A Question For Those Who Own The Tomcat

[captain_dalan]

This is an honest question. I own the Hornet and was going to buy the Viper. I also own and love the WW2 planes. I'm the type who likes to specialize on one plane and learn it well.

 

For those who own the Tomcat and also the Hornet will be even better. Tell me why I should choose the Tomcat to specialize in?

 

I welcome all opinions.

 

Thanks.

 

First to get this out of the way, i own both the Hornet and the Tomcat. I also own and have at least a few flight hours in the F-16, Harrier, Mirage 2000, F-5, Viggen, all the FC3 planes, the Huey, the F-86, the MiG-15 and finally i got the MiG-19 on the last sale.

 

That being said, let me reference my colleagues first:

 

If you like A2A, why not consider the M2000? Seems like a good A2A plane.

 

While i like the Mirage, and she just got a brand new (and well deserved) facelift, she's got nothing on the F-14. Now don't get me wrong, she IS a beauty. And she is a performer. She flies well and she can hold her own against all of the planes currently present in DCS......just like Tomcat can. But.....she is a FBW plane. As such, she does feel like she's on rails. Add to that then in A-A, she is still limited to FOX 1's and FOX 2's.

 

Hornet challenges:

 

1. Remembering the avionics management steps required at any given moment to accomplish the mission

 

2. Fuel!

 

3. Energy/AoA management - it's easy to get slow very quickly in the Hornet thanks to the carefree handling but not so easy to get fast again

 

4. Throttle response - or more accurately lack thereof! The lag between your demand for more power and the downright laissez-faire attitude with which the Hornet responds is the most challenging part of getting back aboard the boat

 

 

Tomcat challenges

 

1. No G-limiter - flight control systems will not restrict your surface displacements to keep the jet within structural limits. Ham-fistery, particularly at higher airspeeds will be rewarded with many broken things...

 

2. High AoA handling - you'll soon discover what those pedals down by your feet are for! And fighting years and years and years of instinctively ingrained behaviour by trying not to use any lateral stick when attempting to accomplish rolling manoeuvres above 18 units AoA will definitely bamboozle you!

 

3. No AMRAAM - used to breaking defensive away from your target when your Slammer goes pitbull in a medium range fight? Not any more! If you're outta Phoenixes, then you'll be throwing Sparrows and you gotta track that sumbitch all the way in....

 

4. No stand-off Ground attack - when you're A2G in the Cat you're more likely to be in the WEZ of the ADAs at your target. Better plan your attack axis carefully and/or coordinate with friends

 

5. You are the system integrator! No SA page in the Cat, so you have to reference the radar/RWR and keep the threat picture mentally (though the datalink and ground stabilised TID helps...)

 

6. AWG-9 - at the one moment a powerful and indispensable ally and at others a frustratingly limited and expensive piece of ballast; know and understand what it's good at and colour your tactics to make the best of it (i.e. don't point it towards mountains looking for that low level pop-up group AWACS just called and expect to see owt..)

 

7. That's One Big Pussy, or "I Taut I Taw a Puddy Tat!": most of what you face A2A is smaller than you and harder to see; you, on the other hand, are flying something with the lifting area equivalent to two tennis courts. If you lose sight of him, he ain't lost sight of you!

 

8. In(ish) the Groove: Hornet goes where your velocity vector is pointed; the Cat goes where it's inertia is taking it. No secondary surfaces will move automatically to keep the plane going where you pointed it; flying down to the carrier this really shows and requires deliberate but precise coordinated control inputs when making corrections cos it is super easy to over do it and end up looking like a tribute to Cougar's freaked-out approach from the Topgun movie.

 

That said, I like the Hornet but I love the Tomcat. Must be a masochist!

 

A long post, but a well detailed one, so i couldn't bring myself to snip it. But, i'll try to summarize it:

Why NOT to get the F-14:

-you like modern avionics and feel restricted or just not having fun flying without them

-you like FBW and all the safety and carelessness that it provides

-you like SLAM's, Harpoon's and other stand off ordnance

-you like SEAD-DEAD

 

Why TO get the Tomcat

-you like hands on approach to flying (warbirds and old jets)

-you like having major feedback on how you handle your plane

-you like carrier ops (obviously)

-you like the high challenge - high reward approach of mastering a weapon system

-you just like the da*n plane!

 

Personally, i never regretted it. Heck, it's why i joined DCS. All the other modules (except for the Harrier) i got to support the developers, both ED and the 3rd party ones.

 

Hope this helps! Cheers :thumbup:

Edited November 23, 2019 by captain_dalan

[BuzzU]

Thanks for the post Captain. To be honest, I like both types of planes. To many years flying the Viper and warbirds has shown me that. This decision has become more of a struggle than I thought.

