BiggestPig Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 I've studied soaring for months now. I have learnt, that in a sailplane you really have to use the rudder while turning. Otherwice your turns will be really "weird", as in RL and sims as well. Not so big thing in one engine civ planes, like cessna tought, but if you want to make it clean, you use it in cessna also. The guestion: (and we are talking about fighters) 1) In RL, do they use rudder as much (if any?) to make turns smooth? Is it needed at all, 'cause the aerodynamics aren't like civ planes? Doesn't fighters turn pretty smooth without rudder? 2) How about Lock On, do you use rudder? And we are talking about basic turns, not sidewind, formation flying etc... Just how you guys do "basic turns". [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] AMD 4000+ @ 3000 ::: ATI X1950 XTX @ 702/1044 ::: 2G Corsair TWINX2048 3500LLPRO @ 500 ::: 21" Sony ::: Saitek X45 & P8000 ::: TrackIR 4 Pro http://www.355stalkingtigers.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonTex Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Id have to say yea they use it and yes it is needed. Some jets like the F14 would get into a flat spin without it .... so yea its very important to have it and use it. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urze Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 1)yes, very often. 2)yes, very often. I could not imagine how you could land smooth without rudder a normal aircraft. Leftside Limited - ideas and solutions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiggestPig Posted March 13, 2007 Author Share Posted March 13, 2007 As I said, I wasn't talking about landing etc. I ment basic turns, like "45 deg bank to right", do people use rudder in basic turns. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] AMD 4000+ @ 3000 ::: ATI X1950 XTX @ 702/1044 ::: 2G Corsair TWINX2048 3500LLPRO @ 500 ::: 21" Sony ::: Saitek X45 & P8000 ::: TrackIR 4 Pro http://www.355stalkingtigers.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urze Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 As I said, I wasn't talking about landing etc. I ment basic turns, like "45 deg bank to right", do people use rudder in basic turns. I just wanted to add this extra info because a good landing starts always with a good aerodrome traffic circuit, and to do this you normaly fly turns.:smartass: And in RL (my experience:cessna 172 and 182) you always have to use rudder while you turn to stay at the same flightlevel. It doesn't matter if you turn 5° or 30°:) . Because if you bank you will lose lift. If you lose lift you hafe to compensate it with more tempo (to create more lift to the wings) and/or more lift/drag creating with the rudder while you turn.But this will again loose you more lift and this will effect in less horizontal speed ... and so on... So if you want to fly exact curves with same speed and altitude there is now way without using the rudder. Leftside Limited - ideas and solutions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S77th-konkussion Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Not large amounts for "basic turns", but it is still used extensively. Fine tuning the aiming of guns and reticles of various types. It wouldn't be there if it wasn't a neccessity. [sIGPIC]http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=43337&d=1287169113[/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiggestPig Posted March 13, 2007 Author Share Posted March 13, 2007 I'm not guestioning about it's necessity, 'cause it is a necessity. I use it as much as other controls, just wan't to know how YOU use it! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] AMD 4000+ @ 3000 ::: ATI X1950 XTX @ 702/1044 ::: 2G Corsair TWINX2048 3500LLPRO @ 500 ::: 21" Sony ::: Saitek X45 & P8000 ::: TrackIR 4 Pro http://www.355stalkingtigers.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urze Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 1)yes, very often. 2)yes, very often. :) just quoting myself. Leftside Limited - ideas and solutions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EscCtrl Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 I use it all the time - before I played FSX I never got why anyone would use it in a basic turn - then after a good session with that I instinctively used it in LOMAC and it helps smoothen your turns out a lot and makes flying exactly where you want to be a lot easier. If you haven't properly tried the MS flight simulator series give it a go because its a lot less easy to get away without things like rudder - this will help your technique with all flight sim games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jascha Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 And what about using rudder to make turns tighter? E.g. bank right + rudder right. Doesn't this work this way? With altitude loss of course. Or the additional loss of speed is not worth doing it? :huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Speed is life. You can trade speed for life too, sometimes. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britgliderpilot Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 In a modern fast jet, where adverse yaw doesn't tend to be so much of a problem, using rudder in turns is pretty much unnecessary. You just roll and pull - put the lift vector where it needs to be and yaw isn't a problem. It becomes more important when flying at higher angles of attack, vital when recovering from spins . . . . otherwise I don't use it much. Landing can be done just fine without it, as can air-refuelling - I hear a lot about using it to line up on strafing runs, but I've never really used it that way. Shrug. It's a big deal on sailplanes because of the magnitude of the adverse yaw effect, mainly due to the long span - I occasionally fly a 20m DG-505 that pretty much requires you to lead every turn with rudder. Flying the ASW-22 in Condor is even worse - there just isn't enough rudder authority to keep the yawstring straight, the wings are that long. But modern fighters . . . . thin wings, control surfaces deflecting into the airstream whichever way they go . . . adverse yaw isn't nearly so much of a problem in "normal" flight. Changes a bit in high-lift situations. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/britgliderpilot/BS2Britgliderpilot-1.