AIM-54 Effect on MP (now that we can test it in the sim)

[Swordsman422]

Agreed. Survival should be incentivized at some level, but at the same time I'm wary of it becoming an EVE Online situation where a player can end the day behind where they started it. That's going to be a tightrope walk.

[GGTharos]

If you can't figure out from what I wrote, that a customer base who spent 100$'s of dollars on other aircraft might be concerned that they can't compete against the AIM-54 only found on one particular aircraft in multiplayer, which you are basically forced to use in the first place because of the lack of single-player content, I don't have anything to say to you either. This wouldn't be as big of an issue if there was a lot of single-player content to fall back on, that is the relevance.

'

So you're saying that the guy who paid $100 for his F-14 should have it nerfed because you 'can't compete with it', otherwise MP shouldn't exist?

 

I suggest you try one of the following:

 

1) Put up your own server where you do whatever.

2) Join ACG or some other period-type server where only certain aircraft are operated (eg. F-5 vs MiG-21)

[GGTharos]

You are weird. What exactly do you prove when you set out to lose?

 

Maybe I'm weird, but I want to give away my Tomcat's advantages. I want to fight a MiG on their terms. I want to do all this, because I want to prove that the Tomcat is not some unbeatable pox upon multiplayer.

 

Hell, a good MiG pilot should, barring the odd incident or two where they get killed by a freak shot, return from engagements with Tomcats. Granted, they should be using every trick in the book to engage, but a smart pilot will realize they're out of options, low on fuel, and it's time to go home and keep their life.

[FSKRipper]

There will be people with hundreds of dollars worth of modules who will get shot down IVO of their airbase and never get to an engagement period due to the AIM-54.

 

I don't know what your definition of "fun" is, but that doesn't sound like it to me.

 

I'm such a fanatic who spend hundreds of dollars and owns each single DCS module (some of which I have flown no more then 5 minutes, others several hundred hours). If I will be shot down after T/O by an AIM-54 it will be my own mistake or the mistake of my team but has nothing to do with the sim.

Introduce balance and I will be the first "all buying idiot" who is done with DCS since it would be not more than all these MMO wargames. RL has no balance and life isn't fair. If you think otherwise you haven't understood the philosophy of war and weapon research.

 

And yeah, as we talking about a sim... Fun and simulation doesn't always exclude each other but a real sim is "played" serious, sober and like some people with SID's and STARS for airports without near to real ATC. I'm not one of these hardcore simmers but everyone can do on his server what he want's to. If you don't like the Phoenix, exclude it on your own server but leave others the fun to drink and fly or use unfair, realistic weapon systems. This means that for some people what you call fun is silly unrealistic stuff and for other people hardcore simming is dry and boring. Normally I would go by my rule live and let live... but since you don't want to leave it to server operators and influence the Devs to modify their product for balancing issues my opinion is simply that you are wrong in your game choice.

Edited January 24, 2018 by FSKRipper

[pepin1234]

The Aim-54 and the radar should be implemented with the same issues from IRL. Was not relieble... I hope ED manage this situation as we expected and as was in IRL.

[BeastyBaiter]

I really don't see the AIM-54 being shockingly good. On paper, the R-27ET can smack targets from 150km away or something stupid. Don't think I've ever seen one land a hit from more than maybe 30km though and that's head on. The same will apply to the AIM-54. Yeah, you can launch it from 100km, but in the minute or two it takes to reach the target, too much will happen for it to have any chance of even reaching it, nevermind actually coming close enough to damage or kill the target. Throw in a low G limit and this is simply a non-issue.

 

As for balance in MP, that's partially up to mission builders. Developers need to include the tools to make a balanced mission, but we already have that. So really it's all about the mission builders. As things stand right this instant, it is entirely possible to give an airbase 100 AIM-9M, 100 AIM-7M, 12 AIM-120C and 2 AIM-54 if you so desire. You can even have them be replenished by flying a chopper to the airbase and dropping sling loads from a supply depot if you want. I've only rarely seen such systems used in DCS, but they are possible and it has been done occasionally. But as said, I don't think the AIM-54 is going to be a MP balancing problem in the standard 104th everything vs everything with unrestricted weapons mission.

