Easy Refuel Option

[VWJII]

If I buy a product, that advertises as (...)"DCS World is fundamentally a deep, authentic and realistic simulation designed also to offer a more relaxed gameplay to suit the user and his particular level of experience and training. The ambition is to hand hold users from novice pilot all the way to the most advanced and sophisticated operator of such complex weapons systems as the A-10C Warthog or the F/A-18C Hornet."(...) I do not expect that I am FORCED to learn Air-to-Air-Refueling over a time span of several month playing time, instead of ENJOYING said product.

 

That however does not mean that every single plane and every single activity in DCS has scale. Did you notice that Tomcat for example does not have "game mode" bindings?

There is no single button to land you either. Regardless of how much help you setup in P-51 it will still be challenging to takeoff and land. If you want easy, you fly FC3 aircrafts and you are definitely not forced to AAR. You can have just as much fun without it.

And of you want easy in all activities then maybe, just maybe a simulator is not the product you're looking for. You must be able to learn, rinse and repeat. How do you think that anyone made it this far in DCS?

[VWJII]

It maybe a bit disconcerting for you, but there are a lot of people that do NOT want to "retain realism", but have fun with a "realistic looking and feeling" simulation. For this audience time is a valuable resource, they want to spend on things they enjoy, not dread.

That is why making this optional is important. So it don't break realism for hardcore players and squadrons, as well as, catering the needs of more casual players.

I spent years having fun in DCS without AAR or anything. Often I just fly around, not even fire weapons. Learn how to start up a bird and fly. If you cannot be bothered with the basics, this is not a product for you, no matter how much it simplifies things. The underlying realism will always manifest in one way or another and you need to spend the time learning.

[probad]

it does take things away from others because you start speaking a different language

like i have a friend who just relies on autothrottle and acls to trap and when im discussing throttle management flying case 1 he's talking crap borne out of his lazy, bad habits.

 

so no i dont support the avoidance of learning. when you avoid the learning process you do a disservice to both yourself and the entire sim community

do it right or don't do it at all

Edited May 11, 2019 by probad

[shagrat]

That however does not mean that every single plane and every single activity in DCS has scale. Did you notice that Tomcat for example does not have "game mode" bindings?

There is no single button to land you either. Regardless of how much help you setup in P-51 it will still be challenging to takeoff and land. If you want easy, you fly FC3 aircrafts and you are definitely not forced to AAR. You can have just as much fun without it.

And of you want easy in all activities then maybe, just maybe a simulator is not the product you're looking for. You must be able to learn, rinse and repeat. How do you think that anyone made it this far in DCS?

But you can activate arcade mode, nonetheless, as well as invulnerability, unlimited fuel, auto-start-up, Iceman AI etc. game mode bindings, may be added during early access, I wouldn't use an unfinished WIP for arguments sake.

Anyway the point is, you do not have any impact on your(!) experience, because others(!) get an option to enhance their experience.

You simply want to deny the option to force something on others you feel they need to do, to be "worthy" of some elaborate "club"?

And though I don't have problems with hardcore realistic squadrons, or simulation purists, I have a problem with forcing certain limitations on others, just to... well, I don't really understand why. :dunno:

[shagrat]

it does take things away from others because you start speaking a different language

like i have a friend who just relies on autothrottle and acls to trap and when im discussing throttle management flying case 1 he's talking crap borne out of his lazy, bad habits.

 

so no i dont support the avoidance of learning. when you avoid the learning process you do a disservice to both yourself and the entire sim community

 

Can you explain the "entire sim community" for me? To my knowledge, there is a small number of virtual squadrons, some hardcore lone wolfs and a couple subject matter experts. The majority of the "DCS community" as far as I am aware is largely playing single player, does Campaigns, rather than Multiplayer and the largest sales seem to be campaigns and FC3... So, for whomever you think you speak, it may not be who you think they are... in fact you can only speak for yourself.