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Groove Posted March 13, 2007 ED Team Share Posted March 13, 2007 I barely use rudders. Im making a 360 degree turn with an 45 degree angle without rudder staying +/- 10 meters withhin the altitude. I dont know it this is good or bad tbh :D Our Forum Rules: http://forums.eagle.ru/rules.php#en Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graywo1fg Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 :) just quoting myself. OMG me too :laugh::thumbsup: yea i use it alooooooOOOt In RL and sims Voice of Jester AI Death From Above =DFA= Squadron Discord - https://discord.gg/deathfromabove http://www.twitch.tv/graywo1f https://www.youtube.com/user/Lonewo1fg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobius1 Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 You use rudder in a turn to counter-act the adverse yaw caused by the deflection of the ailerons when you roll into or out of a turn. You do this to maintain coordinated flight, which is just a good thing overall. Any aircraft that uses ailerons to turn would have to use rudder in the direction of the turn to stay coordinated, and if the aircraft uses spoilers, opposite rudder would be needed. If you roll really fast, it would be caused by a large difference in the amount of lift each wing is producing because the aileron would increase angle of attack on the outside wing, which creates more lift, which causes the roll. This can be a big problem if that AOA exceeds the maximum AOA because only the outside wing would stall, which could very easily lead to a spin. This is why a coordinated turn is very important, which means rudder is important. Modern aircraft often use fly-by-wire for flight controls, which moves the rudder and ailerons together, which eliminates the need for the pilot to use the rudder pedals. I've heard that it's rare for an F-16 pilot has to use the rudder pedals in-flight. :pilotfly: Stupid thermals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anytime Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 How much rudder do the Virtual Thunderbirds use during a display? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldFrankHog Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Rudders are for taxi. Or if you lose an engine I guess :P Useless in normal flight, and confusing in formation, as rudder mouvements might be interpreted as order to change formation type...thats my 2 cents anyways. Join us today!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VMFA-Blaze Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 I always use the rudder pedals with what ever I'm flying at the time .... It certainly gives you more control of your A/C.. It helps in minor adjustmments of your course, and it gives you that added edge that you need in a turning dogfight .. In A2G its indispensable in keeping the piper on target .... It also helps in holding the lock while dodging incoming missiles.. And of course rudder adjustment of the nose is clearly an advantage when your in a "guns all fight" .... ~S~ Blaze intel Cor i7-6700K ASUS ROG MAX VIII Extreme G.Skill TridentZ Series 32 GB Samsung 850 Pro 1TB SATA II ASUS GTX 1080/DIRECTX 12 Windows 10 PRO Thrustmaster Warthog Oculus Rift VR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jascha Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Rudders are for taxi. :huh: Aren't you confusing rudders with nose wheel steering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldFrankHog Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Not really as they use the same controls ("rudder pedals" not "nose wheel steering pedals") :) Join us today!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jascha Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Of course. :) You use pedals in both cases but during taxi you control the nose wheel with it not the rudder itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuky Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 For a fast flying jets rudder is not neccessery at all to make any kind of turn. As thebridgepilot already said "You just roll and pull". If you think that if you bank you loose altitude? Well of course you do, unless you pull a bit on the stick. In prop planes where angine created lot of torque rudder use is required almost all of the time in any turn... for aiming when firing guns or landing or take of with or without crosswind. For jets, if you get slow you should use rudder because they do give more control in turns. Landing and take off don't need rudder unless there is some cross wind because unline props jets don't create torque effect. So pretty much like I said above, when I was flying IL-2 I used rudder quite extensively... in LockOn only in landings with crosswind, a bit when flying formation or when I get slow and need good control in turns. No longer active in DCS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuky Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Let me also add that in prop planes, the tail will slide quite a bit in high bank turns so rudder is required to compensate for this. Jets are designed differently therefore don't need rudder input in basic turns. No longer active in DCS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pho3nix Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 In hornets they deffinatley use rudder to preform coordinated max-rate rolls. Most military aircraft have control cross-coupling and mechanical or electronic yaw dampners. In Lockon when flying the Su-25 (as i guess this thread is about) i allways preform coordinated rolls as the yaw dampner does not compensate enough. It realy helps flying precisley with repeatable results when flying with rudder and TRIMING rudder. In an Su-25 vs. Su-25 BFM, the person flying balanced will ultimatley out turn and out accelerate the other person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ukr_Alex Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 In gunzo battles Im useless without rudders. Near stall speeds etc I need it to recover the bird.....and just use it a lot. :Core2Duo @ 435FSB x 7 3.05GHz : ATI x1900xtx: 2GB Patriot @ 435Mhz : WD 250Gb UATA: Seagate 320Gb SATA2: X-Fi Platinum: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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