Foviated Rendering and DCS

[NastyFruit]

Hi,

 

I am hoping someone with more knowledge on the subject could give me/us some information.

If a headset is released with eye-tracking and enabled the use of NVidia's foviated rendering technology (Not sure if team red has something similar), would that then be automatically supported in DCS (And other games) or would each game/sim need some internal adjustments to be made to support it? Or is it not possible to say yet?

 

Just wondering, and would like more info on this, to help me decide how quickly I would click the buy button on said hypothetical headset. (If support needs to be added/coded into the sim/game, I would probably first wait and see if it is to happen)

 

Thanks

Edited January 8, 2018 by NastyFruit
Typo

[lemoen]

The game will probably have to implement the foveated rendering calls. Unsure how this will play with Vulkan. I was wondering about foveated rendering WITHOUT eye tracking, considering that the image is out of focus towards the edges anyway. Maybe some performance could be gained.

[Jabbers_]

From my experience, Eagle Dynamics doesn't implement card manufacture API's so things like NVidia Game Works, wont be used. They would probably have to roll their own implementation so that all customers (NVidia and ATI users) could experience the same level of performance.

[Gearbox]

The game will probably have to implement the foveated rendering calls. Unsure how this will play with Vulkan. I was wondering about foveated rendering WITHOUT eye tracking, considering that the image is out of focus towards the edges anyway. Maybe some performance could be gained.

 

It has to know where you're looking so it can render that area in high fidelity.

[lemoen]

It has to know where you're looking so it can render that area in high fidelity.

 

Yeah, I was thinking the center of the fov.

[Gearbox]

Yeah, I was thinking the center of the fov.

 

I guess it could work, your neck would just get an extra workout. It would require learning some unnatural movements of your eyes/neck combo, but so does using TrackIR and most people figure that out pretty quickly.

[Delta99]

I guess it could work, your neck would just get an extra workout. It would require learning some unnatural movements of your eyes/neck combo, but so does using TrackIR and most people figure that out pretty quickly.

 

No, you don't have to do a thing or change the way you use VR at the moment. The eye tracker knows where your eyes are looking. That is the whole idea of Foviated rendering.

 

Also, I would bet the the game engine doesn't have to support it.

[Gearbox]

No, you don't have to do a thing or change the way you use VR at the moment. The eye tracker knows where your eyes are looking. That is the whole idea of Foviated rendering.

 

Also, I would bet the the game engine doesn't have to support it.

 

Yes, but what I think he was saying is without eye tracking you could still render the middle of the FOV in high quality and leave the edges at lower quality and still get an FPS boost, but with more head movement needed to look around.

[wormeaten]

ED and DCS is in basic professional software for military use. DCS World is just expansion as civilian version. So primary task is developing professional version and after implementation of new technologies it is transfer to civilian version too. Something like VBS and ArmA serial.

 

As I see lot of potential and benefit of implementing eye tracking in professional version especially to create better pro simulators, But for this we will need at least a year or even more.

I believe ED will start working on it soon anyway no matter on our opinion.

[hannibal]

just hit the buy button

[Mr_sukebe]

My understanding is that the Nvidia drivers already including the capability to conduct foveated rendering. That to me implies that:

- Probably requires little or no effort from ED

- Just needs for someone to release appropriate eye tracking capability into a VR headset. Pimax have already stated that they'll do this, though we've no idea when.

[lemoen]

I asked the question about foveated rendering without eyetracking purely because the rift and vive's images are already out of focus away from the centre of the lenses. So applying some foveated rendering as if the user is just looking straight ahead may not have a big impact on visuals but it may well have a big impact on performance.

[Jabbers_]

My understanding is that the Nvidia drivers already including the capability to conduct foveated rendering. That to me implies that:

- Probably requires little or no effort from ED

- Just needs for someone to release appropriate eye tracking capability into a VR headset. Pimax have already stated that they'll do this, though we've no idea when.

 

Except ED has stated they will not implement manufacture specific technology because it gives an disadvantage to those without it. Foveated rendering is a NVidia VRWorks technology and API.

[Mr_sukebe]

Except ED has stated they will not implement manufacture specific technology because it gives an disadvantage to those without it. Foveated rendering is a NVidia VRWorks technology and API.

 

Not sure about the relevance. If it's purely by drivers, don't think that ED has any say on the matter.

 

 

BTW> Thanks for the uploaded video ref VR settings. Went through that again yesterday. I'd previously missed about the impact of MSAA, so that really helped my framerate. Nice one!

