

[*Rage*]

I love the harrier. For an attack aircraft its has reasonable dogfight abilities but it is not a dogfighter. Fighting the AI is one thing and a seasoned PVPer another.

[Sandman1330]

The best Harrier A-A kill ever used a lot of Viffing...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GGTharos]

Ok, you win the argument and the internets :D

[Bullitthead]

I haven't done much dogfighting in the Harrier yet but found slight VIFFing is helpful when almost in firing position but needing a bit more angle and in scissors maneuvers. The amount of required VIFF is very low though, I'd say 10-20 degrees. I have managed to shoot down AI Su27 and Mig 21 set to excellent difficulty, AI only armed with IR missiles and/or guns though. Haven't tried PvP yet but with the insane AI flight models, I was happy. Definitely don't underestimate the Harrier.

[Hummingbird]

Someone did a little testing:

9h49EcOR_-M

 

Seems like the Harrier is quite nimble, esp. with use of viffing.

 

The only question then is how accurate the flight model is, but if it matches these charts (Note: these are without any viffing at all), then I'd say we can call the results realistic:

Edited December 6, 2017 by Hummingbird

[Hummingbird]

Just realized that the chart I just posted is for a version with smaller less aerodynamic LERX and a less powerful engine that the ingame AV-8B NA, and thus the ingame model should actually be able to supercede the performance on that chart by a noticable margin.

 

I wonder if RAZBAM have performance charts for the newer model ingame?

[Emmy]

Nicely presented...

[Kapsu]

So far i have done any dogfighting with and against harrier two times and with that little experience i have got so far i think light weight harrier is a nasty plane to fight against even in F-15. In my opinion VIFFing + AIM-9 is what makes it so dangerous in dogfight but without VIFFing or at guns only it's not that great and with energy tactics it's quite easy to defeat. But at slow speed turning fight light weight A-10 might be only jet that can challenge harrier. (haven't tested them all so i can't say for sure)

 

Here's a simple video i made showing some fights from our DACT session against F-5, A-10 and F-15.