 

If looking at something resembling an historical mission, then it could be an issue. I suspect MiG-21 vs F-14 with or without AIM-54's is going to be rather one sided in most cases. But that's more of an argument in favor of adding the MiG-23 and 25 to the game. :smilewink:

[GGTharos]

The Aim-54 and the radar should be implemented with the same issues from IRL. Was not relieble... I hope ED manage this situation as we expected and as was in IRL.

 

 

I don't see lack of reliability implemented in the stuff you like to fly ...

[*Rage*]

People saying PVP multiplayer is not about balance really dont know what they're talking about. Probably because theyre not competitive PVPers.

 

Competitive MP is ALL about (relative) balance. If you dont believe that just go read the relevant threads for the most popular MP servers and events. The number one recurring issue is always balance, whether red, blue or lime green. The Aim54 should not be banned from MP. It is a defining feature of the F14. Parity of weapon systems is the easiest way of achieving balance but there are other ways. But pretending balance is not an issue is just naive, and wrong. At least for that segment of the community.

 

Of course in SP or PVE, balance is irrelevant.

Edited January 24, 2018 by ///Rage

[pepin1234]

I don't see lack of reliability implemented in the stuff you like to fly ...

 

DCS simulate the reality, not what said the manufacturer or not what they tried to make possible.

[turkeydriver]

The Aim-54 and the radar should be implemented with the same issues from IRL. Was not relieble... I hope ED manage this situation as we expected and as was in IRL.

 

Nope- you've read media drama over a few instances.....Good job judging that like the expert armchair you are though. I look forward to you grinding your teeth after a silent shot in the face from 50 miles out.

[pepin1234]

Nope- you've read media drama over a few instances.....Good job judging that like the expert armchair you are though. I look forward to you grinding your teeth after a silent shot in the face from 50 miles out.

 

Enough fantasy. ACE Combat 7 is the place to do that. Good luck

[Gearbox]

No upgrades really happened to them, or gone further than prototypes, the only thing that might have happened to the whole active fleet(probably using inactive fleet spare parts) is probably the ability to overhaul the tomcat.

this is how thing goes on on Iranian army: they release some bad ass prototype but they don't have the budget to mass produce it, or sometimes it's just some propaganda sh** and are no where near the reality ( like the F-14AM or F-313 ).

And by the way I've seen plenty of the cockpit photos and videos of f-14 and found to modernized cockpit, you can find them in my tomcat footage thread.

 

That's disappointing, I thought I saw an article years ago about the Russians helping them build new avionics suites and redoing all the ancient wiring.

[Bad Idea Hat]

You are weird. What exactly do you prove when you set out to lose?

 

I set out to give them a fight and teach them to win.

[superhavoc]

I'm honestly not expecting much out of the Phoenix, I'll probably mostly use them to force someone to go defensive until I close in for a Sparrow shot.

 

I love how people are already complaining about the Phoenix when the final product isn't even in the sim yet. The amount of salt from both sides after release will be staggering (and wildly entertaining).

Edited January 25, 2018 by superhavoc

[Bad Idea Hat]

I'm honestly not expecting much out of the Phoenix, I'll probably mostly use them to force someone to go defensive until I close in for a Sparrow shot.

 

I love how people are already complaining about the Phoenix when the final product isn't even in the sim yet. The amount of salt from both sides after release will be staggering (and wildly entertaining).

 

That's my basic strategy, with an occasional "lob six phoenixes for giggles" sortie.

[superhavoc]

"lob six phoenixes for giggles"

 

Savage :lol:

[GGTharos]

Are you saying because someone buys the F-14 for 100$ they should have some profound inherit superiority on the battlefield? Because that's exactly what it sounds like.

