fixed [REPORTED-MINOR] Aileron travel with flap sdown

[NineLine]

Not really sure how that video proves it (maybe I missed seeing it, but looked like the flight control wipe cam after the flaps were up), and I am not sure how I validate you talked to Blue Angels personnel and confirmed an issue in DCS. Also not sure how you chatting with Blue Angel personnel is greater than ED's SMEs. Again, I am not seeing enough to sway me.

[Deano87]

Not really sure how that video proves it (maybe I missed seeing it, but looked like the flight control wipe cam after the flaps were up), and I am not sure how I validate you talked to Blue Angels personnel and confirmed an issue in DCS. Also not sure how you chatting with Blue Angel personnel is greater than ED's SMEs. Again, I am not seeing enough to sway me.

 

Nineline. In the video panicman just posted it shows clearly the ailerons moving to full deflection while the flaps are in full down and not during the FCS Bit, it starts at 4:22. Moreover there is a second control wipe performed after the pilot selects flaps auto which shows perfectly that the ailerons move to the exact same angle with the flaps up, this happens at 4:39. It’s visible in multiple other videos as well. It doesn’t match what the DCS simulated version of the jet does.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Deano87

[KTFBGB]

Although interesting, I’m failing to see the importance of the issue. Is it that it looks funny from outside? I don’t fly from an external view so that wouldn’t bother me. Is the argument that the aircraft underperforms in flight? Now that could be a gripe if so. But if it’s because you want to see another three degrees of movement during a pre flight wipe out in the F2 view, I beg the developers, please don’t waste valuable resources on this. Much more important things to work on.

[Deano87]

Although interesting, I’m failing to see the importance of the issue. Is it that it looks funny from outside? I don’t fly from an external view so that wouldn’t bother me. Is the argument that the aircraft underperforms in flight? Now that could be a gripe if so. But if it’s because you want to see another three degrees of movement during a pre flight wipe out in the F2 view, I beg the developers, please don’t waste valuable resources on this. Much more important things to work on.

 

I actually agree to some degree. I don’t think it’s a high priority issue. But there is a difference between it being deemed “No Bug” and the devs agreeing that it’s not correct but deeming it “Low Priority”. I have no problem with this not getting fixed until after lots of other stuff, but as long as it’s reported and put on a list somewhere.

[PanicMan15]

I give up. Good luck with development.

[KTFBGB]

I give up. Good luck with development.

 

Finally :thumbup:

[bkthunder]

Where is this report, because we do have SME's and I am sure this is something they would have went over internally already when they were putting the Hornet together.

 

I do need more than what you guys are giving me, views from videos and personal opinion based on that will not enact change.

 

Here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=214849&highlight=aileron+travel

 

8. Up aileron travel is incorrectly reduced when the flaps are set to HALF or FULL. The ailerons retain their full range of motion even when the flaps are extended and the ailerons droop to match.

 

I agree this may not clearly prove how the aileron movement should be modeled, and I am not saying that ED should model it based only on these videos. However, these are clear videos showing the RL behavior, so this is at least a very valid proof that something is different, and it should be investigated.

 

Again, not asking ED to change based on this proof, but asking ED to investigate based on this proof.

 

As Nineline said, they have SMEs. However Nineline is only supposing that SMEs had a look at this during development. Given the videos etc, I respectfully suppose that they didn't, so I am only asking that Nineline and Wags pass along this reasonable concern to the developers, in order to verify it and correct it as may be needed. We all want the highest fidelity right?

 

Thanks

 

P.S. the aileron displacement is taken into consideration by the FCS and presumably in the FM as well, so potentially there are performance differences.

Edited July 25, 2019 by bkthunder
formatting

[Ahmed]

Although interesting, I’m failing to see the importance of the issue. Is it that it looks funny from outside? I don’t fly from an external view so that wouldn’t bother me. Is the argument that the aircraft underperforms in flight? Now that could be a gripe if so. But if it’s because you want to see another three degrees of movement during a pre flight wipe out in the F2 view, I beg the developers, please don’t waste valuable resources on this. Much more important things to work on.

 

You understand that if maximum aileron travel is coded wrong it will affect the basic FM physics, right? Probably a low priority but this definitely deserves some further investigation with SMEs, although it could just be a WOW-only feature of the FCS (just a guess with no insight whatsoever)

[bkthunder]

You understand that if maximum aileron travel is coded wrong it will affect the basic FM physics, right? Probably a low priority but this definitely deserves some further investigation with SMEs, although it could just be a WOW-only feature of the FCS (just a guess with no insight whatsoever)

 

Definitely not a WOW only problem, ailerons are limited also while airborne with flaps down...

[NineLine]

8. Up aileron travel is incorrectly reduced when the flaps are set to HALF or FULL. The ailerons retain their full range of motion even when the flaps are extended and the ailerons droop to match.

 

There is only a slight difference, and I mean very slight difference in the travel distance thought. I just did a quick and dirty measurement in photoshop with a Hornet sitting on the runway, and they travel almost the same amount. Just a little less with the flaps down.

[bkthunder]

There is only a slight difference, and I mean very slight difference in the travel distance thought. I just did a quick and dirty measurement in photoshop with a Hornet sitting on the runway, and they travel almost the same amount. Just a little less with the flaps down.

 

According to the RL pilot, "ailerons retain their full range of motion even with flaps down".

