Spotting Distance... again

[SharpeXB]

IMO the best way to improve visibility is to vastly increase the contrast of aircraft against the background, to appear much darker against a bright blue sky, basically a silhouette. Same goes for planes against the ground, although it would be more challenging to render because of various brightness levels and color of different textures.

Aircraft and vehicles already have a really good level of contrast in the right situation, against clouds or sky or even the water. Nevada is a particularly good map to see other objects against because it’s so barren.

But of course there will be low contrast situations where that won’t be the case. That’s normal.

[wilbur81]

You say as though you're the first person in the history of flight sims to go ''I CANNAE SEE'' @@ This is a ''every two weeks'' topic, and each time the person acts as if it's a novel idea =)

 

@samich

No, what I'm saying apparently went right over your head.

 

I said the FoV people typically use for navigation is too zoomed out, making distant objects appear even smaller. The solution is to zoom in to a more reasonable FoV when scanning for distant targets.

 

The issue is the FoV the player is willfully choosing to use. There is no magic fix on ED's end for what is a player's deliberate choice.

 

 

No, spotting is not the same in game as it is in real life... because the FoV being used is the equivalent of having eyes in the back of your head. Anything over approximately 50-60 degrees is ''too zoomed out'' for true to scale. Easy concept to grasp, but the people complaining about it either A. Don't understand or B. Stubbornly cry ''muh immerzion'' and want Enlarge-O-Vision 9000 to compensate for their foolish notions of what is or isn't ''realistic''.

 

Zhukov,

 

Seriously, do us a favor and please consider leaving this particular thread. Your opinion has been stated ad nauseam. We get it: you don't have issues with spotting. By the way, Eagle Dynamics are so good at what they do, they don't need your defense on this. This brilliant company is not insecure. They look at the constructive criticism and can deal with it without your input, thanks.

Edited March 16, 2019 by wilbur81

[SharpeXB]

I have no where near the same problems spotting in other Sims and I'm very clearly not alone in this

There are player in every flight sim that complain about this same issue. There’s no way to satisfy everyone.

[OnlyforDCS]

because the FoV being used is the equivalent of having eyes in the back of your head. Anything over approximately 50-60 degrees is ''too zoomed out'' for true to scale.

 

You've just made the case for improving visibility and spotting in the game.

[samich]

I accept that every sim sees a degree of complaints of this nature but you must agree that dcs is the hardest of all of the major Sims by quite a margin and in my opinion is difficult to the point of it detracting from the realism of the game

[Mars Exulte]

Zhukov,

 

Seriously, do us a favor and please consider leaving this particular thread. Your opinion has been stated ad nauseam. We get it: you don't have issues with spotting. By the way, Eagle Dynamics are so good at what they do, they don't need your defense on this. This brilliant company is not insecure. They look at the constructive criticism and can deal with it without your input, thanks.

 

Do YOURSELF a favor and put me on ignore if all you want is an echo chamber of opinions like your own. Something something public forum, ya know? Truth hurts, I know, and nobody likes hearing their ''problem'' is self inflicted, but hey, that's life.

 

@OnlyforDCS

It has nothing to do with needing ''improved spotting''. It's a fact of ALL games (Arma, etc included) that if you zoom out farther than 50-60 degrees the ''scale'' is too small. The solution is not to magically enlarge objects or limn them in neon ''hey stupid I'm over here'' the solution is to reduce your FoV under certain conditions... like... scanning for this ''jester says there's a target in front of me but I can't see it because I'm too zoomed out''. That scroll wheel is a complicated device, but is indeed the source of both the problem and the solution.

 

@Samich

It's just like every other sim I've played, as far as I see. The difference is the distances and speeds involved are greater. In a WWII sim the aircraft move slower and are generally much closer together. In jets, they move 3-4x as fast and a dogfight is spread over miles instead of a few hundred yards.

Edited March 16, 2019 by zhukov032186

[msalama]

That scroll wheel is a complicated device, but is indeed the source of both the problem and the solution.

 

Well, you've got to admit there's just the tiniest grain of truth in this statement ;)

 

That said, my biggest pet peeve is the interim LOD level objects disappearing and then magically reappearing as you get closer. This has been a problem for years already for me and if there's a fix, I've never heard about it. Is this a problem for anyone else?

[OnlyforDCS]

that if you zoom out farther than 50-60 degrees the ''scale'' is too small. The solution is not to magically enlarge objects or limn them in neon ''hey stupid I'm over here'' the solution is to reduce your FoV under certain conditions... like... scanning for this ''jester says there's a target in front of me but I can't see it because I'm too zoomed out''. That scroll wheel is a complicated device, but is indeed the source of both the problem and the solution.

