Marshal Stack Confusion

[Nealius]

The NATOPS doesn't mention anything specific about the Marshal Stacks, and I don't know where to look for answers. Right now I have two questions.

 

The Fighter Pilot Podcast mentioned that marshaling stacks are standard racetrack holding patterns about 5nm (IIRC) away from the ship, and that there can be multiple marshaling stacks operating simultaneously around the ship. Lex's YouTube video described the marshaling stack as being a circle 5nm in diameter, with the ship placed at the 3 o'clock position.

 

First point of confusion:

 

Why are there two different marshaling stacks being described? Did procedures change at some point between these two pilots' careers? Is one type used only for certain Cases and the other is used for other Cases (e.g. orbit stack for Case I and racetrack stack for Case II/III)?

 

Second point of confusion, regarding the orbit stack specifically:

 

If I'm understanding correctly, with the ship at the 3 o'clock position the only time your DME will read 5nm is when you are at the 9 o'clock position. Does this mean that aircraft can only enter the orbit stack at the 9 o'clock position?

 

I also understand the marshaling stacks should be flown at 250kts with standard rate (?) turns, 30° AoB. How should you exit the stack so that you arrive on initial at 3nm and accelerate from 250kts to 350kts without leaving your wingmen in the dust?

[Kirkey_badgers]

This covers the Marshal pattern and the priorities

[Shadoga]

@Kirkey: not helpful, since Nealius references this vid and seems to have watched it very closely.

 

...

 

Second point of confusion, regarding the orbit stack specifically:

 

If I'm understanding correctly, with the ship at the 3 o'clock position the only time your DME will read 5nm is when you are at the 9 o'clock position. Does this mean that aircraft can only enter the orbit stack at the 9 o'clock position?

 

I also understand the marshaling stacks should be flown at 250kts with standard rate (?) turns, 30° AoB. How should you exit the stack so that you arrive on initial at 3nm and accelerate from 250kts to 350kts without leaving your wingmen in the dust?

 

It is my understanding that you can enter the Case1 stack overhead the boat at your assigned level from any position by flying towards the TACAN and prior to reaching it by aligning with either BRC or the arc in any other senseful way.

To leave the stack for the Initial, you fly a racetrack pattern by extending the outbound course (opposite BRC) until abeam or past abeam the 3NM-Initial.

While outbound past abeam the boat you start your descent to 800ft and accelerate to 350kt.

The inbound turn towards the Initial then requires more bank/G.

I don't know if it is common for formations larger than 2-ships to open up the outbound course by 10-30° in order to facilitate the following inbound turn for the formation, requiring less bank/G.

It might also be possible to delay the speed increase to after passing the Initial or to being established inbound Initial/BRC... - for the run-in it might suffice to be at 350-400kt when reaching the boat overhead/abeam position.

SME advice required here.

 

My follow-on question would be regarding vertical separation in the stack:

Lex states lowest Case1 stack altitude as 1500ft and 1000ft steps for separation upwards.

Since I know holdings only from civ. IFR procedures being at straight 1000ft levels (A6000-7000-8000 or FL200-210-220):

is it correct that Case1 carrier stack is flown at 1500-2500-3500...?

[muehlema]

Not sure about this "Mashal stack"

 

"Marshal" would be for me roughly 20 miles from the mother, angels 20. Then we got "Platform" would be angels 5, about 10 miles from mother. At the "Gate" 1200ft, 8 miles

[Spiceman]

From the CV NATOPS...

 

Case I

 

The jet and turboprop port holding pattern is a left-hand pattern tangent to the BRC or expected BRC with the ship in the 3-o’clock position and a maximum diameter of 5 nm. Flights shall be established at their assigned port holding pattern altitude 10 nm prior to entering the pattern. Entry shall be tangential with wings level (can be entered from any direction). Minimum altitude assignment shall be 2,000 feet MSL. A minimum of 1,000 feet vertical separation between holding altitudes shall be maintained. The squadron/ unit recovery order and altitude assignment shall be as promulgated by ship/air wing doctrine. All aircraft shall maintain the prescribed separation and landing order in the port holding pattern and throughout the descent.

