AIM-54 Effect on MP (now that we can test it in the sim)

[lemoen]

I find these discussions interesting. Some are saying no weaponry should be restricted at all and some are calling for some restrictions (for balance). One one hand I agree, don't nerf airframes too much. They were developed to be better than something, so let them be.

 

One the other hand, this could lead to ridiculous scenarios. i.e. say your opponents have to group together to take out a single F-14 because it has a way longer reach than them and can spam the airspace with AIM54 (or the F15 with AIM120C). I know a bunch of you are saying, well that's the way it is in real life. Here's a question for you

 

Would you, or would you not, play in the same scenario, but the entire enemy airspace is protected by multiple SA-10 sites and each SA-10 is protected by multiple Sa-15 / 2S6. So no matter what you do, you will get locked and launched on as soon as you go fence in and ARMs will get shot down by the SA-15. We have to balance MP in some way, else it gets angry-making.

[dimitrischal]

I find these discussions interesting. Some are saying no weaponry should be restricted at all and some are calling for some restrictions (for balance). One one hand I agree, don't nerf airframes too much. They were developed to be better than something, so let them be.

 

One the other hand, this could lead to ridiculous scenarios. i.e. say your opponents have to group together to take out a single F-14 because it has a way longer reach than them and can spam the airspace with AIM54 (or the F15 with AIM120C). I know a bunch of you are saying, well that's the way it is in real life. Here's a question for you

 

Would you, or would you not, play in the same scenario, but the entire enemy airspace is protected by multiple SA-10 sites and each SA-10 is protected by multiple Sa-15 / 2S6. So no matter what you do, you will get locked and launched on as soon as you go fence in and ARMs will get shot down by the SA-15. We have to balance MP in some way, else it gets angry-making.

 

Regarding your example you can defeat the SAM sites with saturation attacks and pop up profiles which is how it’s done irl.

Do you expect to defeat an SA-10 site some other way?

Should somebody “make” it some other way so someone feels warm and fuzzy about himself and not get upset because a poorly executed attack didn’t work?

Similarly should we restrict AIM54s because someone wants to join in a server and bag an F14 easily? If he has tactics and knows his stuff he will or else...

[Swordsman422]

Real life, the F-14 only ever did a six-off in testing scenarios. On ALL occasions US Navy F-14s fired the AIM-54 in combat (4 shots, no kills), the missiles were fired singly.

 

Typical F-14 CAP loads were 2/2/2 or 2/3/2 Phoenix, Sparrow, and Sidewinder early on. Later it became 1/2/2 or sometimes 1/1/2 depending on the situation. After the advent of LANTIRN, and especially after 1998, it was rather unusual for the LTS pod to be downloaded, so you'd see an F-14 with 1 Phoenix and 1 Sparrow in the tunnel, and then a Sparrow and 2 Winders on the glove rails, with the LTS still there on the right side. The LANTIRN actually did the TCS job better than the TCS. Sharper imagery and multiple modes.

 

Far as I'm aware, the F-14 wasn't ever shot from a carrier toting 6 Phoenix, and certainly couldn't come back in this configuration. if I were wanting to be as realistic as possible in DCS MP, I'd go with one of the above loadouts and not even consider the 6-all Phoenix load as potentially carrying 3-tons of useless metal with nothing to back it up.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Swordsman422

[Angel101]

I´m a PvE player most of the time in battles that needs team coordination between modules. And that no sense to balance MP by nerfing a weapon or a airframe is not the way to go, you are going to nerf also the PvE part of the "game".

 

If you want balance in PvP, get a better mission desing, or avoid X´s servers, is as easy as this.

[lemoen]

“Better mission design” is just another way to say don’t make it too hard for either team. If only we had a word for this idea ...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bad Idea Hat]

You're carrying a bunch of missiles that are forcing him into a defensive notch. Keep up the pressure.

 

I'm talking about someone coming from a canyon, low and out of the radar coverage. Flying at 20,000 feet, that's the first thing I can think of being a danger to the Tomcat.

 

It sounds weird for a fighter to need an escort, but if teams want to utilize an F-14's radar, the smart move will be to give it an escort to keep it in the fight as long as possible.

