AUTO bomb steering line

[mvsgas]

correct, sorry, my bad. But the point is, it does not sway like a drunken sailor when banking the aircraft. It stays fixed perpendicular to the release point.

 

I wish someone that work on these or flew them would comment on it. I have never flown a harrier nor Worked on them so I do not know what is the proper behavior.

 

I know in DCS, if the target is in the Total Field Of View (TFOV) of the HUD, is very easy to line up the Velocity vector, the Target and the ASL. The ASL only swing back and for when trying to do a level release. Additionally, every example on the book, shows the aircraft in a dive toward the target and the Target on the TFOV of the HUD.

 

Other things we can see in the manual:

Once designated, the azimuth steering line

(ASL), time-to-go, and release cue (if in range)

are displayed if the target is in the TFOV of the

HUD as shown in Figure 2-53, detail A. If the

target is outside the TFOV, the ASL is replaced

by a steering arrow.

 

[ATTACH]199941[/ATTACH]

 

This tells me that the target would have to be in the TFOV of the HUD for us to get the ASL.

 

So as I posted before, is the error that we are not using it correctly and not understanding it, is it that the ASL is very sensitive to aircraft attitude changes or that it shows the ASL with the target outside of the HUD TFOV?

[Flagrum]

Azimuth Steering Line. The azimuth you are supposed to steer to - and for that it does not help if it swings 180 degrees in front of you, if you bank the aircraft a little ... that wide range the ASL moves, can never really coincidence with the desired release point. The release point, for unguided stuff, is always somewhere between you and the target, right (maybe crosswinds nonwithstanding)?

[shagrat]

I wish someone that work on these or flew them would comment on it. I have never flown a harrier nor Worked on them so I do not know what is the proper behavior.

 

I know in DCS, if the target is in the Total Field Of View (TFOV) of the HUD, is very easy to line up the Velocity vector, the Target and the ASL. The ASL only swing back and for when trying to do a level release. Additionally, every example on the book, shows the aircraft in a dive toward the target and the Target on the TFOV of the HUD.

 

Other things we can see in the manual:

 

 

[ATTACH]199941[/ATTACH]

 

This tells me that the target would have to be in the TFOV of the HUD for us to get the ASL.

 

So as I posted before, is the error that we are not using it correctly and not understanding it, is it that the ASL is very sensitive to aircraft attitude changes or that it shows the ASL with the target outside of the HUD TFOV?

As I said in my first post, fly a AUTO mode delivery in the F/A-18C and look at the HUD. It uses basically the same symbology...

The ASL must stay fixed as a "steering" indicator, as of now it sways and swerves with the slightest bank of the aircraft.

 

Next is the inverted release cue in CCIP.

Again, just look it up in the TAC manual and watch how it's supposed to work by doing a CCIP run with the F/A-18C.

 

Finally, CCIP cross does not just go dashed for (inaccurate), it gets dashed when the cross is outside the HUD FOV. Now the cross stays at the bottom of the HUD, the dashed line indicating that you can designate the target for an AUTO delivery. This one is different than in the F/A-18C, which uses the "Ball and Chain" symbology, but it works pretty much the same.

It's not rocket science... really!

[mvsgas]

Well, I pointed what the manual states, you keep pointing to what you think it should be. Will see if RAZBAM follows the manuals or what people want.

Edited December 21, 2018 by mvsgas

[seagull1606688860]

Well, I pointed what the manual states, you keep pointing to what you think it should be. Will see if RAZBAM follows the manuals or what people want.

 

 

I seriously doubt that the actual one works like this.

I might be wrong but at the current state, it is barely usable.

[mvsgas]

I seriously doubt that the actual one works like this.

I might be wrong but at the current state, it is barely usable.

 

I don't know how the RL one works either, I can only read the manual.

But but seriously doubting something does not make it fact nor false.

 

At any rate, there no point to the conversation, the Manuals are out there. The will change it or not.

 

Many things about this aircraft and other is hinder by a bureaucratic conundrum. They are trying to model an aircraft as accurate as possible, but can't do it 100% and can't reference the manuals they use to model it publicly.

Edited December 21, 2018 by mvsgas

[Flagrum]

Well, I pointed what the manual states, you keep pointing to what you think it should be. Will see if RAZBAM follows the manuals or what people want.

 

He gave his interpretation of what the manual says, and that does not contradict it. Or am I missing something? Just the manual + comparable experiences + common sense.

[Kula66]

Just adding this to the discussion for info ...

at 7:10

[mvsgas]

Just adding this to the discussion for info ...

at 7:10

 

Ircmp_SVt6E?start=422

 

[ATTACH]200272[/ATTACH]

 

I don't know the configuration on the video, don't know what setting the pilot has nor what weapons if any he was carrying. So release cues will be different, but ASL behavior looks the same to me.

