Harlikwin Posted February 7, 2019 Posted February 7, 2019 I'm not the one saying it's not right, I'm the one who asked him a question and he replied saying something else, something that is not compatible with what I see in DCS. Since his word on the topic matters, because he's a pilot and he flew the real thing, I thought it would be a good idea to let the devs know about this. Now, if that's funny, well I can't do much about it... Just trying to show that something might be wrong. Since the PR guy said it's as good as it gets. Honestly this comports pretty well with my experience flying the Razbam one. Only when I try to do something stupid (Like pull 9G's after dropping a Mk84 off one station) do I see really bad things happen (As they should IMO), OR when landing in VSTOL/low speed. Think about it for vertical landing, you have 0 lift from the wing, and you have identical thrust from the nozzles, you do have the blower/puffer system, but I very much doubt it can deal with a 1000+lb imbalance on a wing, probably not even 200lbs. New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really).
mvsgas Posted February 7, 2019 Posted February 7, 2019 Following the Flight Syllabus Guide V3.0 or March 2012 for VMAT-203 [ATTACH]204059[/ATTACH] Track made in Caucasus Open Beta version2.5.4.26825 [ATTACH]204060[/ATTACH] Every thing seems to behave as describe in the training manual. Could you guys explain what is so different? Keep in mind I have never flown the RL aircraft like you guys. What I see is I fail to recover properly after departure, did not maintain proper AoA entering or exiting the maneuver. How about the aircraft behavior? To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
Nealius Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 The assymetric wing roll has bugged me since release. Dropping a MK83 for example can make the plane roll steeply and nearly uncontrollably. And even when you trim it to level flight, pulling any G's will induce a roll again. I just can't imagine this is the case in the real thing and I've never experienced a stores-induced roll this badly even in F-16 sims when launching the heavy HARM (which does induce a roll, but it's very controllable and trimmable). Operationally you'll never drop a single Mk83 anyway, unless it's got a laser guidance or JDAM kit on it. A lot of the problems people complain about are problems that crop up when they fly the airplane like they're flying Ace Combat. Fly it like they would in real life and you won't have problems.
Konovalov Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 Operationally you'll never drop a single Mk83 anyway, unless it's got a laser guidance or JDAM kit on it. A lot of the problems people complain about are problems that crop up when they fly the airplane like they're flying Ace Combat. Fly it like they would in real life and you won't have problems. Totally agree. :thumbup: At the end of the day Razbam had direct feedback from Harrier pilots who I think it is reasonable to presume flew the actual Razbam Harrier module along with written/verbal feedback so I have no reason to question the flight model. Intel i7-8700K | Asus Maximus X Formula | Corsair Vengeance 32GB DDR4 3200MHz | Gainward Phoenix GTX1070 GLH | Samsung 960 EVO NVMe 1 x 250GB OS & 1 x 500GB Games | Corsair RM750x 750W | Corsair Carbide Air 540| Win10 | Dell 27" 1440p 60Hz | Custom water loop: CPU EK-Supremacy EVO, GPU EK-GTX JetStream - Acetal+Nickel & Backplate, Radiator EK-Coolstream PE 360, Pump & Res EK-XRES 140 Revo D5, Fans 3 x EK-Vardar 120mm & 2 x Corsair ML140 140mm
JaBoG32_Herby Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 Following the Flight Syllabus Guide V3.0 or March 2012 for VMAT-203 [ATTACH]204059[/ATTACH] Track made in Caucasus Open Beta version2.5.4.26825 [ATTACH]204060[/ATTACH] Every thing seems to behave as describe in the training manual. Could you guys explain what is so different? Keep in mind I have never flown the RL aircraft like you guys. What I see is I fail to recover properly after departure, did not maintain proper AoA entering or exiting the maneuver. How about the aircraft behavior? To answer your question, Sir, as far as I’m concerned, predictable and as expected. Well, more precisely, as expected if you’ve cared to look at the appropriate manuals, like you did, but which is presumably something not anyone commenting here invested some time in. Creating an asymmetric loading will result in requiring corrective steering inputs by either the pilot or the automatic flight control system. That at least is the experience I gathered in flying several different aircraft types in the real world, with the AV-8B not being among them. As a side note, since some people apparently tend to believe, an airplane is supposed to fly straight and level naturally, not even a fly by wire aircraft like an Airbus A320 keeps its attitude precisely without corrective steering inputs. To give an answer to the OP, I’m inclined to belive, based on my experience with this module so far, that the Flight Dynamics for the RAZBAM AV-8B are a fairly accurate simulation of what could be expected from an airplane with the given characteristics. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