 

Departure from the port holding pattern for break entry shall be accomplished aft of the ship’s beam. Descent to the break from the port holding pattern is commenced by the lowest aircraft or flight in time to meet the ramp time. This descent should be planned so as to arrive at the initial (3 miles astern, 800 feet) wings level, paralleling the BRC.

 

The flight leader shall either execute a normal break or spin for all or a portion of his flight, depending upon the number of aircraft in the landing pattern. A spin should normally be initiated at the bow. The spin pattern shall be flown at 1,200 feet within 3 nm of the ship. A maximum of six aircraft shall be in the landing pattern at one time. This number may be modified by the air officer. No aircraft shall break more than 4 miles ahead of the ship. Pilots must exercise caution to avoid departing aircraft and aircraft in the starboard holding pattern. Should a Delta be given after commencing descent from the port holding pattern, but prior to entering the landing pattern, aircraft shall climb or descend as required and enter the spin pattern (1,200 feet) unless specifically directed otherwise. Aircraft in the landing pattern shall continue to maintain proper interval, flying the landing pattern at 600 feet until otherwise directed. Flights directed to spin or reenter the port holding pattern shall climb only on the upwind or crosswind leg ahead of the ship’s beam. Aircraft reentering the break from the spin pattern have priority over aircraft entering from the port holding pattern.

 

Case III

 

The primary TACAN marshal fix is the 180_ radial relative to the expected final bearing (if BRC is due north, you’d be on the 170 FROM/350 TO radial) at a distance of 1 mile for every 1,000 feet of altitude plus 15 miles (So 6000 feet would be 21 miles). The holding pattern is a left-hand, 6-minute racetrack pattern. The inbound leg shall pass over the holding fix. In no case will the base altitude be lower than 6,000 feet.

 

Fixed-wing aircraft will normally have a minimum of 1,000 feet verical separation.Vertical separation may be reduced to 800 feet when inside 12 nm. Helicopters shall be separated by a minimum of 500 feet vertically.

Edited July 4, 2018 by steven43291

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Is one type used only for certain Cases and the other is used for other Cases (e.g. orbit stack for Case I and racetrack stack for Case II/III)?

 

Yes, the circular orbits Lex talks about are for Case I. Race track pattern is for Case I/III.

 

 

If I'm understanding correctly, with the ship at the 3 o'clock position the only time your DME will read 5nm is when you are at the 9 o'clock position. Does this mean that aircraft can only enter the orbit stack at the 9 o'clock position?

 

I believe you can enter at any point. It's just joining the 'circle' at a tangent then flying around.

[Nealius]

I see, it's in a different NATOPS manual. Is the "NAVAIR 00-80T-105 CV NATOPS" the manual I should be looking at?

 

From the CV NATOPS...

 

 

Departure from the port holding pattern for break entry shall be accomplished aft of the ship’s beam. Descent to the break from the port holding pattern is commenced by the lowest aircraft or flight in time to meet the ramp time. This descent should be planned so as to arrive at the initial (3 miles astern, 800 feet) wings level, paralleling the BRC.

 

Would it be correct to say that it's up to the pilot's discretion as to how to arrive at the initial once out of the pattern?

[Spiceman]

I see, it's in a different NATOPS manual. Is the "NAVAIR 00-80T-105 CV NATOPS" the manual I should be looking at?

 

 

 

Would it be correct to say that it's up to the pilot's discretion as to how to arrive at the initial once out of the pattern?

 

Yep... the CV NATOPS is for the ship’s procedures, which is what you want for marshaling and whatnot.

 

I believe so... the NATOPS doesn’t explicitly say other than the pilot shall plan to arrive at the initial at 3NM... presumably you may exceed the 5NM diameter in order to make that happen. I’m sure the boss would let you know if you weren’t being reasonable in your variances because you’d be screwing up his recovery operation.

[TonyG]

For those that want pictures and further reading, this is from the T-45 training material.