As I said before, we have a clear advertisement from Eagle Dynamics how they intent DCS to be flexible in terms of options for different game styles.

As long as we add options(!) to give more flexibility, we potentially enlarge the player base, which means more modules in the long term, and a stable platform. I am very interested to see what happens when MAC is finally launched, and how this attracts new customers and how they perceive the options and features... ;)

[VWJII]

Anyway the point is, you do not have any impact on your(!) experience, because others(!) get an option to enhance their experience.

You simply want to deny the option to force something on others you feel they need to do, to be "worthy" of some elaborate "club"?

And though I don't have problems with hardcore realistic squadrons, or simulation purists, I have a problem with forcing certain limitations on others, just to... well, I don't really understand why. :dunno:

 

Well this is where you are wrong. It will take a lot of effort to implenent the feature and maintain it. That alone has major impact on all of us, because we want new planes, fixes, features etc..

This isn't about purism. Better tutorials and guides is what will benefit all, instead of making it easy for people who cannot be bothered to spend a few hours to learn something.

I don't want to deny people, I want to change their mindset. Honestly I don't understand why people will spend the time needed to setup DCS and then expect everything will be push of a button.

[shagrat]

do it right or don't do it at all

So you are the one to decide how others have to use the product they bought?! I don't think so.

...and by the way, you can even get away with never ever using manual start-up, flying with game avionics (360° Radar, even for WW II planes), by simply switching them on. If you host a server, you can even force it on others. It is up to them, if they decide to join an Arcade Flight Server or not. You cannot forbid people to launch it with these settings.

I personally don't like the arcade mode, but find it nice to have the auto start-up even in MP, after experiencing the second or third crash in Multiplayer during or shortly after startup, so I can have a quick snack or go to the toilette, instead of going through the start up for the 3rd or 4th time.

It's all about personal preference. This is a hobby, not a religion. ;)

[JumpinK]

Whenever i read any messages here on the forum regarding aerial refuelling i'm asking myself: do you guys even train this or what is the problem with it?!

I remember training to get fuel from anoher aircraft since my dcs day one and i've never had any problems wirh it. If course it was difficult at the beginning especially with the f-15 but after some hours of training it became very natural and i got better and better with every time i've done it. When the mirage arrived i actually found it very easy to put the drouge in the basket and staying in until the tanks are filled up again. It took me some training with the harrier again since the drogue is mounted in a quite uncomortable position on this aircraft. But again, after some attempts evrything became natural and not that difficult anymore. Surely it's much easier in VR but also in pancake mode it's very doable after some training. After all it's just hitting the basket and continuing close formation flying. Not a very big deal when you have the right sim-setup. I just don't understand those endless "how to refuel" threads around the forums here. Am i really this talented or are those who just can't get it done that lazy and don't want to train harder?! IMO in this sim there shouldn't be any easy refuelling option. Go and play ace combat if you can't handle a good simulation!

Edited May 11, 2019 by JumpinK
sorry for the typos. writing on my mobile is much more difficult than aerial refuelling.

[shagrat]

Well this is where you are wrong. It will take a lot of effort to implenent the feature and maintain it. That alone has major impact on all of us, because we want new planes, fixes, features etc..

This isn't about purism. Better tutorials and guides is what will benefit all, instead of making it easy for people who cannot be bothered to spend a few hours to learn something.

I don't want to deny people, I want to change their mindset. Honestly I don't understand why people will spend the time needed to setup DCS and then expect everything will be push of a button.

I don't want "everything" to be a push button. I would be even ok, with something like a more "assisted" AAR that works a bit like auto rudder etc.

AAR is one of the most challenging tasks in flying military airplanes.

So we have an aid to help people through the start-up, but not through AAR? Now, think of the AV-8B. You would load weapons, empty fuel tanks and AAR shortly after launching from the boat. This means I need to master AAR before I can start any mission that isn't very close to the coast/an airport, or I need to use unlimited fuel. I don't like unlimited fuel, as it does not require fuel management, does not provide the changes in flight model through losing weight etc.

