WINWING F/A-18C HOTAS 2019.9.30 RELEASE

[Wmacky]

Great. I'll check out twitch again after work! I didn't think to check there for some reason

Edited October 15, 2019 by Wmacky

[MilesD]

To eager maybe, but only because so many people asked for the stream and only because the pre-sale is going to end pretty soon here and those people wanted to try and save some $$, and I cant blame them this is a pricey product. I dont mind making mistakes, I also don't mind making a fool of myself. I rarely read directions on most things (I learn better this way... call me weird for it). Typically I break out the instructions when I get stuck ... as seen in this stream ;)

 

I don't think "to eager" I think it was a great perspective. You said it was an "un-boxing", not a "review", and it went above and beyond that. Un-boxing, adjustments, installation, and I assume flying, (the last parts for tonight). You did what 99% of us do with new toy, and you certainly didn't make a fool of yourself. The real time challenges that you faced were what we all would have faced, and it's what kept me watching. I think if some of us spent a small portion of the the time we dedicate to reading how our virtual aircraft systems work, on our actual real world hardware, we would have a better experience with it.

 

I think Winwing also got a typical real world perspective of our SOP's when we get something new and shiny. Your stream should be required watching for their engineers.

 

My only complaint, get some hex drivers and throw away those crappy allen wrenches.:)

 

Thanks for your time, all 4 hours of it. Looking forward to watching the flight portion tonight.

[Dudikoff]

To eager maybe, but only because so many people asked for the stream and only because the pre-sale is going to end pretty soon here and those people wanted to try and save some $$, and I cant blame them this is a pricey product. I dont mind making mistakes, I also don't mind making a fool of myself. I rarely read directions on most things (I learn better this way... call me weird for it). Typically I break out the instructions when I get stuck ... as seen in this stream ;)

 

Sorry, I wasn't criticizing, just stating my impressions from the stream to point out that this approach certainly has its advantages.

 

Nothing wrong with not reading a manual; it might take longer, but at least you learn something.

[Jabbers_]

My only complaint, get some hex drivers and throw away those crappy allen wrenches.:)

 

Thanks for your time, all 4 hours of it. Looking forward to watching the flight portion tonight.

 

Hah, i have some, but wanted to use the tools they provided to ensure it was all there and feasible for assembly.

[Bullant]

Thanks for the live stream Jabbers, apart from the bit where we were all yelling at you that you had the throttle mounts wrong it probably went exactly the way it would for any one of us who just received our new toys, although mine would have been plugged in a lot quicker ;)

 

I'm a little confused about the "fix" for the throttle handles hitting each other. Is not the L/R sync option a way of "locking" the two throttles together ala the warthog? Or is it something completely different?

 

My summary after watching is that the throttle looks fantastic, jury is still out on the stick.

[WINWING]

The stick seems to need a lot of fine adjustment between the spring combinations, the different cams, the offset adjustment (my term...), and the clutch. So i didnt wanna conclude anything last night on that aspect. Need more time to understand and get things sorted here.

 

 

 

 

I understand your probably teeth grinding about my approach. I get it. But I stated multiple times that I needed more time to understand it. I have 2 other gimbal bases that have similar cam setups and I understand the mechanics within them a bit so it wasnt overly complicated. The only that was new to me was adjusting the cam position after the spring was loaded in, not something needed to be done in the 2 other sticks I have. I will spend more time figuring this out though, I'm sure we can solve the issues I was encountering (which are likely all on my side)

 

 

 

 

This was not WINWINGS request.

 

 

 

 

Thanks and also hats of to WINWING for jumping in the stream and giving me guidance when I got off track, it was appreciated.

 

 

Yup, totally unplanned though so that would have been tough to do. I am going to try and put together a Skype call with ALEX at some point to clear things up with the cams and springs ;)

 

 

First of all, very very thanks for Jabbers 4 hours long time working!!!! Especially very hard in middle night. Full thanks from winwing.

 

About the CAM we still not decide which for default, even in this time we have a vote for streamers, 3 choice hard, 5 choice soft.

 

We have different choice but not decide:

1.Hard x+hard y with different spring, this is mostly like the real aircraft,most aircraft have different force in X/Y.

