Virpil Throttle Advice please...

[Aooli]

Being a long time lurker on these forums and now, with the purchase of the Hornet, soon to be an active flier again, I am about to pre-order the Virpil Throttle. I do however have one question to put to the informed community - please can someone share their views on the pros and cons of the '5 position switch vs Mini stick' argument. I only want to make this throttle purchase once, and so i would like your views on why one version would 'outgun' the other.

Thanks in advance for helping me spend my money wisely.....

[lemoen]

There's no mini-stick version right now, unsure when / if they'll produce one. The current model is currently in limited production and they announced today that most pre-orders will ship after July 9

[Mr_sukebe]

Ref the benefits, well that's going to be dependant upon the user.

I use the analogue mini-stick on my CH Throttle for TDC slew on the A10C and Harrier. I found it MUCH easier to control the targeting pod using an analogue input than I do a set of digital buttons.

 

So I'll definitely be waiting for the mini-stick version.

[DayGlow]

Digital buttons are on/off switches. To use it as a slew you would have a single speed in 4 directions.

 

Analog stick means that you have finer control of the TDC. Push it a little for slow movement, more for faster slewing. Also you can vary the direction other than in the 4 digital directions.

 

A digital hat is fine for TDC control, but an analog stick style provides greater control

Edited June 4, 2018 by DayGlow

[Aooli]

Thank you for your responses. Based on the extra fidelity the mini joystick appears to bring I think I will wait it out for that version! Thank you all.....

[lemoen]

Digital buttons are on/off switches. To use it as a slew you would have a single speed in 4 directions.

 

Analog stick means that you have finer control of the TDC. Push it a little for slow movement, more for faster slewing. Also you can vary the direction other than in the 4 digital directions.

 

A digital hat is fine for TDC control, but an analog stick style provides greater control

 

 

 

You could program it to start slow and go faster the longer you hold it.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Weedwacker]

You could program it to start slow and go faster the longer you hold it.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

How do you do this? In LUA? Got any thread links on the subject?

[lemoen]

How do you do this? In LUA? Got any thread links on the subject?

 

 

Don't have it yet, haven't tried but I was under the impression the virpil software could do stuff like this?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[drmorrish]

Just ordered this throttle. Can a current owner tell me how the mode switch works? Does DCS see each mode and so each switch/encoder/rotary can have a separate mapping? Or do you have to use virpil software (their version of TM Target) to assign different modes? I asked virpil, they responded that each mode can be unique mappings but that windows would not allow enough buttons for all buttons in all 5 modes to be mapped. How are people slewing with this. Im using a TMW stick but no slew access there either. Virpil Stick, which I think has a slew is backordered. This product looks amazing and is supposed to be very well built. It's expensive though, and I'm perplexed about how a slew/ministick could have possibly been overlooked. Thanks!

[Sokol1_br]

A digital hat is fine for TDC control, but an analog stick style provides greater control

 

This in theory, because is need a good analog (mini) stick, and the actual models used in different throttles of different brands or are imprecise, have big mechanical deadzone, inability to return correctly to center position...

 

Reason why people invest ~$ 55 in mini-stick upgrade for Warthog throttle:

 

https://deltasimelectronics.com/

 

 

I suspect that VPC postpone this feature because don't find yet a proper/durable mini-stick for their throttle.

[Ranma13]

Does DCS see each mode and so each switch/encoder/rotary can have a separate mapping?

 

I don't have the throttle, but according to ralfidude's review, the mode switch changes between 5 profiles that you can set in Virpil's software. They're not exposed as buttons on the throttle, so you can't bind them directly within the sim, but it's unknown if you can use Virpil's configuration software to change them to bindable buttons.

 

Virpil Stick, which I think has a slew is backordered.

 

If you're referring to the T-50 stick, it doesn't have an analog slew either, it's a digital 4-way hat. The only sticks currently available that have analog slew sticks are the Saitek X56 and VKB MCG Pro.

 

It's expensive though, and I'm perplexed about how a slew/ministick could have possibly been overlooked.

 

It's loosely based on a Russian PAK-FA throttle, where the slew is on the stick, not the throttle. Many of us are waiting for Virpil to announce an analog slew version of the throttle before picking one up.

[Ayindi]

You can indeed use the "rotary mode switch" and expose the button presses to DCS, but it needs config from the VIRPIL software. As a default the Throttle has 49 DX buttons and you could set the 5 positions as buttons 50 - 54 for example. All will be bindable in DCS.

You could even map pos 1 - 3 as shift states and map poss 4 - 5 as two separate buttons.