 

Why shouldn't he? It's an F-14 with standard armament.

 

If someone wants to put up a MiG-21 against it, good luck.

[GGTharos]

You brought up the price of modules :)

[GGTharos]

You're the one slinging insults here; I responded exactly to that thing you wrote 24 hours ago.

 

So your argument is because I wrote something 24 hours ago, completely unrelated to what you just wrote 30 minutes ago and was referencing, it's relevant?

 

Nice misdirection. The principal tactic of making people look stupid by diverting attention from the addressed subject.

 

Still haven't answered the question.

[pepin1234]

I agree. Let’s respect each other.

[Bad Idea Hat]

Savage :lol:

 

Can you just see the look on six pilots' faces as, almost simultaneously, all of them get a radar warning and go defensive.

 

Honestly, if you're in one Tomcat and you have 3-6 friendly pilots working in conjunction with you, it's a valid DCS tactic. Real life, not so much (someone's going to have difficult questions about why you just shot $6 million downrange). Make the opponents go defensive while your guys move in for the kill, playing mother hen the whole time.

[IASGATG]

Just to clarify things for everyone. The AIM-54 is basically going to add a maximum guaranteed kill range of about 10nmi on top of the AIM-120.

 

So for reference, the AIM-120 has a Max pK 0.9 shot of around 5-6nmi, the AIM-54 will be around 15-20. THe AIM-7 obviously has about a 2-3nmi pK 0.9 shot in the game at the moment. A high phoenix payload will get you more kills than mixing in sparrows, I assure you.

[Bad Idea Hat]

Just to clarify things for everyone. The AIM-54 is basically going to add a maximum guaranteed kill range of about 10nmi on top of the AIM-120.

 

So for reference, the AIM-120 has a Max pK 0.9 shot of around 5-6nmi, the AIM-54 will be around 15-20. THe AIM-7 obviously has about a 2-3nmi pK 0.9 shot in the game at the moment. A high phoenix payload will get you more kills than mixing in sparrows, I assure you.

 

The only concern is if you get beamed by a low altitude opponent, then you're carrying a bunch of half ton cylinders. Once again, the mother hen scenario is going to give the Tomcat an advantage as a shepherd fighter for other jets. Let the kids protect low and to the side, the Tomcat calls out targets and launches to force defensive.

[GGTharos]

You're carrying a bunch of missiles that are forcing him into a defensive notch. Keep up the pressure.

[Swordsman422]

Keep in the weeds? All these people crying about realism, but don't even understand air battles fought exclusively at 100 feet and under (the primary tactic in DCS multiplayer) aren't a good example of real life. Has it happened? Yes. Is it a valid tactic? Yes. Is modern air warfare centered around this tactic? Uh no.

 

 

From Multiservice Tactical Brevity Code:

 

Weeds - Indicates that fixed-wing aircraft are operating below 2,000 ft (610 m) AGL.

 

 

Uh, yeah, I'm not talking about getting grass stains on your wingtips. Positioning your aircraft so that the enemy radar has to look down at you and sort you from the clutter is absolutely a valid real-world tactic. The AWG-9 looking down at a target 10,000 ft below superimposed against the terrain had serious issues picking it up in pulse search. If this same target was also in the beam, this was a huge problem for a RIO to solve unless he knew exactly where to look. This is part of the reason why the F-14s intercepting the MiG-23s in 1989 descended below the Floggers' altitude. They were giving their radar the best possible picture looking up against the sky while the MiG-23's had to sort the Tomcats from the waves below.

 

Going back a bit earlier than F-14s, but in Vietnam, it was pretty common for MiGs with GCI assistance to come blasting out of valleys to bounce strike packages. High speed, low altitude air defense penetration (that means GCI, SAM, and fighter radars) was pretty much bread-and-butter before the advent of low observable platforms.

 

Absolutely using the terrain's effects on the enemy radar is real. Anything that can create a headache for the other guy is going to be put to use.