some1 Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) Operationally you'll never drop a single Mk83 anyway, unless it's got a laser guidance or JDAM kit on it. A lot of the problems people complain about are problems that crop up when they fly the airplane like they're flying Ace Combat. Fly it like they would in real life and you won't have problems. You mean, fly in real life like this one? or A typical British payload from Afghanistan would be one aircraft with two 1,000 LGBs (which actually weight more than an Mk83 due to laser kit - something around 1,300lbs each). The other aircraft would carry two rocket pods and two paveways or 540lbs bombs on the outermost pylons like the one below, with the bombs intended to be dropped separately, as one was wired for airburst and one for explosion on impact. Not arguing if the FM is correct or not, just pointing out that asymmetric payload was a very typical situation in real life. Maybe the pilots played too much Ace Combat in their free time... Edited February 8, 2019 by some1 Hardware: VPForce Rhino, FSSB R3 Ultra, Virpil WarBRD, Hotas Warthog, Winwing F15EX, Slaw Rudder, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Quest Pro
HWasp Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) Here are two pics with the control indicator, while having 1 single Mk-83 on the outer wing pylon. Straight and level. This does not seem excessive to me. If I had a real harrier stick with real forces and curves set to zero it would be even less of a problem. Other than this, according to the NATOPS parts in a previous post, there should be a wing drop tendency at more than M 0.8 (something like Mig-15 simulates well, if you have that module. Also the F-86). I've never experienced it with the AV-8. I can pull 12 degrees AoA at Mach 0.85, no control problems, none of the effects described there. Now that is a missing FM feature. Edited February 8, 2019 by HWasp
HWasp Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) 11.3.1.3 Transonic Wing Drop All variants of the AV−8B can experience a sudden uncommanded roll−off, also called wing drop, caused by the abrupt asymmetric stall of the wings. Wing drop occurs suddenly, with little or no warning to the pilot, and may occur at AOAs below the maneuvering tone. The severity of wing drop increases as Mach number increases and as altitude decreases. At Mach numbers greater than 0.8 IMN, wing drop may occur 3° AOA below the maneuvering tone. At greater than 0.8 IMN wing drop may occur 3° AOA below maneuvering tone. The severity of wing drop increases as Mach number increases and as altitude decreases. If wing drop occurs, flying qualities can be improved by reducing AOA. WARNING Transonic wing drop may occur at angles of attack below the maneuvering tone. Extreme care should be exercised at elevated AOA when maneuvering near ground level above Mach 0.8. . This! You can pull over the tone while at M0.9 easily, no ill effects, nothing Why is this not simulated here? We have sort of similiar effects with the Mig-15 and F-86. Thats the problem not the asymmetric loads in my opinion. Edited February 8, 2019 by HWasp
mvsgas Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 Here are two pics with the control indicator, while having 1 single Mk-83 on the outer wing pylon. Straight and level. This does not seem excessive to me. If I had a real harrier stick with real forces and curves set to zero it would be even less of a problem. Other than this, according to the NATOPS parts in a previous post, there should be a wing drop tendency at more than M 0.8 (something like Mig-15 simulates well, if you have that module. Also the F-86). I've never experienced it with the AV-8. I can pull 12 degrees AoA at Mach 0.85, no control problems, none of the effects described there. Now that is a missing FM feature. Not sure what your trying to say, but both of you picks are below .8 mach. Also, the manual does not state you will have wing drop tendency above .8 mach. It reads At Mach numbers greater than 0.8 IMN, wing drop may occur 3° AOA below the maneuvering tone. In addition, A1-AV8BB-NFM-00 para 11.4.3 At AOA close to the maneuvering tone, sideslip build−up is highly dependent upon the roll response of the aircraft. 11.4.5.4.4 Loaded rolls with the maneuvering tone are inadvisable. The best technique is to reduce AOA, roll with lateral stick, and then pull back into the turn. If a loaded roll must be made, then the ailerons should be coordinated with an appropriate amount of rudder. With a lateral weight asymmetry, departure resistance will be reduced for aileron−only rolls in the direction of the asymmetry or for rudder−only rolls away from the asymmetry 11.5.1.1 Wing Rock Wing rock is a fast, uncommanded roll oscillation that occurs just prior to a departure. At low airspeeds (below approximately 250 KCAS), the wings may “rock” 3 to 4 times before the aircraft actually departs. At higher speeds (IMN), especially with 100 percent LERX, there may be no rock beyond just a single roll reversal followed instantly by a departure. Wing rock also contributes to sideslip buildup. By creating an oscillatory yaw divergence, wing rock usually leads to a departure unless the AOA is immediately reduced. 