wondering if I'm doing something wrong with my CASE 1

[smallberries]

So I'm practicing Case 1 using the Alerax mission, 14,000 lbs of fuel otherwise the plane is clean. My trimming out needs work ofc, but following Victory's tips as best I can I aim for on-speed at about 10 degrees nose up, which gives me roughly a speed of 150 knots. Good enough, but to stay at that 150 knots on-speed I am not much short of full mil power with the speedbrake full, flaps full, properly dirtied up, DLC on. Which means when I turn at the 180 I have to pretty much go full mil and I am finding it nearly impossible to turn sharply enough to not be long in the groove, without sinking too fast. As it is, I'm often using DLC through a lot of the turn just to manage my decent rate because if I try adding enough power to do it I'm bound to hit full mil, and have the DLC and speedbrake retract.

 

Which makes me have to ask, why is it necessary to keep the speedbrakes out? Why not just use the engines to moderate your speed on the downwind? I'm trying to learn to do things the proper way but I guess it seems like it would be easier to let the speedbrake in so I had enough available power to manage my decent rate.

 

Of course, I know what Maverick would do, but I'm trying really hard to do the right thing

:P

 

P.S.

Edited April 14, 2019 by smallberries

[Larkis]

1. Use DLC only on final for minor adjustmens.

 

2. In the groove dont do more then 30 degrees. You can see thet an the analog horizon right of the green display.

 

10degres up also sound a lot. Try between 5-8 degrees. Maybe that helps.

[lucky-hendrix]

I too find that in the turn to the groove I have to raise poser so much that I often retarct the speedbrake by accident

 

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[smallberries]

Yeah, the only reason I'm using DLC before the groove is because I am trying not to end up in the drink turning final.

[Larkis]

So you push DLC up then all the time? Sound something other dont work.

 

Did you check your wings? Some tutorials say you should sweep them back, in the break, do bleed more airspeed. But after the break you should put them back on auto.

[smallberries]

Yeah, they're on auto below 300 kts. If you forget to sweep them forward you'll need more than mil power and a prayer to keep aloft below 300 kts.

[WindyTX]

You are too heavy try 4000lbs

 

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[Dino Might]

You are too heavy try 4000lbs

 

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4000 lbs clean is quite light.

I've run into the same problems and ditched the weapons/pylons/etc. and even at about 5500 lbs totally clean, I'm almost at mil turning onto base and still going from on/overspeed to underspeed pretty quickly. This is with full airbrake, DLC, flaps, gear.

 

What I'm having an issue with is the automatic retraction of DLC at mil - totally upsets things. I wish there was a CB I could pull to stop that from happening.

[RaisedByWolves]

Why are you landing with 14000 lbs of fuel?

[TonyG]

3-5000lbs of fuel, and on speed should be 15 units AoA. 10 units is not correct, 12 or 19 units are not correct. Fly it by the book.

 

Max landing weight is somewhere around 54,000, 14,000 on board will definitely put you over that.

 

There is a lot of information in Victory’s thread on how to land this thing correctly, I wouldn’t be trying to reinvent the wheel or listen to incorrect advice on how to fly it. (Like using 5-8 units AoA)

[WindyTX]

If you see the upper green chevron you are slow.

 

Not correct technique but in a Sim you can't feel the aircraft so it's harder to anticipate the increase in power required as you start the final turn. I fly slightly red (donut and red preferably) until I roll out in the groove then ease it back to on speed as I correct into the groove.

 

The current flight model on speed is close to the wrong side of the drag curve, when you get the green chevron you are on the wrong side and need a load of power to counteract the increased drag this then stows the speed brakes and dlc and gives you an unstable pattern.

 

Try the pattern slightly hot as I say not strictly correct but we aren't all Navy Pilots .

 

 

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[smallberries]

TonyG, 10 degrees nose up =/= 10 degrees AoA. Victory is who referenced the (roughly) 10 degrees nose up, for the record.