I would prefer an easier AAR option, maybe with an assisted hold altitude or more relaxed basket area/keeping airspeed and thus connected or something like this... as long as it is an option you can control, it is a benefit, for everyone who is not interested in "doing it fully realistic" and no, that isn't something "bad", or "wrong". It's just a different style of gameplay, you personally do not enjoy, but others do.

[discwalker]

@VWJII, You want to change my mindset?!! First of all please send to me better equipment, not just hotas. I tried enough hard to refuel in my planes, and only succeed the Su-33.

Hornet with ATC on has a marginal unrealistic feature missing. Small ATC correnctions is not always possible due, my throttle axis not moving via ATC. Not always moveable the real axis to small corrections to speed.

What an idea to neglegt the need for a feaure in a feature request thread.

[shagrat]

Whenever i read any messages here on the forum regarding aerial refuelling i'm asking myself: do you guys even train this or what is the problem with it?!

I remember training to get fuel from anoher aircraft since my dcs day one and i've never had any problems wirh it. If course it was difficult at the beginning especially with the f-15 but after some hours of training it became very natural and i got better and better with every time i've done it. When the mirage arrived i actually found it very easy to put the drouge in the basket and staying in until the tanks are filled up again. It took me some training with the harrier again since the drogue is mounted in a quite uncomortable position on this aircraft. But again, after some attempts evrything became natural and not that difficult anymore. Surely it's much easier in VR but also in pancake mode it's very doable after some training. After all it's just hitting the basket and continuing close formation flying. Not a very big deal when you have the right sim-setup. I just don't understand those endless "how to refuel" threads around the forums here. Am i really this talented or are those who just can't get it done that lazy and don't want to train harder?! IMO in this sim there shouldn't be any easy refuelling option. Go and play ace combat if you can't handle a good simulation!

Either you are a natural or I suck immensely, but I have a hard time, plugging in, with each new plane and it takes a lot of my available flying time away. Yes, I get better after some time, but I am very aware, how this scares away any newcomer, switching from easier/more relaxed products.

After the addition of wing turbulence I am back to square one, and no, I am not happy to waste another month or two of playing time to train again, instead of doing something I actually enjoy.

But as we ideally get this whole thing as an option, it would not harm any hardcore players, just make things easier for others, that likely never play on any hardcore server with these options deactivated. At least not for long.

[shagrat]

Well this is where you are wrong. It will take a lot of effort to implenent the feature and maintain it. That alone has major impact on all of us, because we want new planes, fixes, features etc..

This isn't about purism. Better tutorials and guides is what will benefit all, instead of making it easy for people who cannot be bothered to spend a few hours to learn something.

I don't want to deny people, I want to change their mindset. Honestly I don't understand why people will spend the time needed to setup DCS and then expect everything will be push of a button.

It is already in the Sim, or how do you think the AI is doing AAR?

Edit: ...and if you leave a plane by switching, the AI takes over, automatically, as well.

Edited May 11, 2019 by shagrat

[shagrat]

@VWJII, You want to change my mindset?!! First of all please send to me better equipment, not just hotas. I tried enough hard to refuel in my planes, and only succeed the Su-33.

Hornet with ATC on has a marginal unrealistic feature missing. Small ATC correnctions is not always possible due, my throttle axis not moving via ATC. Not always moveable the real axis to small corrections to speed.

What an idea to neglegt the need for a feaure in a feature request thread.

...and that is another, very good argument. Not everybody can invest in a months payment worth of equipment.

[JumpinK]

Either you are a natural or I suck immensely, but I have a hard time, plugging in, with each new plane and it takes a lot of my available flying time away. Yes, I get better after some time, but I am very aware, how this scares away any newcomer, switching from easier/more relaxed products.

After the addition of wing turbulence I am back to square one, and no, I am not happy to waste another month or two of playing time to train again, instead of doing something I actually enjoy.