11.5.1.4 Maneuvering Tone The maneuvering tone operates as a function of AOA and IMN. If AOA onset is smooth and progressive the tone will sound to warn the pilot that the aircraft is in a flight condition where the DEPRES is likely approaching saturation. However, since the tone operates as a function of AOA and because HUD AOA can lag significantly with high AOA onset rates, the aircraft can enter a departure condition without the tone sounding. The smart AV−8B pilot should not rely on the tone to warn of an impending departure and should keep AOA onset rates smooth and progressive. There have been quite a few high speed departures in this aircraft where the maneuvering tone begins to sound as the aircraft is in its first or second post−stall gyration from a departure. Which LERX do we have in DCS? does any one know? To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
mvsgas Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 You mean, fly in real life like this one? ...... You have any photos of the harrier with a single bomb on the outer pylon with nothing on the opposite wing? Not wing tanks, not targeting pod. Just a single bomb on station 1 or 7. To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
HWasp Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) The pics are related to asymmetric loadouts. NOT to the transsonic phenomena. 2nd and different subject (related to your post): Lack of the transsonic behaviour described in your post: I can accelerate to M 0.9 and pull the stick beyond the maneuvering tone and it still flies stable, no wing drop, nothing in particular. (that is with symmetric loadout) Edited February 8, 2019 by HWasp
some1 Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 You have any photos of the harrier with a single bomb on the outer pylon with nothing on the opposite wing? Not wing tanks, not targeting pod. Just a single bomb on station 1 or 7. I don't, that would mean a post-combat photo, not a staged one for a camera. But here's a typical combat loadout from Afghanistan with LGB's on the outermost pylons, since the inner pylons are reserved from tanks and unguided rockets pods, which the Brits used quite often as a low-yield weapons. Hardware: VPForce Rhino, FSSB R3 Ultra, Virpil WarBRD, Hotas Warthog, Winwing F15EX, Slaw Rudder, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Quest Pro
some1 Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 A 500lb Paveway IV https://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=67373 Hardware: VPForce Rhino, FSSB R3 Ultra, Virpil WarBRD, Hotas Warthog, Winwing F15EX, Slaw Rudder, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Quest Pro
FSKRipper Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 Here are two pics with the control indicator, while having 1 single Mk-83 on the outer wing pylon. Straight and level. This does not seem excessive to me. If I had a real harrier stick with real forces and curves set to zero it would be even less of a problem. Other than this, according to the NATOPS parts in a previous post, there should be a wing drop tendency at more than M 0.8 (something like Mig-15 simulates well, if you have that module. Also the F-86). I've never experienced it with the AV-8. I can pull 12 degrees AoA at Mach 0.85, no control problems, none of the effects described there. Now that is a missing FM feature. +1 Regarding the asymetric load I would support this finding. Flying 450 kts and dropping a 500lb bomb is barely noticable. People saying the Harrier almost stalls when pickling a bomb overdo things way too much. Dropping a 2000 pounder at 200kts is another story but I would doubt any real Harrier pilot tried this and can tell about it. i9 9900K @ 5,0GHz | 1080GTX | 32GB RAM | 256GB, 512GB & 1TB Samsung SSDs | TIR5 w/ Track Clip | Virpil T-50 Stick with extension + Warthog Throttle | MFG Crosswind pedals | Gametrix 908 Jetseat [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Holbeach Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) The way I read it, the Harrier pilot is talking about flying with an asymmetric load (a common practice), not about dropping 500 lb off the end of 1 wing. Flying at 400 kts S&L and dropping a bomb from an outer pylon produced a slight wing drop, which was easily corrected with trim, then the aircraft flew as the pilot described. .. Edited February 8, 2019 by Holbeach ASUS 2600K 3.8. P8Z68-V. ASUS ROG Strix RTX 2080Ti, RAM 16gb Corsair. M2 NVME 2gb. 2 SSD. 3 HDD. 1 kW ps. X-52. Saitek pedals. ..