 

 

I don't use the scroll wheel as I have TrackIR, with that said I do have ZOOM in and out bound on my HOTAS as it would be practically impossible to fly and fight without it in DCS as you have so eloquently pointed out.

 

Your solution to "just zoom in" is not a solution at all, it is a band-aid that we are forced to use in WVR, if we are to have any chance of seeing anything at all outside of the cockpit. Even then it works sporadically unless you happen to be looking at exactly the right spot. Please note Im talking about close ranges of one to two miles, not something at the extreme edge of spotting distance.

 

We like to espouse the realism factor of DCS, how realistic is it to apply binoculars to your vision every time you need to see out of your cockpit?

[samich]

That would be a workable argument if not for the fact that warplanes exist in dcs and spotting is usually sighted as a significant problem when compared to il2.

 

What about games like falcon bms? Spotting is inarguably easier in that and it's jets

[wilbur81]

Do YOURSELF a favor and put me on ignore if all you want is an echo chamber of opinions like your own. Something something public forum, ya know? Truth hurts, I know, and nobody likes hearing their ''problem'' is self inflicted, but hey, that's life.

 

Nice. :-)

 

Msalama,

 

Your point about LOD's being inconsistent is something I've wondered about. Sharpe had a good point about my own spotting issues due to my having MSAA set to '0'... but the LOD thing seems like an interesting thing to look at, too.

[Mars Exulte]

We like to espouse the realism factor of DCS, how realistic is it to apply binoculars to your vision every time you need to see out of your cockpit?

 

It isn't ''applying binoculars''. Quite the opposite, as I've mentioned you're STARTING too zoomed out effectively, so you're operating with ''reverse binoculars'' (if there is a term for such a thing, I don't know). ''Zooming in'' isn't actually ''zooming in'' (to a point) but returning your FoV to something resembling normal again. It's less of a bandaid fix imo than making things magically larger.

 

@samich

BMS uses dynamic models, in other words making distant objects appear larger than they really are. In essence if object is four pixels wide, render it eight pixels wide, thereby being easier to see. DCS used something similar at one point, which they say the new rendering engine can't do (why I don't know, but it's what they've said).

 

With aircraft, it is less noticeably ''wrong'' due to lack of comparison, but when you see tanks in the distance the size of small apartment buildings, or buildings the size of small counties overlapping highways etc, it quickly becomes ''bizarre''.

 

 

@wilbur

LoDs themselves ARE an issue sometimes. There was a case where the (MiG-21 I think?) would literally vanish at a certain distance. As in ''visible... then not visibile... then visible again''. That's not really a DCS issue though, the 3d model itself had a missing stage in it causing it to disappear. It's been fixed since then.

[samich]

I agree the imposter system was flawed, nobody wants 2 mile wide tanks :)

Your whole point about the view starting too zoomed out and then zooming in to match your normal vision (minus peripheral) is exactly the thing we're all talking about. It's unrealistic when compared to a real pilots vision and some vision enhancing should be put into the game to allow us to play with the information a real pilot would have and help us circumvent hardware limitations.

[Huilque151]

what´s the best graphic setting to make this more easy for us ?

can somebody tell us? regards.

[Gladman]

I long for the days ED gives us back object sizing.

[SharpeXB]

Hate to put it this way but if you all can’t figure out how to play a 3D game on a 2D screen then perhaps flight sims aren’t for you. There isn’t a magic solution for it. Learn to use the FOV in the game like everyone else does or just turn the labels on.

And the endless complaining and bugging the Devs about it gets old.

[pepin1234]

main time in Mig-19 I do dogfight against bombers. the only way to practice cannons. Even though is barely spotted anyway. No mention I am forced to use F10

[msalama]

Well, this LOD thing has been broken for years, if not since the days of BS v1.0 already. Would love to see a fix myself, since spotting difficulties per se have never been a peeve of mine; if the enemy's any good, you SHOULDN'T be able to spot them immediately anyway.

 

This from a viewpoint of a dedicated groundpounder, though. Ye fighter pooks may well disagree, and most likely will ;)

Edited March 16, 2019 by msalama

[bell_rj]

I find the arrogance of those who continue to insist that I and others shouldn't have a problem with spotting to be verging on trolling. Please desist. You may not have a problem with spotting, and I am pleased for you, but I do.

 

If the debate irritates you then simply don't read the thread. You need to realise that we are all different, play this game differently, and sometimes have problems that others won't.

