polish AF discussion..

[szymon81]

i will keep it alive (for a little longer..)

 

bimbac, as a grippen fan you would be interested in this? :D

 

or perhaps you have this book already?

i have heard very good things about the aerofax series of books.

in fact i am thinking of ordering a few on the internet, not sure where the best place to get them is? any suggestions? (of course it would have to be shipped to australia).

[Bimbac]

I have similar book directly from SAAB, which was given to me at the end of my training. The problem is that these books are based on facts from late 1990's, in the best case from early 2000's, thus not very accurate, since there were some quite important changes in systems, avionics and users.

 

If you want some up-to-date information, you need to search the web. Believe me, there is a lot of good websites with plenty of information about Gripen, like the one I posted earlier.

 

Anyway, do you have any information about Polish Vipers? I mean some more technical stuff? :)

 

By the way, I am tempted by an idea to create a thread here about real air forces and combat tactics, but so far there is no point because it's not much use in Lock On yet. Maybe after Black Shark release...;)

[Pilotasso]

^^^^^^ "Faktobokem Om Gripen"?

 

So do I. Swedish version LOL

[peterj]

I have similar book directly from SAAB, which was given to me at the end of my training. The problem is that these books are based on facts from late 1990's, in the best case from early 2000's, thus not very accurate, since there were some quite important changes in systems, avionics and users.

With the data link changes for NATO and export, ie Link 16 compability. Is this document still a representative description the data link features?

 

 

The Gripen is fitted with the "Tactical Information Datalink System (TIDLS)", which gives the fighter four high-bandwidth, two-way datalinks with a range of about 500 kilometers (310 miles) and very high resistance to jamming. The datalinks allow the Gripen to engage in combat using another aircraft's sensors or from targeting data provided by other defense systems. Data acquired from remote sources is fused and displayed on the fighter's main MFD. The link is fully operational when the aircraft is on the ground, allowing a pilot on standby to have high situational awareness of the battle environment.

 

One Gripen can provide radar sensing for four of its colleagues, allowing a single fighter to track a target, while the others use the data for a stealthy attack. TIDLS also permits multiple fighters to quickly and accurately lock onto a target's track through triangulation from several radars; or allow one fighter to jam a target while another tracks it; or allow multiple fighters to use different radar frequencies collaboratively to "burn through" jamming transmissions. TIDLS also gives the Gripen transparent access to the SAAB-Ericsson 340B Erieye "mini-AWACs" aircraft, as well as the overall ground command and control system.

[Bimbac]

This is true, but applies only to Swedish Gripens.

[MBot]

With the data link changes for NATO and export, ie Link 16 compability. Is this document still a representative description the data link features?

 

 

The Gripen is fitted with the "Tactical Information Datalink System (TIDLS)", which gives the fighter four high-bandwidth, two-way datalinks with a range of about 500 kilometers (310 miles) and very high resistance to jamming. The datalinks allow the Gripen to engage in combat using another aircraft's sensors or from targeting data provided by other defense systems. Data acquired from remote sources is fused and displayed on the fighter's main MFD. The link is fully operational when the aircraft is on the ground, allowing a pilot on standby to have high situational awareness of the battle environment.

 

One Gripen can provide radar sensing for four of its colleagues, allowing a single fighter to track a target, while the others use the data for a stealthy attack. TIDLS also permits multiple fighters to quickly and accurately lock onto a target's track through triangulation from several radars; or allow one fighter to jam a target while another tracks it; or allow multiple fighters to use different radar frequencies collaboratively to "burn through" jamming transmissions. TIDLS also gives the Gripen transparent access to the SAAB-Ericsson 340B Erieye "mini-AWACs" aircraft, as well as the overall ground command and control system.

 

 

That is very impressive, especialy for a plane that went operational over 10 years ago. Those Swedes sure are some smart folks :)

[Bimbac]

Yes, they are ;)

 

By the way our Gripens have similar features, among others excellent ECCM capability. Don't try to jam the Gripen, it's worthless :)

[nscode]

I don't think I would go with the Sweeds with ECCM. To get ECCM that you know works, and not only have a theory should work, you need to actually test it against as wide range of ECM you can get.. and I don't think they have that kind of "resources" available ;)

[Bimbac]

It's not about different jamming types and emmiters, it's about the tactics and methods how to defeat it.

 

For example, if you have two aircraft with HOJ capability and datalink, they can triangulate position of the jammer with pinpoint accuracy. So it doesn't matter if you are jamming the radar, since it can work in passive mode as well. That's the reason why many air forces conduct a very thorough research how to jam the datalink and communications, because without these you are really blind.