Edited January 9, 2018 by Mr_sukebe

[Jabbers_]

Not sure about the relevance. If it's purely by drivers, don't think that ED has any say on the matter.

 

 

BTW> Thanks for the uploaded video ref VR settings. Went through that again yesterday. I'd previously missed about the impact of MSAA, so that really helped my framerate. Nice one!

 

Glad to hear it helped! As for it being at a driver level, it would still need to be activated via the game, and via the API.

[Mr_sukebe]

Glad to hear it helped! As for it being at a driver level, it would still need to be activated via the game, and via the API.

 

I would expect it to be driven by the VR software, i.e. as a result of eye tracking being enabled. Hence why I'm not sure it would even need to talk to the application.

[blkspade]

It should be noted that foveated rendering, is a generic rendering concept that is not solely owned by Nvidia.

[Jabbers_]

I would expect it to be driven by the VR software, i.e. as a result of eye tracking being enabled. Hence why I'm not sure it would even need to talk to the application.

 

Right, but it requires the engine to specifically render the scene in different resolutions, not just something generally left up to VR software.

[Mr_sukebe]

Right, but it requires the engine to specifically render the scene in different resolutions, not just something generally left up to VR software.

 

Unsure about why it would need to render in different resolutions. Sure, for the monitor, but for VR (e.g. CV1 or Vive), the resolution is fixed, as is the preferred refresh rate.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't know for sure that the game engine wouldn't need to be involved, but logically, I'm currently unaware of a reason for it to need to do anything.

 

As for the drivers being Nvidia specific, I only commented on that as that's what I'd read. Whilst I'm currently an Nvidia user, can't say that I give a stuff who's currently top. What I'd like is for both AMD and Nvidia to both help to get this technology out there ASAP.

[hansangb]

Isn't that the whole point of foveated rendering? That's how our eyes work. Narrow field of view where everything is crystal clear and everything else is not. Our brains are just tricked into thinking we're seeing clearly throughout our field of view.

[blkspade]

Right, but it requires the engine to specifically render the scene in different resolutions, not just something generally left up to VR software.

 

Everything hitting the headset is governed by the VR API. In games that have a single executable for non-vr and VR output, the normal resolution setting does nothing in VR, as the VR API is setting the render limits. The Rift API for example already supports the option of Adaptive Pixel Density that will adjust the rendered resolution according to available performance headroom. So its not exactly far fetched that foveated rendering could be handled API and/or driver side.

[blkspade]

https://uploadvr.com/gdc-2017-fove-amd-take-aim-improving-vr-rendering/

 

https://videocardz.com/61557/rajas-super-secret-cigar-stash

 

The hardware/software is roughly in place on the GPU end from both companies. The VR headsets to take advantage of it don't exist yet. We need higher res panels and higher FOV headsets, and of course built-in eye tracking.

Edited January 10, 2018 by blkspade

[Jabbers_]

Everything hitting the headset is governed by the VR API. In games that have a single executable for non-vr and VR output, the normal resolution setting does nothing in VR, as the VR API is setting the render limits. The Rift API for example already supports the option of Adaptive Pixel Density that will adjust the rendered resolution according to available performance headroom. So its not exactly far fetched that foveated rendering could be handled API and/or driver side.

 

Correct and as a goal they have already said this would be a core technology... in 5 years as an estimate. What I'm getting at is in the interim, the current technology requires render targets of different resolutions blended into the resolution of the HMD. I am fully aware of how it could work, My points in particular are related to the OP's discussion, regarding NVidia's technology and that ED would probably roll their own implementation in order to not benefit 1 card manufacture over another, as they have always done.

[Gearbox]

Unsure about why it would need to render in different resolutions. Sure, for the monitor, but for VR (e.g. CV1 or Vive), the resolution is fixed, as is the preferred refresh rate.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't know for sure that the game engine wouldn't need to be involved, but logically, I'm currently unaware of a reason for it to need to do anything.

 

As for the drivers being Nvidia specific, I only commented on that as that's what I'd read. Whilst I'm currently an Nvidia user, can't say that I give a stuff who's currently top. What I'd like is for both AMD and Nvidia to both help to get this technology out there ASAP.

 

By rendering the area outside the fovea in less detail you are able to boost the frame rate of the overall scene substantially with higher detail visible in the foveal area, which is the only part your brain really cares about.

[dburne]

https://www.roadtovr.com/a-pocket-guide-to-foveated-rendering-from-smi/