 

14000 lbs of fuel, clean, is just how that mission starts, and it seemed to me that, while it's a lot of fuel, since the plane is otherwise completely clean, it wasn't too heavy but maybe you are right on that.

 

P.S. I was surprised to find that 14000 lbs. of fuel alone does put the cat over its maximum landing weight. Dry weight is 41800 in DCS.

Edited April 15, 2019 by smallberries

[viper2097]

Fuel max for a clean trap is 10.400lbs if I'm correct.

And yes, it is a BIG difference in the flight model if you approach with 2000lbs or 14000lbs...

[Nealius]

In addition to the weight issue others mentioned, I found it much easier for me by stowing the speedbrakes after gear down, and not using DLC.

[smallberries]

Thanks to everyone for the advice, I learned something about max weight today xD.

 

But part of my original question lingers, and Nealius brings it up, does anyone know why it's procedure to fly with the airbrake out (well I'm sure Victory does)? Why not ease back on the power and stow the speedbrake to land? The only thing I can think of is that it helps to arrest the cat when you trap, but is it that much?

[Larkis]

The Tomcat is a plane which wants to fly with that big wings fold out. So sometimes engines on idles is not enough to get enough sinkrate to get down on the planned position.

 

So you are on final with 17kn (land runway), you putt your throttle to idle to get on 150kn for glideslope. But the plane just said "nope" and glide over half of the runway until it loose enough speed to go down.

 

With Speedbreaks you drop speed very fast with idle engines. So you could control the sinkrate much bether and the plane react much faster on changes on the throttle.

[smallberries]

Thanks for that. Maybe when I start flying underweight I'll see what you mean ;)

[Nealius]

One theory I've heard about speedbrake usage--and it's not limited to the Tomcat--is that if you need to do a go-around or waveoff it's much easier (safer?) to simply stow the speedbrakes and increase power since you're already at a high RPM, as opposed to being at a very low RPM, pushing the throttle up, and smacking into the end of the boat because your engines didn't respond to the throttle in time.

 

I wonder if that theory is part of why the Tomcat's speedbrake is automatically stowed at MIL power?

[Strikeeagle345]

In a clean tomcat, you can land with a max of 9,440 lbs of fuel. You are landing to heavy.

 

[Victory205]

Landing with speed brakes extended is to put turbojet and especially turbofan engines in a more responsive range for precise glide slope control.

 

Do the landings correctly or your bad habits will come back to haunt you as the module continues to develop. Quit looking for shortcuts, put in the work.

[VampireNZ]

Also noticed that you have to be super careful when trapping anywhere close to max weight at the moment, as your throttle range is usually pretty high and any larg-ish corrections bangs into the MIL range and instantly say goodbye to SB and DLC, and a stable approach lol. Frantically jabbing buttons and sliders on stick and throttle to get it all hanging out again while jamming the nose down :joystick:.

 

But I believe the slow speed handling isn't quite dialled in yet as Windy says, very close to the drag curve.

 

 

Rest-assured thou - I am 'putting in the work!'

[Wizard_03]

This may seem obvious to others, but I had to adjust my throttle curves, the default 0 curve results in not enough travel in upper region for adequate GS control (with TMW) I was having the exact same control problems in the OP I could push all the way to the stop and still not reach Mil. I only noticed this when it was pointed out to me that my air-brake and DLC should retract at Mil. Must have missed it in NATOPS :doh:

 

 

Once I adjusted the curves to match my physical throttles I had much more control over power and the engines felt very responsive. I went from getting to slow all time and hitting one wires over and over, too being fast all the time and hitting four wires or getting over the top WOs repeatedly... lol But that I can fix! :)

 

 

Long story short check your curves.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Wizard_03

[Larkis]

I personally had a curve from 16 on my throttle as a normal axis. The high precise area is in the center of the throttle where i need that precise movement for air to air refueling or the final landing.