 

One remark to the shift states: As far as I have experienced it you can "only" simulate a total of 64 DX buttons with this throttle. Having 49 DX buttons natively you can not have 5 x 49 DX buttons. You can map "a few functions" to shift states and assign a button.

Example:

Lets say in rotary on position 1 (default) pressing DX button 49 it will send DX button 49 to DCS. Additionally you can config the software that this buttons reacts on the shift state. That means on shift rotary position 2 it can be configured to send DX button 50 to DCS and so on. Howevery that means you can only add 15 additonal "virtual" buttons to the throttle. You cannot multiply all buttons by the number of shift states.

Hope its clear what I mean...

[Cyph3r]

 

One remark to the shift states: As far as I have experienced it you can "only" simulate a total of 64 DX buttons with this throttle. Having 49 DX buttons natively you can not have 5 x 49 DX buttons. You can map "a few functions" to shift states and assign a button.

 

Latest VPC software allows 96 virtual buttons :)

[some1]

please can someone share their views on the pros and cons of the '5 position switch vs Mini stick' argument.

 

5 pos switch has no pros over the ministick, unless you don't want to use it for cusor slew control but rather various other functions, like radio commands or something.

 

Analog slew allows you to better control the cursor. You can move cusor slowly with precision when you need for example to sort out two radar contacts close to each other or fine tune the bomb dropping point on the TGP. And at the same time you're able to quickly move the cursor from one screen edge to the other, or scan a huge area with TGP.

 

Basically all real airplanes with a radar/TPOD have a ministick cursor somewhere to control that.

[mdee]

Being a long time lurker on these forums and now, with the purchase of the Hornet, soon to be an active flier again, I am about to pre-order the Virpil Throttle. I do however have one question to put to the informed community - please can someone share their views on the pros and cons of the '5 position switch vs Mini stick' argument. I only want to make this throttle purchase once, and so i would like your views on why one version would 'outgun' the other.

Thanks in advance for helping me spend my money wisely.....

 

You don't need analog axis for TDC/radar cursor. 100% no. 5 way switch on VPC throttle works just as well (yes does travel at angles in more than 4 directions etc.), people massively exaggerate the need for analog axis to control the TDC (especially considering that it's unlikely that they have ever tried a decent one - the one on Warthog is really bad unless modded). You don't need 32-bit precision analog control for radar cursor or mavericks. All real airplanes do not have this kind of precise thumb sticks, far from it.

 

The only case where I think it would be nice to have is a separate control for certain rare weapons, Viggen has missiles which are controlled by a separate stick - even then if I'd feel hardcore I'd just buy another stick.

If you are after 100% realism of the controls, I'd recommend building 1:1 pit first then worry about analog ministick on the throttle (they are often force sensing devices anyway) ;)

 

If you fly space sims it's different story - I don't do space sims.

 

Bottom line. It's non-issue, functionally they are equal. it's stupidly overblown by the forums tho.

Edited August 29, 2018 by mdee

[some1]

people massively exaggerate the need for analog axis to control the TDC (especially considering that it's unlikely that they have ever tried a decent one

 

Did you?

I have two decent ones, the Cougar throttle (much better than stock Warthog or Saitek), and a Warthog modded with deltasimelectronics kit. It's night and day difference between them and using a regular 8-way hat to control TDC.

 

All real airplanes do not have this kind of precise thumb sticks, far from it.

 

Total BS. Just read the manuals. The original mod for the Warthog throttle actually used a real sensor removed from an airplane:

https://deltasimelectronics.com/products/force-sensor-uprade-kit

 

However, these real controls in A-10 or F/A-18 are force sensing, very expensive to obtain, if available at all, since they are not used in any consumer electronic gadgets (laptop trackpoints are similar but less precise and don't have the push function). The next best thing we can have is a thumb stick from a gamepad, and that's what was originally installed in the Cougar throttle or what's being used in the current mod sold by deltasimelectronics. If you have a spare gamepad, you can test for yourself, just map the cursor in DCS to one of the thumbsticks and play a bit. You'll feel a difference :)

 

Of course Virpil can find another solution for analog cursor. Maybe that's what takes them so long.

Edited August 29, 2018 by some1

[Ayindi]

Latest VPC software allows 96 virtual buttons :)

 

So does it mean I can map more than 64 DX buttons actually in game? That would be great! :joystick:

[Blatherman]

You don't need analog axis for TDC/radar cursor. 100% no. 5 way switch on VPC throttle works just as well (yes does travel at angles in more than 4 directions etc.), people massively exaggerate the need for analog axis to control the TDC (especially considering that it's unlikely that they have ever tried a decent one - the one on Warthog is really bad unless modded). You don't need 32-bit precision analog control for radar cursor or mavericks. All real airplanes do not have this kind of precise thumb sticks, far from it.