shagrat Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 The assymetric wing roll has bugged me since release. Dropping a MK83 for example can make the plane roll steeply and nearly uncontrollably. And even when you trim it to level flight, pulling any G's will induce a roll again. I just can't imagine this is the case in the real thing and I've never experienced a stores-induced roll this badly even in F-16 sims when launching the heavy HARM (which does induce a roll, but it's very controllable and trimmable).One big difference between the F-16 and the AV-8B is the Fly-by-wire. Loosing a weight of some 1,000 lbs in a heartbeat should definitely affect the roll axis. I can compensate quite ok, if I anticipate the drop, but in a unequal loadout configuration, after a misbalance of 1,000 lbs plus drag difference, the aircraft is no longer supposed to handle like a perfectly balanced weapon... And I think someone else mentioned already, but you usually drop dumb bombs in pairs IRL. Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VPForce Rhino Base & VIRPIL T50 CM2 Stick on 200mm curved extension | VIRPIL T50 CM2 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)
TheKardinal Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 I dispute that. While I agree the FM in general is good, and the hover effect is really well made. - There are still issues with uneaven loads! No jet that behaves like DCS Av-8B does would be put into service as it is too dangerous. I drop one measly Mk82 and the whole airframe turns into something that is a really uncomfortable and difficult to fly. The effect is greatly overdone and should be tweaked/fixed. I have noticed some roll movement when launching from the Harrier, and it is pronounced, but the Harrier is relatively light compared to the weight of its internal fuel and externally carried weapons. The mk82 bomb is light compared to other bombs but, if you dropped it on your foot I don’t think you would describe it as measles. Moreover, if that 500lb lump is on one of your outboard pylons the rolling moment created when it falls off will be signifcant - you don’t mention what pylon it was dropped from but maybe your most adverse observations were perhaps if you are dropping single bombs from outboard pylons. Finally, I am a former Royal Navy helicopter pilot, and one of my mates crashed his Harrier because he miss managed his internal fuel. The centre of gravity limitations of a Harrier are obviously very restrictive because he managed to exceed them, lose control and eject without dropping any weapons. Harriers are twitchy and unforgiving.
FSKRipper Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 The way I read it, the Harrier pilot is talking about flying with an asymmetric load (a common practice), not about dropping 500 lb off the end of 1 wing. Flying at 400 kts S&L and dropping a bomb from an outer pylon produced a slight wing drop, which was easily corrected with trim, then the aircraft flew as the pilot described. .. Oh I'm fully aware of it. I only posted my findings because 2 or 3 mates in this thread seem to nearly experience a departure from controlled flight when dropping a bomb (see page 1&2 or even the citation in the post above this one) and see this as the most serious FM issue. i9 9900K @ 5,0GHz | 1080GTX | 32GB RAM | 256GB, 512GB & 1TB Samsung SSDs | TIR5 w/ Track Clip | Virpil T-50 Stick with extension + Warthog Throttle | MFG Crosswind pedals | Gametrix 908 Jetseat [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
some1 Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 And I think someone else mentioned already, but you usually drop dumb bombs in pairs IRL. Nope, at least not the Harrier pilots in Afghanistan, I explained it several posts above. Btw, 500lb bomb dropped from the outer pylon should have similar effect on the airframe as 1000lb from the inner pylon. Half the weight, but twice the arm length. Hardware: VPForce Rhino, FSSB R3 Ultra, Virpil WarBRD, Hotas Warthog, Winwing F15EX, Slaw Rudder, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Quest Pro
Nealius Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 Nope, at least not the Harrier pilots in Afghanistan, I explained it several posts above. Btw, 500lb bomb dropped from the outer pylon should have similar effect on the airframe as 1000lb from the inner pylon. Half the weight, but twice the arm length. And those were typically balanced out with a targeting pod and a GBU12 that they didn't drop....