 

2.Soft x +hardy with different force, I was told this is most like the F18, we can not confirm in china :)

 

3.Soft in both x/y, this is most like the current joystick force, for example x52/tm a10, very suitable for experience pilot whom has used other joystick.

But our soft cam(now version, we can develop new) have very very little detent in mid if adjust to the best situation(if not adjust in good situation, the detent will became big)

 

4. If both soft center without little detent, the design will have a dead zone not matter how we adjust, so we give up this kind of CAM, if you have interesting ,please see our introduce video of SUPER LIBRA, the V2.0 is such design.

 

 

Even, we can adjust the pitch not stand vertically, but hypsokinesis like some real aircraft!!! Real F18 is +76mm/-200mm in pitch axis, we can adjust to such performance!!!

 

About the spring, if pilot want the same force in extension/extension+z/just grip, the spring is different, because the arm of force is change. Pilots need to adjust the force first, after confirm which is best, then adjust the dead zone, finally install the shell. We will add this SOP in the manual.

 

 

I had a good idea, if we could guide jabbers in very short time, and Jabbers is willing, maybe he can do a camparison of different cam group for every one, we will accept his choice for the default deliver.

 

It's up to Jabbers.

[Bullant]

Thanks for being so engaged with the community, it was great to see you guys in Jabber's stream last night.

 

Moltar has just put his stick aside because it came with two sets of Hard cams and they are unflyable.

 

Please ship with a solution where there is no hard detent around center, it will make virtually all phases of flight terrible, and AAR/formation flying impossible.

[StandingCow]

Thanks for being so engaged with the community, it was great to see you guys in Jabber's stream last night.

 

Moltar has just put his stick aside because it came with two sets of Hard cams and they are unflyable.

 

Please ship with a solution where there is no hard detent around center, it will make virtually all phases of flight terrible, and AAR/formation flying impossible.

 

 

I have to agree here, most of us aren't space simmers... even if it means a delay please hold off until we can get soft cams included.

[sk000tch]

Winwing I want to love and buy this thing, especially the throttle. Going to watch jabbers now but from the posts here looks like you guys missed the profile a bit. Some advice as pilot and simmer who’s familiar with the real stick and the best VPC/Virgil have to offer:

 

Stop worrying about real plane forces unless you’re going to build a real stick with everything that entails. No matter what people here say, a) ifs not really possible with cams, springs/clutches, and 2) the forces appropriate when you are in a cockpit under G Are totally different than when you’re sitting at a desk. The 18c has what ~35 lb deflection force clean config at limit? That’ll rip the thing off desks, and unless you guys are planning on AOA feedback and deflection forces that increase with G then nobody wants 35 lb when refueling. what’s good for a sim isn’t necessarily what’s most accurate to real life.

 

Sim sticks need to be 1) Very precise at center for refueling, formation, etc. dead zones and hard detents are terrible, rebound with extensions crest pilot induced oscillations- also bad. Center detents aren’t realistic or good for sims, no plane, FBW or otherwise, has then unless there’s an autopilot system creating a breakaway force. Again, usually very light resistance against control rods or FBW system for minor inputs, regardless of speed. Soft & precise centers are key, beyond that user preference controls.

 

Hoe progressive forces are really has to be user choice. Thats why cam choices are key,

as it seems to take a couple cams plus spring options to accommodate everyone’s preferences. Unless you all have found a way to read airspeed and increase deflection forces accordingly, I dot see another way. It’s unfortunate that we have to have the same stick force in landing config as a 8G dogfight, but that’s what we got.m

 

I was impressed with the clutch in the vid but also worries, cams + springs = oscillation. Hands on it’s not a problem unless really bad. It’s not accurate, as there’s no rebound force when a real control surface is neutral, but we are stuck with the physics of cams and springs, no apparent wing and elevator size. with other gimbals removing it creates a trade off that’s too much damping, and not worth it.

 

What’s going on with the throttle though? It looked like you guys had it perfected. Big accurate trace, adjustable tension. Just include high quality buttons and 4-ways (force sensing slew as $250 option would be cool). I haven’t lid attention to the panels but so long as they do what they’re labeled to in DCS nobody can really blame you guys.

[SimHog]

...