/QUOTE]

 

I've got 2200+ hours in B-1s, F-15Es, and F-16s. All have what we're terming a ministick here, although the internals aren't the same as the sticks available for the PC market.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Blatherman

[Sokol1_br]

So does it mean I can map more than 64 DX buttons actually in game? That would be great! :joystick:

 

 

In DCS you can map up to 128 DX buttons, in IL-2 Great Battles up to 64.

[mdee]

You don't need analog axis for TDC/radar cursor. 100% no. 5 way switch on VPC throttle works just as well (yes does travel at angles in more than 4 directions etc.), people massively exaggerate the need for analog axis to control the TDC (especially considering that it's unlikely that they have ever tried a decent one - the one on Warthog is really bad unless modded). You don't need 32-bit precision analog control for radar cursor or mavericks. All real airplanes do not have this kind of precise thumb sticks, far from it.

/QUOTE]

 

I've got 2200+ hours in B-1s, F-15Es, and F-16s. All have what we're terming a ministick here, although the internals aren't the same as the sticks available for the PC market.

 

Sure (I don't think they have 32-bit resolution, although F35 has probably mouse and keyboard in there ;) ). I am talking about functionality in sim here. The difference between analog sticks and decent 5 wway hat in sim ins really negligible when used to control very low resolution systems like radar. Analog is nice to have, but doesn't make the device "unusable" as some people claim.

 

People bringing "realistic" argument while sitting on a garden chair in front of IKEA desk too ;)

 

It's personal preference in the end.

Edited August 30, 2018 by mdee

[drmorrish]

How does the 5 way work for slewing in A10C. I was thinking about canceling my virpil throttle over the lack of slew. I am surprised it doesnt have one. If someone made a thottle of good construction with lots of switches and buttons that had a mouse/slew, that would be a winner. I'm actually shocked this doesn't exist. I'm not the biggest fan of the WT. Too specific to one airplane. Switches and mostly useless and there are no rotary encoders. Because it's the only one that relatively well made, we all have it.

[MustangSally]

How does the 5 way work for slewing in A10C. I was thinking about canceling my virpil throttle over the lack of slew. I am surprised it doesnt have one. If someone made a thottle of good construction with lots of switches and buttons that had a mouse/slew, that would be a winner. I'm actually shocked this doesn't exist. I'm not the biggest fan of the WT. Too specific to one airplane. Switches and mostly useless and there are no rotary encoders. Because it's the only one that relatively well made, we all have it.

 

Look up Ralfidude on youtube and check his throttle review. I really don't think you have anything to worry about.

[Sokol1_br]

How does the 5 way work for slewing in A10C.

 

Did you see the #15 post in the previous page?

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3609472&postcount=15

[some1]

 

Sure (I don't think they have 32-bit resolution, although F35 has probably mouse and keyboard in there ;) ). I am talking about functionality in sim here. The difference between analog sticks and decent 5 wway hat in sim ins really negligible when used to control very low resolution systems like radar. Analog is nice to have, but doesn't make the device "unusable" as some people claim.

 

People bringing "realistic" argument while sitting on a garden chair in front of IKEA desk too ;)

 

It's personal preference in the end.

 

No one here said that you need 32 bit resolution for a ministick, where did you get that from?

Even 2 bit resolution (four steps) would be enough to make a difference, the main point of a ministick is not a surgical precision, but the ability to switch between several cursor movement speeds. If a contact pops up on the opposite end of the radar screen to where your TDC is located at the moment, you don't have to spend several seconds waiting for the cursor to get there, just push the ministick further, the cursor will accelerate and reach the target much faster than with regular HAT. It's even more prominent when trying to control targeting pod, since it covers a wide field of view.

 

If it was just personal preference, it wouldn't be installed in every combat aircraft. But whatever, it seems to me that you really work hard to justify your purchase of 200+€ throttle without a ministick. At least you've convinced yourself, good for you :music_whistling:

 

It's not that a regular HAT is unusable, but in such expensive piece of hardware, there should be something better. Unless you don't plan to fly any modern aircraft.

Edited August 30, 2018 by some1

[MustangSally]

 

It's not that a regular HAT is unusable, but in such expensive piece of hardware, there should be something better. Unless you don't plan to fly any modern aircraft.

 

...do you own a Virpil Mongoos???