F-117's being phased out starting as of now.

[Pilotasso]

First 6 units have been withdrawn from service this thursday.

 

This is somewhat surprising to me as the F-22 is only now entering service with JDAM's only, though expected to be cleared for more ordenance later I think its a bit premature move to retire the nighthawks right now.

 

This is also another indicator while not yet fully operational in what concerns AG capability, the Raptor is NOT a "no pound for air to ground" fighter as some people like to point out in the case of the Aussie Superhornet thread. Me thinks it will be better but not right now.

[EscCtrl]

Theres probably more reasoning to it then simply rushing into it - maybe their finances can't cover keeping a few nighthawks any longer and seeing as they aren't a necessity they are being dumped?

 

meh always a shame when a plane is phased out.

[Anytime]

Yep and with the JSF now going to cost in excess of 100M USD I think you'll see a lot of countries rethink their next purchases. The US has also identified a rather large gap:-

 

http://www.afa.org/media/reports/Bomber0207c.pdf

[pschelchshorn]

Besides, one B-2 can do what a whole squadron of F-117s can do.

[Pilotasso]

Yeah, but it costs as much as 5 F-22's but it doesnt have any means to do other things but droping bombs. ;)

[Aeroscout]

Ya, the F-22 and JSF can doo the same things a B2 can do and more. The nighthawks are just a drain for the gov't to pour money into if there not as necessarry.

[Pilotasso]

Besides outside the operational aspects it wouldnt make any sense to cut on 117's when the B-2's are so much expensive to build and operate.

[graywo1fg]

I say good ridence because it could only carry like 2 freakin bombs :P

[tflash]

As I understand it, the F-22's ALR-94 RF surveillance system is so precise it allows to enter highly defended enemy zones safely, just like the F-117 did. It even has better stand-off range since it delivers the JDAM from supercruise.

[TucksonSonny]

It is obvious that the stealth capability of the f-117 is already outstripped and the plane is becoming useless.

I heard that the F-117 had even better stealth capability than the f-22 in spite of the better computer modeling of the new frame. (Focus for the raptor was 50% on air superiority fighter and only 50% on stealth capability)

I wonder how much $£€ for one f-117 now :D

[D-Scythe]

I heard that the F-117 had even better stealth capability than the f-22 in spite of the better computer modeling of the new frame. (Focus for the raptor was 50% on air superiority fighter and only 50% on stealth capability)

I wonder how much $Ј€ for one f-117 now :D

 

Are you sure you "heard" it? Are you sure it wasn't *nothing*?

 

(Don't flip out, it's a Family Guy quote, but it expresses my opinion well)

[EscCtrl]

Yeah from what I read the F22 had a far lower radar presence despite its (in my opinion) less 'stealth like' look.

 

As for the air superiority-stealth trade off you referred to, its not as simple as one or the other and I'm sure they didn't simply decide 50% on each front as you mentioned.

[Aeroscout]

Ture, thats what i heard too. the F-22 is actually more stealthy than the 117.

[tflash]

What is for certain is that the F-117 concept was a heavily passive one.

 

It has no radar, to limit emissions, and thus relies on good weather conditions. It also adjusted its flightpad planning to judiciously evade radar threats.

 

The F-22 has a much more active concept: its ALR-94 EW sensor can range threat emmitters ( for airborne targets it does so conjointly with APG-77). This allows the aircraft to map threat ranges real time, which gives incredible SA, not only against airborne threats but also against ground-based ones.

 

The F-117 is still very reliant on previously gathered intelligence by other assets, and cannot sufficiently adapt to unforeseen situations. It can only hope there are no threat systems were there are supposed to be none.

 

The F-22 just actively scans for threats and can avoid them at its own choosing.

[Pilotasso]

F-117 could drop JDAM's just as the Raptor no matter the weather, so I wouldnt go that way to explain its withrawal.

[tflash]

Drop, for sure, but there is a difference. If the F-117 has the targeting data from beforehand (e.g. some CIA guy found out the coordinates of the Chinese embassy) or someone else, no problem, but if it has to identify the target itself to get precise GPS coordinates, it's FLIR could be hampered by clouds.

 

The F-22 can use its radar in that case. My wild guess is that the F-22 can do the same job the F-117 does better.

[D-Scythe]

F-117 could drop JDAM's just as the Raptor no matter the weather, so I wouldnt go that way to explain its withrawal.

 

I would. The Raptor can lob JDAMs cruising at Mach 1.8 and 50 000ft. The fact is, the F-22 can do the surgical strike mission better than the F-117 can, even if we omit all other factors and just focus on hitting a ground target. The Raptor is arguably a better bomber than the Nighthawk in terms of flexibility, speed, range/payload and survivability.