 

 

Not sure what you did with photoshop, but according to the FCS page, there is a huge difference:

 

Aileron up travel with flaps up:

• 
  25 degrees up
  

 

Aileron up travel with flaps Half:

• 8 degrees up

 

That's a difference of 17 degrees, which is pretty substantial.

[NineLine]

When you say travel I assume you mean how much full movement, that is what I measured, of course when the flaps are down, the angle up changes from +25 to +8, but down also increases from -25 to -45.

[Deano87]

When you say travel I assume you mean how much full movement, that is what I measured, of course when the flaps are down, the angle up changes from +25 to +8, but down also increases from -25 to -45.

 

Thats not what we have been talking about, and also not what the real jet does. With the flaps down the up going aileron still goes to the same position as it does with the flaps up. The down going aileron goes further with the flaps down. So the TOTAL movement of the ailerons increases when the flaps are lowered. Below is a comparison between a control wipe (NOT an FCS check) With the flaps down and the flaps up, you can clearly see that the upgoing aileron goes to the exact same position.

 

[KTFBGB]

Thats not what we have been talking about, and also not what the real jet does. With the flaps down the up going aileron still goes to the same position as it does with the flaps up. The down going aileron goes further with the flaps down. So the TOTAL movement of the ailerons increases when the flaps are lowered. Below is a comparison between a control wipe (NOT an FCS check) With the flaps down and the flaps up, you can clearly see that the upgoing aileron goes to the exact same position.

 

 

Is that hornet the same block as what we have in game?

[Deano87]

Is that hornet the same block as what we have in game?

 

F-18s don’t have Blocks. And I believe there was only 10 C models in Lot-20. So no that jet isn’t the same lot as what we have in game. But that is besides the point, I can’t find video of a Legacy hornet doing a control wipe with the flaps down that didn’t show the same behaviour and irl hornet pilots have commented that the up going aileron should move to the same position regardless of flap selection.

[KTFBGB]

F-18s don’t have Blocks. And I believe there was only 10 C models in Lot-20. So no that jet isn’t the same lot as what we have in game. But that is besides the point, I can’t find video of a Legacy hornet doing a control wipe with the flaps down that didn’t show the same behaviour and irl hornet pilots have commented that the up going aileron should move to the same position regardless of flap selection.

 

But the real life hornet drivers that acted as SME’s on the development of the module and one hornet mechanic on here that actually worked on the hydraulic systems say that the behavior is correct. So who is right?

[bkthunder]

But the real life hornet drivers that acted as SME’s on the development of the module and one hornet mechanic on here that actually worked on the hydraulic systems say that the behavior is correct. So who is right?

 

Did they say it's correct? No, they didn't. Nineline said he is "sure they would have had a look at this during development.

 

With all due respect, and in the face of copious and clear video evidence, I am equally sure they didn't.

 

In any case, it's pointless to argue about this, just pass it to the devs and actually verify with the SMEs. If it is correct the way it is now, then it means our Lot-20 FCS is different than any other F-18 that has ever appeared on camera or known to RL pilots on here, and as an aviation nerd, it would be great to know why, from the people that know these details.

[NineLine]

Did they say it's correct? No, they didn't. Nineline said he is "sure they would have had a look at this during development.

 

With all due respect, and in the face of copious and clear video evidence, I am equally sure they didn't.

 

In any case, it's pointless to argue about this, just pass it to the devs and actually verify with the SMEs. If it is correct the way it is now, then it means our Lot-20 FCS is different than any other F-18 that has ever appeared on camera or known to RL pilots on here, and as an aviation nerd, it would be great to know why, from the people that know these details.

 

What I was told is that it was correct as-is from the Hornet dev team. The thread was closed, and I reopened to see if there was any compelling info, but I am not sure a picture of a CF-188 is compelling enough to argue with the dev team.

[bkthunder]

What I was told is that it was correct as-is from the Hornet dev team. The thread was closed, and I reopened to see if there was any compelling info, but I am not sure a picture of a CF-188 is compelling enough to argue with the dev team.

 

Please don't downplay it, you ask for evidence, there is plenty of visual evidence in this thread.

There isn't only a picutre of a CF-188, did you not see the previous posts?

There are a total of 2 videos and 2 pictures (from another 2 videos which can be found on youtube - I can link them here I have time).

Plus reports form RL pilot on this very forum and linked previously.

 

Look, here's one more, we're up to 5 videos.

 

controls wipeout with flaps down = full aileron upward deflection.

 

 

Not asking you to argue with the dev team, just asking you to pass this information on.

I understand you already disturbed them once, but honestly, I can't believe this thread doesn't instill at least a reasonable doubt in your mind too...

Edited July 29, 2019 by bkthunder
fixed youtube

[BIGNEWY]

Hi bkthunder,

 

Just to say the team are not downplaying this, they have been made aware. As it stands at the moment there will be no change, if they say different we will let you know.

[bkthunder]

Hi bkthunder,

 

Just to say the team are not downplaying this, they have been made aware. As it stands at the moment there will be no change, if they say different we will let you know.

 

Thanks! :thumbup:

[bkthunder]

Will this be fixed as part of the FM review?

[FightsOn]

I’m one of the RL Hornet pilots who reported this (and other bugs).  I’d be happy to sit down and explain it to the Dev’s if they’d listen.

 

There are multiple issues with the hydraulic / FCS system as modeled, but a couple small fixes could make it realistic enough for sim purposes without overhauling the whole system.