PK-3 Gun Pods damage against infantry?

[tsb47]

Is there a bug with the PK-3 gun pods?

 

When I hose infantry groups with it, they get eg 1% damage. That doesn't seem realistic.

 

If a person gets hit anywhere with even a single round of 7.62, they are going to be out of action. If the hit is center mass or head, the person would be dead. They might survive a hit on the limbs, or extremities, but they would be pretty badly wounded - probably combat ineffective.

 

Can someone shed some light on this?

[xvii-Dietrich]

I don't know, but a few things sprang to mind.

 

 

1. I wonder how it compares to other 7.62 cal rounds fired with other aircraft? I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but perhaps there is something else which could be used to do a similar test? That at least would confirm if the problem is the infantry or the PK-3.

 

 

 

2. DCS has a long-term on-going programme to upgrade the damage model. Although it is still a long way off from completion, it may be that this will be improved in future.

[tsb47]

I'm sorry I don't know how the Pk compares against others 762. I don't own any such aircraft. Hopefully someone else can come in on that?

 

Looking forward to further Ed updates to damage model

 

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[msalama]

In my experience they've been very ineffective for a long time already. It's probably a bug, since you really can't kill anything with them.

[Faxx2]

Have they fixed this yet?

[3WA]

Sounds like your typical weapons "balancing" you get in FPS games.

 

 

Make it Real ED!

[msalama]

typical weapons "balancing"

 

Nope. The guns are broken, not "balanced".

[Hammer1-1]

The UH-1H M134 minigun IIRC is a 7.62mm round and it takes infantry down fairly easily. Also dont have a big problem with destroying light armored tanks and APCs with them either. Is this 7.62 warsaw ammo 7.62x39 or 7.62x54?

[Svsmokey]

Nice point and good question ! But even 7.62x39 ought to take down infantry . Trucks as well . The round has a AP penetrator core .

[Slazi]

Interesting thread. It got me to do some science.

 

I put an E-3A up in the sky to see how many 7.62 bullets were needed to bring it down.

 

In one attempt, 1400+ rounds and it was still flying. It tends to go down after around 1200ish usually. If you aim for the engines, it will drop faster.

[Eldur]

Attacked some trucks just a few days ago with those... the dmg log sais it all.

Was able to kill them though, but it needed a good, probably ~2s long burst out of 4 pods with a good aim to get there.

[msalama]

Hmmm... So they're not completely broken but actually do something after all. But how about the efficacy? Well it's a low-caliber pod so I don't know...

[Fri13]

You have infantry on ground?

 

How about using rockets like anyone should be using?

 

If you have trucks, jeeps and other unarmored vehicles, then you can use those cannon pods.

 

But to use anything small caliber is just waste of time if you can't hover and just spread.

[tsb47]

No. The 762x54R used in the PK is a full calibre round. At the rate those pods fire it should decimate infantry. As noted above, other similar calibre weapons in dcs do.

 

 

 

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[some1]

You have infantry on ground?

 

How about using rockets like anyone should be using?

 

How about you read the thread before commenting next time?

 

It's mostly just DCS damage model, the units don't have actual damage model but rather healthbars. Doesn't matter if the bullet hit the driver in the forehead, it still reduced the overall truck health by 3% or some other value, and you need dozens of those bullet to hit in order to drop the unit health considerably and register a "kill".

 

Also, looking at shell_table.lua, the 7.62 ammo used by UH-1 minigun has a very high weight. It's 3 times heavier than PKT ammo, and closer in weight to 30mm shells defined in this file than anything else. Looks like either a typo, or a deliberate change to make the UH-1 guns more efficient.

 

shell("PKT_7_62", _("PKT_7_62"), {
 model_name    = "tracer_bullet_red",
 v0    = 855.0,
 Dv0   = 0.0082,
 Da0     = 0.0004,
 Da1     = 0.0,
 [color="red"]mass      = 0.0096,[/color]
 explosive     = 0.0000,
 life_time     = 7,
 caliber     = 7.62,
 s         = 0.0,
 j         = 0.0,
 l         = 0.0,
 charTime    = 0,
 cx        = {1.0,0.62,0.65,0.175,1.8},
 k1        = 2.9e-08,
 tracer_off    = -100,
 scale_tracer  = 1,