[Viper101]

wonder what will happen to the Nighthawk demo team

[Starlight]

What is for certain is that the F-117 concept was a heavily passive one.

 

It has no radar, to limit emissions, and thus relies on good weather conditions. It also adjusted its flightpad planning to judiciously evade radar threats.

 

The F-22 has a much more active concept: its ALR-94 EW sensor can range threat emmitters ( for airborne targets it does so conjointly with APG-77). This allows the aircraft to map threat ranges real time, which gives incredible SA, not only against airborne threats but also against ground-based ones.

 

The F-117 is still very reliant on previously gathered intelligence by other assets, and cannot sufficiently adapt to unforeseen situations. It can only hope there are no threat systems were there are supposed to be none.

 

The F-22 just actively scans for threats and can avoid them at its own choosing.

 

No. You can't takeoff without a well-planned flightplan, with any aircraft. Even Wild Weasel missions, which were in some cases "seek&destroy" type, were made with accurate flight plans. You can't build your own flight plan while airborne just evaluating some sensor reports. That is because a flight plan involves many things to be calculated, one of the main being fuel... and you can't change your plan of 200 miles just to avoid a new radar station, because you're likely to hit bingo before getting to the target.

 

 

Drop, for sure, but there is a difference. If the F-117 has the targeting data from beforehand (e.g. some CIA guy found out the coordinates of the Chinese embassy) or someone else, no problem, but if it has to identify the target itself to get precise GPS coordinates, it's FLIR could be hampered by clouds.

 

The F-22 can use its radar in that case. My wild guess is that the F-22 can do the same job the F-117 does better.

 

 

Most of JDAMs coordinates are pre-planned. They are inserted before the flight. That is because buildings (which were nighthawks' primary targets) are unlikely to flee away during the sortie...

Instead "dynamic" JDAM coordinates (i.e. those inserted in-flight) are used on CAS missions, but neither the nighthawk nor the raptor are CAS aircraft :)

 

I don't think the raptor is ever going to use the radar to designate ground targets for JDAMs. I'm not saying it's not possible, maybe it is, but IMHO is quite unlikely from the operational point of view

 

 

I would. The Raptor can lob JDAMs cruising at Mach 1.8 and 50 000ft. The fact is, the F-22 can do the surgical strike mission better than the F-117 can, even if we omit all other factors and just focus on hitting a ground target. The Raptor is arguably a better bomber than the Nighthawk in terms of flexibility, speed, range/payload and survivability.

 

 

Where did you get this report? I knew that bombs dropped above speed of sound used to bounce in unpredictable ways, that means also against the firing aircraft... Bombs carried or dropped at or even close to supersonic speed often malfunctioned. Given that JDAMs are basically GP bombs with GPS guidance attached, I see no reason why they should be better than previous bombs, from this point of view....

[tflash]

Where did you get this report? I knew that bombs dropped above speed of sound used to bounce in unpredictable ways, that means also against the firing aircraft... Bombs carried or dropped at or even close to supersonic speed often malfunctioned. Given that JDAMs are basically GP bombs with GPS guidance attached, I see no reason why they should be better than previous bombs, from this point of view....

 

 

One of the reasons might be that it has been tested by the USAF? It has been all over the defense press: F-22 dropping GBU-38 from supersonic speed.

 

 

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/F_22_Test_Team_Perform_Supersonic_High_Altitude_JDAM_Drop.html

[GGTharos]

But the test has been done, and a JDAM has been tossed some 40nm away by launching it high and supersonic.

[hitman]

Are you sure you "heard" it? Are you sure it wasn't *nothing*?

 

(Don't flip out, it's a Family Guy quote)

 

I HAVE that episode.

[Aeroscout]

I HAVE that episode.

What does that have to do with any thing.

 

heres how I think of it. The F-22 can do everything the 117, possibly better, depending on who you talk to, but has A2A capabilities. The F-22 is already being deployed and the 117 is ond. Instead of paying for the production and maintnance of the F-22 AND the maintnamce of the F-117s, you can cancel the F-117 and use the money thet you would have spent on them on the production of the F-22s.

 

Ultimataly, you have the same capabilities with more A2A fighters. (always usefull. :D)

[Pilotasso]

F-22 cannot drop LGB's as off yet, while it does somethings better than the 117 it still cant do everything the 117 can.

[hitman]

What does that have to do with any thing.

 

It has everything to do with it.