[captain_dalan]

Thanks for the post Captain. To be honest, I like both types of planes. To many years flying the Viper and warbirds has shown me that. This decision has become more of a struggle than I thought.

 

Then perhaps a more utilitarian answer is in store? Right now the F-16 (i didn't mention it in my post above, i do own it as well- editing the post now) is very bare bones. Like others have mentioned, it got released with much less features then the Hornet did when it came out (i pre-ordered both). As both the F-16 and the F-14 are only available on full price, and if you are only willing to pay for one fully priced module, then maybe this can help you??

 

The F-14 while not feature complete, is largely fully functional. Especially in SP and in MP with a human RIO. The F-16 isn't. And although i think (and expect) it will receive updates at a rate faster then the Hornet did, it may take at least a few months before it reaches some kind of functional parity with the other DCS modules.

[Kula66]

First, I love the Tomcat - I own almost all the DCS jets, but fly it most of the time. It is great fun to fly and from my armchair pilot point of view is only missing a few critical radar features, the primary being auto-TWS, which unfortunately creates an issue with multi-target BVR - the Tomcats forte; I'm sure this will come when ED sorts out TWS.

 

My only major concern is that given the current and future blocking of 'reach back' functionality (no radar controls and removal of TP controls), and inevitable and understandable limitations of Jester, you will only be able to get the best out of the jet in BVR with a human RIO. This is a luxury that many will not have and for me, this is looking like the 14 will be limited in serious play to BFM - a great shame.

[flameoutme]

The 14 was GREAT in the original Top Gun. The 18, featured in the new Top Gun trailer, like all sequels won't be quite as good as the original.

 

On a serious note, one thing that is extra special about the 14 is the afterburner, just by itself or especially when run through a bass shaker like "The Buttkicker". The 18, I have to be honest, the only way you know it's in after burner is the fuel flow. Within the cockpit it sounds the same mil power or after burner. Not so in the 14. The low frequency rumble still gives me chills whether running the buttkicker or not.

 

Said another way - the 14 gives you the feelings, not just the data. If you feel the need to feel the speed, go with the '14.

Edited November 24, 2019 by flameoutme

[gabuzomeu]

Just one thing: only the Tomcat has a tape player, with a copilot joking about your performance.

Soul vs computers.

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

As a noob I gotta say, for all the hoopla about the fantastic cinematic Jester voice overs. It is literally annoying as shit to listen to watching training videos. I can’t imagine listening to that on an actual flight. My plan is get the feel of the “sim” with FC3 then “study” the F5.

Like the old school feel of the plane without diarrhea mouth screaming “sam break left” every 3 seconds. It’s literally like having my mother inlaw in the cockpit! “CLOUDS!! Break right “ That said the F14 looks like a hoot. Would love to see a hi fi Russian bird by the time I figure out how to fly the basics. In time I’m sure. Good luck with your choice!

Edited November 24, 2019 by Mr. Big.”Biggs”

[BuzzU]

As a noob I gotta say, for all the hoopla about the fantastic cinematic Jester voice overs. It is literally annoying as shit to listen to watching training videos. I can’t imagine listening to that on an actual flight. My plan is get the feel of the “sim” with FC3 then “study” the F5.

Like the old school feel of the plane without diarrhea mouth screaming “sam break left” every 3 seconds. It’s literally like having my mother inlaw in the cockpit! “CLOUDS!! Break right “ That said the F14 looks like a hoot. Would love to see a hi fi Russian bird by the time I figure out how to fly the basics. In time I’m sure. Good luck with your choice!

 

I have to agree. I've watched a lot of Tomcat videos trying to get a feel for it. I was annoyed by Jester every time.

[Nexus-6]

I own the Hornet, but not the Viper.

 

The F-18's capabilities are very impressive. It's served it's masters very well.

 

But I gotta say, one of the coolest things I've experienced with the modules I own is looking back over my shoulder in a hard turn and seeing those enormous wings sweeping forward.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[BuzzU]

You should give Tyson credit for your sig quote.

[Nexus-6]

You should give Tyson credit for your sig quote.

Pretty sure everyone already knows it wasn't me who said that first.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[CommanderRabb]

I have to agree. I've watched a lot of Tomcat videos trying to get a feel for it. I was annoyed by Jester every time.

 

Jester: "Sink rate is too high!" - While trying to concentrate on low level flight.

Jester "Missile Missile Missile, Break Right!" - When Jester sees a missile launch anywhere in 10 miles...lol.

Me: "Shut up Jester!!"

 

Here's another reason to value the Tomcat.

 

 

Although it has the awful AIM-7 missiles. You almost always have a few Phoenix missiles. Whereas with the Hornet you are often put into missions where you are stuck with garbage Sparrows that miss more often than not and which make the Hornet missions very aggravating.