[BlackLion213]

I'm talking about someone coming from a canyon, low and out of the radar coverage. Flying at 20,000 feet, that's the first thing I can think of being a danger to the Tomcat.

 

It sounds weird for a fighter to need an escort, but if teams want to utilize an F-14's radar, the smart move will be to give it an escort to keep it in the fight as long as possible.

 

So you mean flying as a section? A pair of Tomcats (like any fighter) is way more effective and survivable than a single aircraft. :)

 

-Nick

[GGTharos]

Why are you flying at 20000'? Fly higher and look down into the canyon from an appropriate angle. There are reasonably simple counter-tactics to ambush CAP/Sweeps.

 

F-14's have a data-link, you could have one guy looking down canyons and the other guy silently ambushing the ambushers.

 

I'm talking about someone coming from a canyon, low and out of the radar coverage. Flying at 20,000 feet, that's the first thing I can think of being a danger to the Tomcat.

 

It sounds weird for a fighter to need an escort, but if teams want to utilize an F-14's radar, the smart move will be to give it an escort to keep it in the fight as long as possible.

[myHelljumper]

F-14's have a data-link, you could have one guy looking down canyons and the other guy silently ambushing the ambushers.

 

Ambush-ception ?

[RaceFuel85]

Wow..TIL fighters don't work as well when they're alone.

 

I think..and this is just a theory, that F-14's might be more effective if they fly a 2 ship section..or maybe even a flight of 2 sections at different altitudes and bearings.

[Swordsman422]

No reason to walk away from your wingman and operate as a single. Stick with loose deuce until the shooting starts: 1.5-2 miles abeam at same altitude. If someone sneaks behind or beneath one of you, the other can cover in a snap.

[probad]

to think this thread will only be a small taste of the turdtornado that will be once the module actually comes out

[Bad Idea Hat]

Why are you flying at 20000'? Fly higher and look down into the canyon from an appropriate angle. There are reasonably simple counter-tactics to ambush CAP/Sweeps.

 

F-14's have a data-link, you could have one guy looking down canyons and the other guy silently ambushing the ambushers.

 

That was just a sample altitude. I don't care how high you're flying.

I'm also expecting flying single in the Tomcat with a backseater because, from experience with the Viggen, I seem to be on servers as the only Viggen pilot a lot.

 

Is there anything else you'd like to be pedantic about today? You seem to do that a lot.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Bad Idea Hat

[Bad Idea Hat]

So you mean flying as a section? A pair of Tomcats (like any fighter) is way more effective and survivable than a single aircraft. :)

 

-Nick

 

I kind of get the impression that I'm going to be alone on some servers, and am going to have to team up with non-Tomcat pilots.

[Gearbox]

Real life, the F-14 only ever did a six-off in testing scenarios. On ALL occasions US Navy F-14s fired the AIM-54 in combat (4 shots, no kills), the missiles were fired singly.

 

Typical F-14 CAP loads were 2/2/2 or 2/3/2 Phoenix, Sparrow, and Sidewinder early on. Later it became 1/2/2 or sometimes 1/1/2 depending on the situation. After the advent of LANTIRN, and especially after 1998, it was rather unusual for the LTS pod to be downloaded, so you'd see an F-14 with 1 Phoenix and 1 Sparrow in the tunnel, and then a Sparrow and 2 Winders on the glove rails, with the LTS still there on the right side. The LANTIRN actually did the TCS job better than the TCS. Sharper imagery and multiple modes.

 

Far as I'm aware, the F-14 wasn't ever shot from a carrier toting 6 Phoenix, and certainly couldn't come back in this configuration. if I were wanting to be as realistic as possible in DCS MP, I'd go with one of the above loadouts and not even consider the 6-all Phoenix load as potentially carrying 3-tons of useless metal with nothing to back it up.

 

The under-wing position for the phoenix could hold a sidewinder in addition in case someone got close.

 

This doesn't have all the stats but the AIM-54 fared well in the Iran-Iraq war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Iranian_aerial_victories_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war

[Freeroamer]

How about we cut the OT?

[Swordsman422]

The under-wing position for the phoenix could hold a sidewinder in addition in case someone got close.