some1 Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 I think you're looking at the wrong photo. They hung two symmetrically at the outermost pylons. Btw, found an interresting photos, though it may be a test of some sorts. These are 2000 lbs on inner pylons and assymetric 500 lbs on the outer pylon. Hardware: VPForce Rhino, FSSB R3 Ultra, Virpil WarBRD, Hotas Warthog, Winwing F15EX, Slaw Rudder, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Quest Pro
shagrat Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) Nope, at least not the Harrier pilots in Afghanistan, I explained it several posts above. Btw, 500lb bomb dropped from the outer pylon should have similar effect on the airframe as 1000lb from the inner pylon. Half the weight, but twice the arm length.Dude, you need to understand the difference between dumb and smart bombs, all you where talking about, were Laser GUIDED Bombs/Paveway (laser and GPS) and JDAM... SMART bombs! These you drop from safe altitude, with no hard maneuvering. DUMB bombs are usually dropped in pairs. As for the photos, if you have read the books a couple are taken from you should know, the Hunter configurations, with the TGP, use the LGB as counterbalance and rarely dropped them because of the induced roll and imbalance. The Killer with two small(!) Mk-82 based LGB or one LGB/ one JDAM, usually dropped from high altitude, anticipating the drop, counteracting and trimming, while the Hunter lased the target. Also notice the "bags", the fuel tanks, look at your airspeed when dropping etc. It all adds up to a lot of factors. As others said before: if you follow pretty much real world procedures and parameters, you should be fine and can handle induced roll quite ok. Edited February 8, 2019 by shagrat Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VPForce Rhino Base & VIRPIL T50 CM2 Stick on 200mm curved extension | VIRPIL T50 CM2 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)
mvsgas Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) Ok Folks, I not smart, So I am loosing who is saying what here. So, who agrees with OP? Flight model is bad an I can be bother to read and learn how to fly the aircraft. Who is saying the flight model seem to fit the information available to us? I approve this message:thumbup: JaBoG32_Herby, Appreciate you input, you have more knowledge on the subject than most of us. For example, I do not hold any rating and I am no pilot. I used to fix aircraft, never flew them. HWasp, I still not sure if you are saying the FM is missing things or not. Do you have a track showing the behavior you describe? Some1, Thank you those photos. I wish we can find some of the AV-8B N/A since I do not know the differences between the aircraft. N/A itself has many variation with different engine and other configuration. With that said, here is a track with the loadout you provided as possible in DCS. Since no 2k lbs class bomb was there I used 4xGBU-16, two empty fuel tanks and one GBU-12 on station 7. I attempted the same slow speed departure. Track was made in Open Beta ver 2.5.4.26825, in the Caucasus. I took off, the two slow speed departures and landed. I keep pulling to many AOA and forgetting to set the throttle to idle at 100 knot, but the aircraft behave predictably as far as I can tell with my untrained eye. [ATTACH]204100[/ATTACH] Edited February 8, 2019 by mvsgas spelling To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
shagrat Posted February 8, 2019 Posted February 8, 2019 Ok Folks, I not smart, So I am loosing who is saying what here. So, who agrees with OP? Flight model is bad an I can be bother to read and learn how to fly the aircraft. Who is saying the flight model seem to fit the information available to us? I approve this message JaBoG32_Herby, Appreciate you input, you have more knowledge on the subject than most of us. For example, I do not hold any rating and I am no pilot. I used to fix aircraft, never flew them. HWasp, I still not sure if you are saying the FM is missing things or not. Do you have a track showing the behavior you describe? Some1, Thank you those photos. I wish we can find some of the AV-8B N/A since I do not know the differences between the aircraft. N/A itself has many variation with different engine and other configuration so. With that said, here is a track with the loadout you provided as possible inm DCS. Since no 2k lbs class bob was there I used 4xGBU-16, two empty fuel tanks and one GBU-12 on station 7. I attempted the same slow speed departure. Track was made in Open Beta ver 2.5.4.26825, in the Caucasus. I took off, the two slow speed departures and landed. I keep pulling to many AOA and forgetting to set the throttle to idle at 100 knot, but the aircraft behave predictably as far as I can tell with my untrained eye. [ATTACH]204100[/ATTACH]I approve this message ...though HUD symbology and ARBS functions are a different story and definitely WIP. Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VPForce Rhino Base & VIRPIL T50 CM2 Stick on 200mm curved extension | VIRPIL T50 CM2 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)
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