Edited November 25, 2019 by CommanderRabb

[r4y30n]

What is it that makes the Sparrow garbage? (Honest question)

 

I’ve only used them once myself and I think my misses were likely fired below minimum range. That said, one fired on a hot target around 10 miles actually lost lock halfway there, reacquired in flood and got a kill, that was pretty cool.

[CommanderRabb]

What is it that makes the Sparrow garbage? (Honest question)

 

I’ve only used them once myself and I think my misses were likely fired below minimum range. That said, one fired on a hot target around 10 miles actually lost lock halfway there, reacquired in flood and got a kill, that was pretty cool.

 

It requires a radar lock all the way to the target, which puts you in a very dangerous position against anything remotely modern. Often misses, especially at 10 miles range or more. Flood mode is unreliable.

 

 

It's not that I've never hit anything with it. But it's very inconsistent.

 

Their real life performance statistics were apparently pretty bad too. Something like 25% kill rate in the Gulf War.

[BuzzU]

Make your own missions and don't load them.

[CommanderRabb]

Make your own missions and don't load them.

 

I did (like swapping Hornet with Tomcat). But that's cheating. It only counts if you did the mission as prescribed by the maker. In any case I found ways to work around the problem and ultimately prevailed. But it doesn't change the fact that it's still a pretty lousy weapon.

[BuzzU]

Save them for when the guy you're fighting runs out of missiles. :)

[BuzzU]

OK, i'm going to get it. A couple of questions.

 

What did ED use for music when choosing the Tomcat for a theme? Top Gun?

 

In looking at the HOTAS I see few switches and buttons. Do any of you use just that many for realism? Even if you don't get the VKB F-14 stick.

 

One more. Can I get a sexy babes voice for a RIO? :)

[VC]

In looking at the HOTAS I see few switches and buttons. Do any of you use just that many for realism? Even if you don't get the VKB F-14 stick.

 

There are a few things you have to map that are not on HOTAS in the real thing, because they aren't clickable and in fact you can't even see the switches due to where they are. I'm talking about the PAL/VSL-HI/VSL-LO switch and the canopy controls.

 

The flap lever is very annoying to click and drag because it's obscured by the throttles. I don't want to be staring at that console while turning downwind, or worse accidentally shutting off the left engine instead of pulling the flaps down. So I have flaps mapped to an axis.

 

There's also a rocker switch to select which fuel tanks the quantity displays. It's a "hold down" and it's on the opposite side of the cockpit to the gauge, so you can't conveniently click it and look at the readout at the same time. Map that too.

 

Other than that, I tried my best to keep it realistic but I ended up mapping the ACM cover to my HOTAS because that's something you need to flick quickly under pressure while potentially looking over your shoulder. Clicking it requires an unrealistic amount of concentration when IRL it's a massive switch that would undoubtedly be a muscle memory action. And boresight mode switch.

[BuzzU]

Ok, thanks.

[CommanderRabb]

Save them for when the guy you're fighting runs out of missiles. :)

 

In any case they seem to work better below 8 miles range and with a substantial lead on the target. To be fair, when they do hit, it's almost always a KO.:)

 

I've actually had some success with them in the mission Ode To Mongo.

[Dino Might]

I have the 14, 16, 18, and almost all the others. I'm biased in that I think the 14 is the most beautiful aircraft ever built. That being said, the 14 is a pure joy to simply fly around. The first time loading it up with another person in back, and I turn around to see him, and he sees me, i just about lost myself in giggling glee. Details like the pilot models moving their shoulders and heads in a realistic manner, the cockpit shake with AoA, speed, and g variation, the absolutely amazing flight model...it all comes together in a module that is like no other currently in the game. The 14 is fun. That's my reason for getting it, flying it, and building my simpit around it.

[IronMike]

What did ED use for music when choosing the Tomcat for a theme? Top Gun?

 

 

ED didnt choose that, Meteor wrote the soundtrack for us (btw I believe it is the only aircraft in a sim today that comes with its own soundtrack.)

 

GUI themes for their aircraft are chosen by 3rd part devs themselves, not ED in general. ED chooses the ones for general and their own modules.

 

Here is one track example, altogether the album consists of 10 tracks.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by IronMike

[Psyph3r]

Tomcat's Multi-role Badassery!

 

...Tell me why I should choose the Tomcat to specialize in?

 

I welcome all opinions.

 

Thanks.

Honestly, it's what many have said:) It has a lot of power, maneuverability and gives you great feedback in one great package of multi-role goodness! I have many modules, but the F-14B is my go-to. The F-14 is one of the few aircraft that can do great self-escort missions.:pilotfly:

I've seen mention some of the things that jester wasn't able to do... yet.