But as we ideally get this whole thing as an option, it would not harm any hardcore players, just make things easier for others, that likely never play on any hardcore server with these options deactivated. At least not for long.

 

 

Well, i think DCS isn't really about "hop in and be maverick" from day one. It's the very best air combat simulator available on the market and to "play" it properly you have to train hard to get better. "Easy something options" are not a thing for me but it's just my opinion. I even learned a little russian to get the migs going without those english cockpit mods. But again. It's just my opinion. If someone needs those easy options then it's totally okay for me. I just never touched them and never will...

[shagrat]

Well, i think DCS isn't really about "hop in and be maverick" from day one. It's the very best air combat simulator available on the market and to "play" it properly you have to train hard to get better. "Easy something options" are not a thing for me but it's just my opinion. I even learned a little russian to get the migs going without those english cockpit mods. But again. It's just my opinion. If someone needs those easy options then it's totally okay for me. I just never touched them and never will...

That's what people ask for. An option.

[norbot]

My free time for DCS is quite limited, so from my perspective it would be very helpful, if we had an easy refueling option. It could be just a box to check or uncheck in the options of the respective aircraft. Those who need it hardcore, can have it their way, the ones who don't, would have to option to fly missions with an AAR, without having to train hours and hours for it. Why not let the user decide? :huh:

[JumpinK]

My free time for DCS is quite limited, so from my perspective it would be very helpful, if we had an easy refueling option. It could be just a box to check or uncheck in the options of the respective aircraft. Those who need it hardcore, can have it their way, the ones who don't, would have to option to fly missions with an AAR, without having to train hours and hours for it. Why not let the user decide? :huh:

 

 

 

 

Aiaiai. Those germans...

May ED hear you and give you this option!

Greetings from austria! :smilewink:

[norbot]

Aiaiai. Those germans...

May ED hear you and give you this option!

Greetings from austria! :smilewink:

 

Hahaha! I knew it. The aces always come from Austria. :D:smilewink:

Edited May 11, 2019 by norbot

[JumpinK]

Haha. Yes. Maybe. But unfortunately the Adolfs too...

[Exorcet]

Do you have the Tomcat? There is an option for assisted startup with Jester. Now, that is what I call easy and accessible. It is practically the startup tutorial, Jester tells you what to do and gives you all the visual cues. It is flawless, I learned how to startup the plane without using autostart.

 

Do you see the substantial difference between autostart and this? This assisted approach is what keeps realism, while enabling the pilot to learn and eventually perform the tasks on their own. This is what is needed for the sake of accessibility and easing the players into the complex environment of a sim.

 

Cheats and autostarts do not teach you anything. If you really want to make things easy for players, then think in perspective of educating them better, rather than simplifying things for them. What is needed, is exactly some sort of assisted AAR, which would give me all the visual queues and instructions. Not a button that refuels for you.

I do have the F-14, and I do like the assisted start feature, but I don't consider it "better" than the autostart. When I'm learning start up, I usually use the DCS training mission first, but this actually quickly becomes not so helpful at least for me. It's usually a bit slower paced. After the first few times I find having a checklist that I can go through as fast I want helpful. However autostart is also helpful when learning because I can use it after a attempting a manual start or if I get stuck. It tells you the steps you need to follow on screen and it's pretty fast. I think autostart can teach you quite a bit. That said though, it doesn't really matter what people use. If someone is going to only autostart their planes, that doesn't make them a bad pilot or take away from the sim. Even when it comes to manual starts, I see a lot of people that just skip tests or any other steps they can get away with just to make it faster. Attitude counts as much as anything else. The people that want to learn will learn regardless of what options are available.

 

 

When it comes to easy AAR specifically it can still be a learning tool for real AAR. For one thing it might encourage a player to AAR instead of ignoring it for being too hard, and they might decide to eventually move up to unassisted AAR. It also lets mission builds worry less about accessibility with respect to requiring a tanker in a mission. More exposure to AAR may drive players to have more interest in it.