 

Most modern jammers can even create false targets, so you cannot distinguish between real and false. They can even record the comms of your wingman and play it back on your frequency, which can create a perfect mess. Modern air combat is like playing cat and mouse - you turn on your radar, it's being jammed, you turn it off, jammer turns off as well. He who can do more nasty things to the other, usually wins.

 

By the way, never underestimate the Sweedes. They have more knowledge than you could possibly imagine ;)

[szymon81]

that is very impressive.

i guess what nscode is referring to is that compared to US or russian weapons manufacturers, the swedes have a more limmited real-combat experience..

however i understand that saab cooperated with BAe systems on some of these electronics too, and BAe have experience with their systems being used on RAF etc aircraft in several recent conflicts..

 

mm..this is a very interesting thread. gripen is definitely climbing my 'favourite aircraft' ladder hehe. (MiG 21 and 29 still my favourites though!)

[Pilotasso]

For example, if you have two aircraft with HOJ capability and datalink, they can triangulate position of the jammer with pinpoint accuracy.

 

Most jammers dont do just try to hide the range to them but to also give a false angular position. Your triangulations may end up being inconclusive if each networked aircraft says the jammer is at a different angular displacement wich does not correlate with what the others see.

[Bimbac]

Please try to read the WHOLE post before you write something. I have written that Gripen's radar can work in passive mode, which means that if the aircraft is jamming, you can see the signal source on your scope, but since you cannot determine the range (you would need to know the specific impulse power output of the jammer, which can change rapidly), two aircraft working in tandem and approaching from TWO different vectors can triangulate the jammer's position quite accurately.

 

By the way, jammer can produce several false informations, for example, azimuth, distance, altitude. But if you are just listening, you would know precisely the position (both azimuth and altitude, but not the distance) of the signal source. This is the principle of passive detection - you have two or more (more is better) receivers in specific pattern, and by triangulation, you can pinpoint the location of any active emmiter. And remember, you can fool the radar, but not in passive mode.

 

However, this works in opposite way too, so if you have two or more jammers available, you can do the same to all active systems, but not the passive ones.

[Skopro_PL]

This thread is going way off topic..

[Bimbac]

I agree, but there is nobody here to to talk about the original topic, so we have to spend our time with something else... ;)

 

I would like to know some technical details about Polish Vipers. Could you help me with that?

[Skopro_PL]

well what do u want to know about them??

probably some of the more comprehensive info u can get on the Polaf vipers..also check out the fourm thread that goes along with that,some good responses on questions pertaining to physical changes(antennas,etc)..

 

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article15.html

 

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-6738-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-60.html

 

there are alos some fourms of the actual 3elt, but they're all in Polish and need to be translated..alot of work that i dont have time for..

[tflash]

I know this thread has long been hijacked into a Gripen thread, but forgive me to come back to the original topic: Polish AF.

 

I guess the most important system on the Polish F-16 will be the Goodrich DB-110 airborne reconnaissance system, a very sophisticated recce pod. Anyone some details about it?

[Kusch]

http://www.oss.goodrich.com/DB110RAPTOR.shtml

http://www.goodrich.com/Feature/SingleStory/0,1285,18,00.html

 

 

 

[tflash]

Wow! I didn't realize it was the same as the UK Raptor pod for the Tornado. A VERY strong asset for the Polish AF indeed! It must be fantastic to operate such a sensor.

 

IMHO a good recce pod with real-time cockpit display would be a very interesting addition to Lockon.

[Bimbac]

I know this thread has long been hijacked into a Gripen thread, but forgive me to come back to the original topic: Polish AF.

 

Hi,

 

well that's how it looks like but if you take a look at the first page of this thread, you will see that there were some questions about Gripen, so I just wanted to contribute, that's all. But I agree that it got a little out of hand...:huh:

 

Looks to me that Poland got her hands on some serious weaponry :thumbup: I would be delighted if these Vipers ever show up at our airbase...

 

By the way, nice pictures! Everybody here, keep up the good work! :pilotfly:

[MBot]

well that's how it looks like but if you take a look at the first page of this thread, you will see that there were some questions about Gripen, so I just wanted to contribute, that's all. But I agree that it got a little out of hand...:huh:

 

If nobody talks about the original subject of the topic, I see no problem in discussing other things too. This forum would be incredible boring if all threads would stick on topic :)

[Kusch]

Poland tradition, greeting bread and salt :D

 

http://www.31blot.com/galeria.php?galeria=aktual/2007/02-03

 

[peterj]

Looks good.

Are those markings temporary?

[Kusch]

Yes.

[Bimbac]

Are there any Polish pilots already trained to fly F-16? By the way, those F-16Ds look incredible. I guess they are not planned to be used merely as trainers...;)

[Sundowner.pl]

Currently there are 3 certified Viper jocks here in Poland, the rest is finishing training in US, and will arrive shortly. We also have few USAF pilots who participate in F-16 system introduction program.