 

A couple examples of things to come:

- More realistic ability of Jester in using radar

- More Jester commands for specific radar functions

- Jester will be able to use the Lantirn Pod for some great LGB fun when solo

- much more, etc..

Check out this link to show some of what's planned:worthy:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=251618

 

Take note that although it's great A2A, it is actually very good for A2G. It was called the Bombcat for a reason ;) You can do ccip and ccrp. It doesn't have all the homing A2G armament of it's newer offspring, but it's still a good bombing platform. It can carry a lot of armament and with plenty of fuel to boot!

 

P.S. There is/will be a little less shaking (AoA shaking has or will be adjusted) and you can turn off Jester's voice for now, if you really want to ;) If the plane's Stick is in the way of the TID you can hit backspace to remove it, as well :)

P.S.S. We just got a nice big update with more to come :D

P.S.S.S. @IronMike, please correct me if any of this is wrong :D

Edited November 30, 2019 by Psyph3r
additions

[Pally]

Wish I found this thread earlier. Well, why the Tomcat you asked? Oh, "here we go again [ . . .]". May I galdly vouch for the case of DCS Tomcat? Yes, I will gladly.

 

It is a icon that features two crew playable tandem seats! I liked the Falcon (Viper) for it's insane turn radius and turn rate, also the Hornets user friendly cockpit, and then also the Spitfire and Mustang's nostalgic feel; however, which modules allow two players to occupy a workspace, or gaming moment, simultaneously? None other then the Tomcat. You get to fly as a paired crew in a single cockpit. More to that, correct me if I am inaccurate, Heatblur's work in this Tomcat paved new way to implement two crews module. So iconic fighter aside, lady's and gents, you got fly and fight--not just along side, but back to back--with an online crew member. It is a heck of an experience! (To be honest here, due to time constraints, I could not do online hops, yet).

 

Flight model is another reason. I have read of this analogy several times, that the Tomcat is like a muscle car, and that it has no qualms letting the pilot to fly it way out of parameters, even to get him or herself in deep trouble (departure to lawn dart).

 

"[. . .] the airframe shook like mad, and the flight controls momentarily locked up. The RIO in the back screaming 'shxt, shxt, shxt...'. I was greying out fast. The Radar Altimeter read 100 ft AGL (above ground level) and Airspeed Indicator showing +550. There, I was two or so seconds from terrain impact at the bottom of a Split-S to avoid a pair of arcing and proportionally navigated SA-15s headed for US. We beam and spilt them, and survived strong. All there was left were their smoke trails lingering in the air, both of which arced to the ground. Those things were angry, but WE--were ANGRIER. The RWR now lit even more bright like a Christmas tree on a December night, but no worries, Noel, because 'We Get Ours At Night'. So, yeah, they can bring it."

 

So, yeah, there is no famous "Bitxhing Betty" calling "Pull Up, Pull Up", nor "Flight Controls, Flight Controls". What is given is the AOA indexer, and airframe buffet as parameters feedback. Backseat Jester does help, sometimes, or he'd punch out early if he could (and to that, he did). ;)

 

Moving to the Air to Ground experience. If you are familiar with the term and procedures for CCIP and CCRP, then you will find the Tomcat fit fine for the former, but a bit awkward in the latter. The Tomcat CCRP equivalent is the Computer Target mode, for which to work it requires you to self designate an impact point by means of slewing the targeting diamond up and, or down along the bomb fall line (BFL). There are ways to use waypoint set up to assist with seeking out an exact target, but nothing like the gimzo enjoyed from the Hornet. These may seem to be limitations that are a deal breaker to be the AG experience, but perhaps those very limitations gave way to our deeper appreciation to the two-crew operations before the arrival of the next-gen Hi-Tech systems so had us spoiled. (Be awesome to have an F-18D... just say'in.)

Be awesome if we can lock up a ship from the AWG-9 and then launch a Phoenix to it, or that to employ JDAMs. May we ever be so lucky. ;)

 

Words are not enough. So I will step aside, and let the videos below to paint an even better picture of this powerful, majestic, and iconic DCS module--The Heatblur F-14B.

 

Last but not least, that song in second video is part of the Heatblur's Defender of The Fleet album composed by Meteor, and can be found at Bandcamp. https://meteormusic.bandcamp.com/album/defender-of-the-fleet-heatblur-f-14-original-soundtrack, and per site, "[n]ote: If you already bought the Heatblur F-14 module you can get this album for $0USD, if not, please consider putting $1USD as minimum. Thank you!" So, yeah, a rocking soundtrack to go with an iconic module. That's a musical (literally) bow atop an awesome present!

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by Pally