Sim sticks need to be 1) Very precise at center for refueling, formation, etc. dead zones and hard detents are terrible, rebound with extensions crest pilot induced oscillations- also bad. Center detents aren’t realistic or good for sims, no plane, FBW or otherwise, has then unless there’s an autopilot system creating a breakaway force. Again, usually very light resistance against control rods or FBW system for minor inputs, regardless of speed. Soft & precise centers are key, beyond that user preference controls ...

 

So much this ...

[Guram]

Don't worry, we have auto-test more than 10 thousands push through to AB, no little damage, high quality structure.

 

Hey, Winwing when are you planning to send out our per-orders? how much longer to wait?

[WINWING]

Winwing I want to love and buy this thing, especially the throttle. Going to watch jabbers now but from the posts here looks like you guys missed the profile a bit. Some advice as pilot and simmer who’s familiar with the real stick and the best VPC/Virgil have to offer:

 

Stop worrying about real plane forces unless you’re going to build a real stick with everything that entails. No matter what people here say, a) ifs not really possible with cams, springs/clutches, and 2) the forces appropriate when you are in a cockpit under G Are totally different than when you’re sitting at a desk. The 18c has what ~35 lb deflection force clean config at limit? That’ll rip the thing off desks, and unless you guys are planning on AOA feedback and deflection forces that increase with G then nobody wants 35 lb when refueling. what’s good for a sim isn’t necessarily what’s most accurate to real life.

 

Sim sticks need to be 1) Very precise at center for refueling, formation, etc. dead zones and hard detents are terrible, rebound with extensions crest pilot induced oscillations- also bad. Center detents aren’t realistic or good for sims, no plane, FBW or otherwise, has then unless there’s an autopilot system creating a breakaway force. Again, usually very light resistance against control rods or FBW system for minor inputs, regardless of speed. Soft & precise centers are key, beyond that user preference controls.

 

Hoe progressive forces are really has to be user choice. Thats why cam choices are key,

as it seems to take a couple cams plus spring options to accommodate everyone’s preferences. Unless you all have found a way to read airspeed and increase deflection forces accordingly, I dot see another way. It’s unfortunate that we have to have the same stick force in landing config as a 8G dogfight, but that’s what we got.m

 

I was impressed with the clutch in the vid but also worries, cams + springs = oscillation. Hands on it’s not a problem unless really bad. It’s not accurate, as there’s no rebound force when a real control surface is neutral, but we are stuck with the physics of cams and springs, no apparent wing and elevator size. with other gimbals removing it creates a trade off that’s too much damping, and not worth it.

 

What’s going on with the throttle though? It looked like you guys had it perfected. Big accurate trace, adjustable tension. Just include high quality buttons and 4-ways (force sensing slew as $250 option would be cool). I haven’t lid attention to the panels but so long as they do what they’re labeled to in DCS nobody can really blame you guys.

 

Dear,

Thank you very much for you suggestion, very useful and give us confidence about how to do default!!! I think I have answer now, but for no mistake to all user, I want to confirm by more like Jabbers.

 

Really really thank you for your suggestion.

[memoric]

@Jabbers

 

 

What would you recommend? Soft or hard center?

 

 

Thank you very much!

[sk000tch]

Dear,

Thank you very much for you suggestion, very useful and give us confidence about how to do default!!! I think I have answer now, but for no mistake to all user, I want to confirm by more like Jabbers.

 

Really really thank you for your suggestion.

 

My pleasure hun ;)

 

It was not my intent to come across as a singular voice of the community. Many here have followed the development of your product much closer than I have, or have already pre-ordered, etc. I have no skin in the game, though I do have high hopes for your product.

 

My perspective is somewhat unique as I fly a non-FWB center stick (mechanical control rod linkage) during the day, and sim DCS with a cam/spring/damper stick in the evening. But I am somewhat new to flight sims, so I should hardly be considered an expert in sticks (though I've bought/played with a bunch).

 

Looking at your website, it looks like you guys have done a lot of work simulating 172s and diamonds. Your comment about different forces in different directions makes me wonder if perhaps your expertise on that side of aviation is creeping over into this design. I thought I saw in a video you had equal forces in each direction, but just in case the 1:2:4 standard force ratio doesn't apply here. A hard center on pitch axis with a 10lb breakout is ideal on a 172 but would be a total disaster on the Hornet.