 

 

it does take things away from others because you start speaking a different language

like i have a friend who just relies on autothrottle and acls to trap and when im discussing throttle management flying case 1 he's talking crap borne out of his lazy, bad habits.

 

so no i dont support the avoidance of learning. when you avoid the learning process you do a disservice to both yourself and the entire sim community

do it right or don't do it at all

This has nothing to do with assists. It's attitude. Your friend doesn't want to learn. This is going to happen with assists or not, not only because people might not care to learn, but because limited time on their part may prevent them from learning a module completely.

 

 

Go and play ace combat if you can't handle a good simulation!

Your suggestion makes no sense. AAR is entirely option. So if someone enjoys DCS, can play it competently, but doesn't AAR, they should play Ace Combat? Why would they do that? Why would they even consider it?

 

 

There is no right way to use DCS. It's completely up to each given user. No one has to master AAR to have the right to play.

[VWJII]

@VWJII, You want to change my mindset?!! First of all please send to me better equipment, not just hotas.

 

Not sure what is wrong with HOTAS, but guess what? I did not fly helis until I got rudder pedals, because I just could not fly them with joystick twist. Did I come here and cried that the game needs to meet my setup or make it easy enough for me?

No, I made the effort because I want to LEARN.

And yes, buying those rudder pedals or HOTAS ment I did not buy other stuff. Because I uderstand I'm here to fly a simulator, which requires both hardware and above all time. Duh.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

No, I made the effort because I want to LEARN.

And yes, buying those rudder pedals or HOTAS ment I did not buy other stuff. Because I uderstand I'm here to fly a simulator, which requires both hardware and above all time. Duh.

 

Good for you. Like it or not, most people flying DCS aren't that hard core. Options to make DCS accessible are already in it. Take them away and make it inaccessible to anyone who doesn't have several hundred $ of equipment and hours to burn learning the details, then it kiss goodbye to a significant number of players and quite possibly the future of DCS along with it.

[shagrat]

Good for you. Like it or not, most people flying DCS aren't that hard core. Options to make DCS accessible are already in it. Take them away and make it inaccessible to anyone who doesn't have several hundred $ of equipment and hours to burn learning the details, then it kiss goodbye to a significant number of players and quite possibly the future of DCS along with it.

^this. There must be a reason for ED to go through the effort and create something like Modern Air Combat. If there were only hardcoresimmers buying and playing DCS, why would you make a simplified game like MAC from full DCS modules, if nobody would want them? ;)

[shagrat]

Not sure what is wrong with HOTAS, but guess what? I did not fly helis until I got rudder pedals, because I just could not fly them with joystick twist. Did I come here and cried that the game needs to meet my setup or make it easy enough for me?

No, I made the effort because I want to LEARN.

And yes, buying those rudder pedals or HOTAS ment I did not buy other stuff. Because I uderstand I'm here to fly a simulator, which requires both hardware and above all time. Duh.

That's the difference between you and ED. They are aware it is important to offer a broader range of accessibility, for different customers, so lots of people can enjoy DCS World.

I for example invest a lot of my free time in translating missions for free, helping people here on the german forum to master the first steps into the Sim. waste time in testing modules, verifying issues posted,, instead of "proper training AAR" to give this community something in return, because I am actually a nice guy.

There is no "requirement to follow real world procedures and invest all of your spare time" listed by Eagle Dynamics, nor is it required. On the contrary, as I posted above the original advertisement of DCS World is very precise when it comes to accessibility.

Maybe, DCS isn't the right simulation for you, as it is so full of cheats and nerfed already, that with the wrong settings it doesn't work for you? Or you just set it to the options that give you an enjoyable time and leave others to enjoy their simulation, the way they like it... just a suggestion, for everybody's peace of mind.

[Mad Dog 7.62]

I would love an easy AAR option!!