[whiteladder]

Unfortunately the video is not that helpful, as the pilot doesn't bank at all while the Asl line is active so there is no way to tell if this is on any way behaving in the same manner that we currently have.

 

What is clear is that the Asl line as currently model is completely useless as an aid to accurate bombing and as a consequence makes the arbs pointless. It needs fixing.

 

A better video even though it is from a Corsair that shows how a Asl should behave is this

 

Edited December 21, 2018 by whiteladder

[shagrat]

Well, I pointed what the manual states, you keep pointing to what you think it should be. Will see if RAZBAM follows the manuals or what people want.

I pointed out how the same mode/workflow works in the F/A-18C and indicated that the transition to AUTO from CCIP is not possible as the dashed symbology is modeled wrong.

 

In addition the ASL is NOT projected over the "release point". It is a line perpendicular extending from the designation point/target. You point the velocity vector towards the target. The ASL itself is an infinite line over the target. Now the release cue (the short horizontal line coming down the ASL) is dynamically calculated and indicating the release point in front of the target.

 

I would ask you kindly to fly an AUTO delivery in the F/A-18C to see the difference for yourself.

As for the dive, diving does not change the swaying of ASL. To align everything you basically need to go CCIP with the AUTO symbology, which contradicts the whole idea of not flying straight into the AAA or gunfire. :dunno:

[Kula66]

Unfortunately the video is not that helpful, as the pilot doesn't bank at all while the Asl line is active

 

Actually, at the beginning of the sequence, he does bank a small amount and the line hardly wobbles ... in comparison the the current modelling in DCS.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Kula66

[Shadow_1stVFW]

So, the ASL is strange. I've found on 30 degree profiles it's fairly stable and usable and produces quality results. But if the target is not visible in the HUD FOV it's hard to get centered on. It's definitely not correct, that much is certain. it's not *COMPLETELY UNUSEABLE* as some have said, you can use it if your smooth and pay attention to what it's telling you, but it is most effective with the target in the HUD FOV.

 

Yes the video does show he banks enough that, in game, the ASL would move, which it doesn't in the sim. The issue is on the bug tracker (twice) so it'll be looked at. Why don't we all go digging for differnt issues to help move the module along?

[shagrat]

The issue is on the bug tracker (twice) so it'll be looked at. Why don't we all go digging for differnt issues to help move the module along?

Because the HUD bombing symbology, is the single most important thing to use the AV-8B in its primary role as a strike aircraft. ARBS, DMT, NAVFLIR etc. are all supporting the pilot to deliver "bombs on target". That whole concept works through the HUD.

 

It is an issue since day one.

 

Before the ASL, it would be cool, to get at least a correct working CCIP mode with the inverted cue, as per the TAC manual ( and implemented in the F/A-18C since day one of early access).

 

That would enable us to do at least proper CCIP deliveries, without training wrong symbology and bad habits.

 

It's fine to see the HUD symbology finally made it on the bug list, but I would like to see this being prioritized a bit, as it basically breaks the Harrier as an effective strike aircraft.

[Invisibull]

Any word on whether RAZBAM agrees this is an issue that needs fixing? CCRP is practically useless as it is now.

 

 

Update:

 

Apparently it's got a high priority but has not been tested according to their bug tracker.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Invisibull
update

[Zeus67]

ASL behavior has been updated. It is now in testing.

[Shadow_1stVFW]

That's the best news for this key for a while. Thanks

 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[shagrat]

ASL behavior has been updated. It is now in testing.

This is fantastic news! Thank you for addressing this.

[davidp57]

Good news ! Thanks Zeus !

[Sarge55]

Most excellent. Thanks Zeus.

[CallsignFrosty]

Still does not work - fall line is all over the place.

The fall line should go through the target - please refer to any other US aircraft in DCS for inspiration. A10, F/A-18C etc.

 

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

 

cough

Edited January 16, 2019 by CallsignFrosty

[Flagrum]

Still does not work - fall line is all over the place.

The fall line should go through the target - please refer to any other US aircraft in DCS for inspiration. A10, F/A-18C etc.

 

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

 

cough

 

There are two entries in their bug tracker concerning the ASL. So, hopefully this is not all, yet.

[shagrat]

Yeah, he said they are testing. Likely did not make it into the update. No problem. As long as they work on it...

[Captain Orso]

Today's openbeta update post says "Modified ASL behavior. Now it runs parallel to the pitch ladder", but I haven't tried it yet.

[shagrat]

Just updated, give me a minute. I'll check.