 

https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/docs/pat-pubs/P-1211.pdf

 

 

[Jar_VFA-113]

For anyone using the VFA-113 LSO mission this images from our CV NATOPS training page describes the port holding pattern and commence headings:

[lucky-hendrix]

My troubles is : how do you properly engage and stay in the 5nm circle around the boat ? There is no navaid that can help you do that ?

 

Do you just have a table with the required AOB for a 5nm turn radius at different speeds ?

 

Sent from my VTR-L09 using Tapatalk

[Precog]

My troubles is : how do you properly engage and stay in the 5nm circle around the boat ? There is no navaid that can help you do that ?

 

Do you just have a table with the required AOB for a 5nm turn radius at different speeds ?

 

Sent from my VTR-L09 using Tapatalk

 

Wouldn't you just use the boats tacan and fly an arc (circle)?

[Nealius]

Typically in an arc you have a constant DME to help you stay on the arc. In this case, because the TACAN is actually on the arc instead of the center of it, you won't have a constant DME.

[David OC]

For anyone using the VFA-113 LSO mission this images from our CV NATOPS training page describes the port holding pattern and commence headings:

 

My troubles is : how do you properly engage and stay in the 5nm circle around the boat ? There is no navaid that can help you do that ?

 

Do you just have a table with the required AOB for a 5nm turn radius at different speeds ?

 

 

Speeds are usually best performance for flight time, it's an AOA to hit.

 

I'm guess you can use the TACAN you wound have setup already, 2 or 4 = around 3.5 miles, pos 3 would be 5 miles of course, this gets you close enough.

 

.

[RED]

My troubles is : how do you properly engage and stay in the 5nm circle around the boat ? There is no navaid that can help you do that ?

 

Do you just have a table with the required AOB for a 5nm turn radius at different speeds ?

 

Sent from my VTR-L09 using Tapatalk

 

Try 250 kn 30°AOB

[Brun]

Try 250 kn 30°AOB

Page from the T-45 training above says speed should be at max conserve. I'm pretty sure I read max conserve is defined by a specific AOA, but can't find that now.

 

It may well be ~250kts, but would vary depending on weight.

 

 

Edit: Just noticed David said pretty much that above.

[Jar_VFA-113]

5nm is the MAX diameter of port holding. With a light jet at 250 knots 30 degree AOB we are more like 3-4nm diameter. Smaller diameters make for faster join ups at the start of a mission. Also makes your flight easier to find when you head for the post.

 

There is a cruiser portside of the carrier at roughly 5nm in the VFA-113 LSO Mission, you want to be inside that at position 3.

 

We just make sure position 1 looks right each time and maintain the bank, altitude, speed for the rest of the turn. You will need to fly BRC at position one each time to counter the fleet movement over the ocean.

Edited July 5, 2018 by JAR VFA-113 STINGERS

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Holding on departure? I've never seen anything on this; do you have details?

[Jar_VFA-113]

No.

Edited July 5, 2018 by JAR VFA-113 STINGERS

[Pikey]

Since this hold is in VFR you can visualise your "Post" on the approach. Depending on how the server/mission is setup, another ship as well as the Carrier helps. For mine i run a destroyer port side at 1.2nm which helps with the patterns whilst I calibrate my sight views. It's fairly reasonable to stick that post 1.5nm off the port of the carrier, then on the first lap round check your upwind part of the circuit is just clipping the carrier and adjust coming into that turn accordingly.

 

For Turning RV's and Carrier RV's I did a bit of practice at spinning on the merry go round and I found that redefining the circle every time you go though Point 1 to get it accurate is the easiest way to go.

[Nealius]

Last night I flew the pattern at 250kts 30° AoB. The radius of my turn varied with altitude. At 5000' I was about 4.Xnm at the 9 o'clock. At 2000' it was 3.Xnm.

[Jar_VFA-113]

Excellent Nealius that’s roughly what we see. The smaller the circle the faster and easier it is to join your flight.

Leads that run a 5nm port holding take forever to get their flight joined.