 

The critical design criteria are 1) Adequate (adjustable if extensions) centering force to reliably center the stick, and 2) zero breakout and low deflection forces near center. A soft center is fine but a plot of force vs deflection angle should not show any significant bump at center on either axis. You can have pitch a little heavier than roll if desired, or push a little heavier than pull to reduce pilot induced oscillations, but ideally those are user adjustable. Cam choices are nice as how progressive force increases is user preference. Breakout, or a sticky center, like you would have with a yoke is a non-starter though.

 

Again though, definitely wait for more opinions, I've seen some of the youtube guys vids and though not all are created equal, most I'm sure will say the same. Or you could go try to plug a 4-inch probe in 24" basket at 250 kts and see for yourself.

 

Fortunately it looks like a very well engineered product, so presumably an easy fix.

Edited October 16, 2019 by sk000tch
accidentally a word

[Bullant]

 

Unboxing from Magz.

 

Interesting stuff for me was at the end, regarding the panel switches all binding out of the box without the need for the winwing software.

[Waxer]

Back to the cams thing. Aren't we getting all the cams in the order. I got my virpil cm2 base and it included all the cams in case you wanted to change them. Are we not getting the same with the winwing? For this price, I hope so

 

Ditto. For the price of the HOTAS system it is crazy not to include both CAM options. It the customer is unhappy with 1 set of CAMs, to order a new set it is not just the expense of the CAMs but also another fee to DHL, FedEx, more customs fees and more handling fees. So something worth maybe £10 ends up costing the end user £60 or so.

[memoric]

Don't wanna be inpatient, but when are the pre-Orders are send out? Just ordered mine :).

Edited October 16, 2019 by memoric

[Jabbers_]

@Jabbers

 

 

What would you recommend? Soft or hard center?

 

 

Thank you very much!

 

Soft but I think even the soft cam needs some work atm, talked to winwing about it last night and explained what I think the issue is. Will have to wait and see what they can do, they have been amazing to work with so far, no hurt feelings very open and receptive to feedback a true pleasure.

[memoric]

Soft but I think even the soft cam needs some work atm, talked to winwing about it last night and explained what I think the issue is. Will have to wait and see what they can do, they have been amazing to work with so far, no hurt feelings very open and receptive to feedback a true pleasure.

 

 

Nice! Good to hear the want to make their product as best as possible!

 

 

Thank you.

[Jabbers_]

Here's a video of the soft cam in place with 2x heavy springs.

 

kd4VcIeRLds

[chaos]

Soft but I think even the soft cam needs some work atm, talked to winwing about it last night and explained what I think the issue is. Will have to wait and see what they can do, they have been amazing to work with so far, no hurt feelings very open and receptive to feedback a true pleasure.

 

What exactly is the problem with the soft and/or hard cams in your opinion? I wonder if your personal preference or rather, experience, is shaping your opinion. From what I gather, you’re a TM WH user. It’s well understood that the breakout force of that stick is rather heavy. I’ve tried the WH combo and I find it difficult to fly accurately with it.

 

Then again, I’ve used the CH flight stick and TM16000 combo which are extremely light on the controls so there’s that... All comes down to personal preference I think. I’d love for WinWing to add an extra set of cams to the package. Instant buy for me if they did...

Edited October 16, 2019 by chaos

[Jabbers_]

What exactly is the problem with the soft and/or hard cams in your opinion? I wonder if your personal preference or rather, experience, is shaping your opinion. From what I gather, you’re a TM WH user. It’s well understood that the breakout force of that stick is rather heavy. I’ve tried the WH combo and I find it difficult to fly accurately.

 

Its complicated, and I want to make sure I understand that my setup is correct before I get into that. I am not a WH user, just the grip. I use primarily a Virpil WarBRD base, and lately the VKB gunfighter base. The Virpil WarBRD base is a similar 2 cam setup, but different in that the cams dont split the load from the bearing but share it. Give me some time to make sure my thoughts on the matter are correct and I will produce a video explaining my thoughts, hopefully in the next day or two

[Jabbers_]

[Nagilem]

So Jabbers mentioned this will go back to preorder for a short time? I am interested in purchase. Is this true? If so, when? Can I order now and get the preorder pricing?

[Jabbers_]

So Jabbers mentioned this will go back to preorder for a short time? I am interested in purchase. Is this true? If so, when? Can I order now and get the preorder pricing?

 

We were told after the Chinese streamer does his review/first look... but not sure when exactly.