 

If I was the only person reporting an issue then I would be willing to conceed that the problem is at my end. A few minutes reading on this site and other forums confirms that I am far from alone.

[bell_rj]

Hate to put it this way but if you all can’t figure out how to play a 3D game on a 2D screen then perhaps flight sims aren’t for you.

That's a little patronising. I've been playing flight sims since before Chuck Yeager's Air Combat and SWOTL - that was way back in 1991! In fact, I used to play Apache on an Amstrad PCW 9512 before that - an interesting experience but still cool even on a green screen. So I can probably figure out how to play a 3D game? And that's just me, I suspect that many other people reporting the issue may also have a little flight sim experience? Just a hunch...

[Tippis]

There isn’t a magic solution for it. Learn to use the FOV in the game like everyone else does or just turn the labels on.

 

Actually there is, and it's long-established and well-known as anyone with any long-standing familiarity with flight sims will tell you. FoV isn't even a factor in this, and while labels work as a solution, it's suboptimal, hacky, and subject too all kinds of mission and server vagaries to the point of being non-viable in many cases.

[Mars Exulte]

I find the arrogance of those who continue to insist that I and others shouldn't have a problem with spotting to be verging on trolling. Please desist.

 

If the debate irritates you then simply don't read the thread.

 

If the comments irritate you, don't read them, cupcake. This is a public forum. You can't post on it and expect only people who agree with you will reply. I don't see anything even remotely approaching trolling here. A bit of sarcasm, but aside from the usual dissenting opinions everyone is being fairly civil. Slather some lotion on your chapped bits and cowboy up, or you're going to have a hard time on the internet...

[Marcq]

The trouble with this topic is that most of the “spotting” problems people have are the result of gameplay habits, inadequate hardware or the wrong settings. Or just unrealistic expectations. Devs can’t solvle any of that.

 

I personally experience great visibility in this sim. I can see and identify other aircraft very well.

 

 

X2

 

Marc..

[bell_rj]

@zhukov032186 "Cupcake" - Was that necessary?

 

Telling people that they don't have a problem is strange when you cannot know if they do or not. As I said, you may not have the issue, but others surely do. It merely sounds as though you are trying to dismiss people rather than actually engage them in conversation.

 

But rather than focus on your name calling (because that's how threads get locked) let's get back to spotting. I am hoping that ED will comment on it, as the last comment I can find is from NineLine about 6 months ago.

 

The other open question, and a good one, is from Huilque151 who asked what the best graphical settings. Any constructive input on that matter might help others.

[Mars Exulte]

I'm pretty sure some of the people in this thread have ''a problem'' alright, I'm just not sure it's got to do with DCS =D Look at this way, every time somebody comments, it bumps the topic. It's like free publicity =)

[NineLine]

First, its not as easy it might seem, even solutions in games made 20 years ago aren't necessarily going to work right now. 20 years ago, the type of hardware out there and the difference from one person to the next was a lot less. The person playing with a 4k resolution playing on a 24 inch monitor vs the same resolution on a 42 inch isn't seeing the same thing.

 

So one solution for User A might not be right for user B, and now you will say, make it optional, but there are many many more users than A & B, and there are many more variables, VR, monitor size, graphics cards, personal vision ability.

 

And let's also remember that spotting shouldn't be easy, in the sense that you should be able to pick up a fighter 5 miles under any condition. It's just not true. You can cherry pick a scenario where you can spot a place farther than that, but there are also scenarios where you could lose sight of an aircraft in combat when you are within 1 mile of them. Spotting is a trained skill, as well, don't mistake spotting for identifying because that is a whole other thing.

 

Things like contrails and other such indicators can be improved as well, but the balance has to be performance. Its why things like Vulcan are being investigated, to give more overhead to allow more information to be passed, because even beyond the eye-candy, DCS is moving a lot of code at any given time, more so than anything you want to compare it to, but that is why we love DCS, because of all that stuff it gives us beyond anything we played before. We are looking at other visual cues, such as reflections, better draw distances on certain effects, ect. But again... there is such little wiggle room from making a sim playable to turning it into a slide show short of the newest hardware on the market.

 

LODs are important and need to be consistent, that can use some work in some cases. The label system has seen some work, and could still be better, but if you haven't tried the labels just using the dots, then you really need to. ED is working at improving visuals at distances but within the constraints of simulating real life and taking into account all variables.

 

Final word, stop fighting with each other, this thread highlights what I have said, there are many different people with different setups and abilities here, and finding solutions to cover all of that, again isn't as easy as it might seem. What seems like the right answer to you doesn't mean it is the right answer to the next guy, that doesn't mean either of you is wrong.