 

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Could, yes. You saw it all the time in attack loadouts with a Phoenix and Sidewinder on the left glove rail, but in the 6-all config the winders were normally left out. I don't think I've seen an F-14 with 6 phoenixes and anything else.

 

Phoenix performance in the Iran-Iraq war was probably even better than reported. The Iranian Revolutionary Guard liked to take credit for things they didn't do, like claiming they shot down Iraqi planes with SAM and AAA fire that F-14s actually got. I hope one day we'll know the real tally.

[pepin1234]

I´m a PvE player most of the time in battles that needs team coordination between modules. And that no sense to balance MP by nerfing a weapon or a airframe is not the way to go, you are going to nerf also the PvE part of the "game".

 

If you want balance in PvP, get a better mission desing, or avoid X´s servers, is as easy as this.

 

Nobody is nerfing anything... we are talking and interchange opinions. By the way I have seen you several times in russians aircraft threads specifically talking not so good about this kind of hardware or defending, for example F-15s...

[Gearbox]

Could, yes. You saw it all the time in attack loadouts with a Phoenix and Sidewinder on the left glove rail, but in the 6-all config the winders were normally left out. I don't think I've seen an F-14 with 6 phoenixes and anything else.

 

Phoenix performance in the Iran-Iraq war was probably even better than reported. The Iranian Revolutionary Guard liked to take credit for things they didn't do, like claiming they shot down Iraqi planes with SAM and AAA fire that F-14s actually got. I hope one day we'll know the real tally.

 

I found a photo of it but it could be from testing and evaluation. 190lbs x2 of sidewinders doesn't seem like a lot to add but 6 phoenixes is a lot of weight so I guess you'd leave them home if you didn't plan to use them, saves wear and tear on them from being carried around too I guess.

[SinusoidDelta]

Could, yes. You saw it all the time in attack loadouts with a Phoenix and Sidewinder on the left glove rail, but in the 6-all config the winders were normally left out. I don't think I've seen an F-14 with 6 phoenixes and anything else.

 

Phoenix performance in the Iran-Iraq war was probably even better than reported. The Iranian Revolutionary Guard liked to take credit for things they didn't do, like claiming they shot down Iraqi planes with SAM and AAA fire that F-14s actually got. I hope one day we'll know the real tally.

 

From the book Iranian F-14 Tomcats In Action:

 

We seldom loaded our Tomcats with six AIM-54s. I saw F-14s armed that way only twice in my career, and that was before the war with Iraq. In May 1978, I flew a Tomcat armed with six AIM-54s and I was surprised to see just how much of an impact these large and heavy missiles had on the speed range and manoeuvrability of the jet as a result of their weight and drag.

An F-14 loaded with six AIM-54s could not dog fight, and its landing speed was much higher closer to 2 kmh (normally 230 kmh or 144 mph), which posed a danger to both the aircraft and its crew.

Edited January 25, 2018 by SinusoidDelta

[NineLine]

Guys, please make sure you discuss this in a mature manner, prove me wrong and show me you can have a thread about missiles and not end up with a bunch of warnings, deleted posts and hurt feelings.

 

Also note the topic, this thread was created for testing the AIM-54's effect on and in the sim, try and keep it to the facts and on topic.

Edited January 26, 2018 by NineLine

[SinusoidDelta]

These threads do tend to get out of hand quickly. Back OT, we don’t know how the Phoenix will perform within DCS or how it will effect MP. We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it. :thumbup:

[Swordsman422]

Right. But meaningful, mature discussion like what most of us are having here about the aircraft and missile, their capabilities, load-outs, vulnerabilities, and tactics make for good speculation in the meantime, especially if Heatblur is aiming for maximum realism.

 

It'll be interesting to see the actual impact on MP.

[IASGATG]

Basically it'll wreck everything within about 15nmi pretty easily. This makes ER and slammer based platforms vulnerable from about twice the distance they're normally used to. Effective counters against a Phoenix armed opponent are chaff. Beyond this it's going to be very difficult. This doesn't take into account force multipliers like data link and AWACS.

[Boogieman]

^My thoughts exactly. Start practicing your notching technique now gents... ;-)