 name = "7.62",
 
 cartridge = 0,
});

shell("M134_7_62_T", _("M134 7.62"), {
 model_name    = "tracer_bullet_red",
 v0    = 930.0,
 Dv0   = 0.0082,
 Da0     = 0.0004,
 Da1     = 0.0,
 [color="Red"]mass      = 0.0296,[/color]
 explosive     = 0.0000,
 life_time     = 7,
 caliber     = 7.62,
 s         = 0.0,
 j         = 0.0,
 l         = 0.0,
 charTime    = 0,
 cx        = {1.0,0.62,0.65,0.175,1.8},
 k1        = 2.9e-08,
 tracer_off    = 3,
 scale_tracer  = 1,
 scale_smoke	= 0.5,
 smoke_opacity	= 0.25,
 smoke_particle = 0.5,
 
 name = "7.62",
 
 cartridge = cartridge_308cal,
});

Edited July 16, 2019 by some1

[Fri13]

How about you read the thread before commenting next time?

 

 

I read it, and at least I understand that you are suppose to use rockets in area effect against infantry.

 

In reality the infantry will hide and seek cover, you are not going to be more efficient than a infantry itself firing against each others, actually even less efficient because you are not as accurate as infantry is with single fire.

 

It is true that you get higher velocity when firing from aircraft flying 350km/h toward ground, or helicopter flying 110km/h, compared to soldier stationary.

But the soldier can put one bullet to 20cm target from 300m range, as they can put 10 of 10 to that same 20cm target.

 

You in other hand in the aircraft, you have difficulty to hit anything in 20cm target sizes other than luck. But you can saturate a large area quickly, kill a whole squad in tight formation (for some reason) by surprise.

 

But any sensible pilot would use rockets for area effect, increasing change to kill by blowing whole hectare out at once.

 

And you are not going to have in that than one change, as likely there is MANPADS already aimed at you.

If you are helicopter, you are going to take fire from 500-600m distance and you do not want to be there in your plastic bubble when squad or worse, platoon opens fire at you, from few LMG to few dozens AR shooting at you.

 

And those things are not simulated in DCS because it can't even give conditions to that, as from air you are not going to see any single soldier on the ground of they are not on the desert. You are going to fire on visual surroundings like "that tree formation there" instead anything else.

 

Why you carry rockets and you launch salvo in the area and be done with it.

 

To have the low damage is as well simulating the cover infantry would have, that would render in reality the such gunpods less effective because you have so small caliber.

 

There is reason why even BTR and BMP has 20-30mm cannons, as high explosive cannon shells are far more effective against infantry than LMG/HMG.

Why Soviets opted at least 14.5mm caliber because it went through any APC from any direction compared 12.7mm.

Why MBT has 7.62mm LMG as coax because you have no recoil, and having crazy optics with laser ranging makes MBT MG as full auto sniper with extremely deadly effect as you can just aim and fire burst with full effect on anything you see through thermal.

 

Nothing like that you can do with LMG or minigun on such light aircrafts.

[some1]

I read it, and at least I understand that you are suppose to use rockets in area effect against infantry.

 

Yet you've failed to realise, that we're discussing the overall very low damage output of PK-3 pods in DCS, compared to other weapons in game.

[Fri13]

Yet you've failed to realise, that we're discussing the overall very low damage output of PK-3 pods in DCS, compared to other weapons in game.

 

Yet you fail to understand that I don't deny that... Only bring up their real life ineffectiveness why rockets are used against infantry if you don't have HE shells.

 

There is reason why 23-30mm cannons are used instead 5.56-7.62mm.

 

Even the SAW is found to be too ineffective to kill a infantry, as the bullets go through enemy participants and they can shoot you.

You put 50 rounds through them and they shoot you... Not so great stopping power.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Fri13

[mkiii]

There are a good many dead soldiers that will attest to the stopping power of a 7.62 rifle round. They do depend somewhat on the case /charge dimensions, but even a short round like that used in an AK cannot be compared to a 5.56mm round. I don't think that anyone has survived being hit by 50 rounds of 5.56mm. Where is this coming from?

[msalama]

Where is this coming from?

 

From an orifice having zero sunshine hours per annum.

Edited July 19, 2019 by msalama

[Svsmokey]

From an orifice having zero sunshine hours per annum.

 

:megalol: