MasterMode - 3-Way Switch

[Captain Orso]

The binds 'SMS_commands.AA_MasterModeSw' & 'SMS_commands.AA_MasterModeSw' appear to be bugged, or at least lacking in functionality.

 

I have a TM WH HOTAS. I assign 'Master Mode Button - A/A' to button 27 ("AUTOPILOT PATH"), and 'Master Mode Button - A/G' to button 28 ("AUTOPILOT ALT").

 

Clarifications for understanding the issue:

 

When clicking with a mouse button, as long as the button is held down, the "press" is asserted in the game. When you mouse-click on A/A or A/G, as soon as you initiate the clicking on the button, it is activated, and as long as you hold the mouse button, the in-cockpit button is seen to be depressed. So far so good. When you release the mouse button, the in-cockpit button is visually released, and the indicating light remains on as well as the mode, which is the way it ought to work. To deactivate the mode, click on the activated switch and it becomes deactivate. A keyboard key-press works exactly the same as a mouse click.

 

A toggle switch works like a light switch. In one state it is always on (asserted), and in the other it is always off (un-asserted). When you flip a toggle switch from un-asserted to asserted, it is the same as if you pressed and held a key on the keyboard. Flipping it back to the un-asserted state is like releasing a keypress.

 

Here's the problem.

I'm assigning 'SMS_commands.AA_MasterModeSw' to TM HW HOTAS Throttle button 27 ("AUTOPILOT PATH") and 'SMS_commands.AG_MasterModeSw' to TM HW HOTAS Throttle button 28 ("AUTOPILOT ALT").

 

Buttons 27 and 28 are part of the 3-way switch on the TM HW HOTAS Throttle. Flipped upward and 27 is asserted; downward and 28 is asserted; in the middle and neither is asserted.

 

Once bound as above, when I flip 27 to asserted, you can see that A/A is being pressed and held, as if a finger were pressing and holding it pressed as if it were a keypress. Flip it back to 27 un-asserted and it's like removing your finger from the A/A button - the mode remains on until pressed again or A/G Mode is pressed.

 

Were buttons 27 and 29 press-buttons or keyboard keys and not part of a switch, all would be fine, but they are not.

 

Solution:

We need a bind for A/A Master Mode and A/G Master Mode that accepts that when bound to a switch button, when the switch button changes states from asserted to un-asserted, or vice versa, the Master Mode button is pressed and released.

 

For reference, this is how it works in the Harrier with AG/NAV/VSTOL mode buttons assigned to the same switch.

[rob10]

I doubt you'll see it added since it is a pushbutton system in the RW Hornet (i.e. push to turn it on, push to turn it off, or push the other one to switch between them) rather than a switch (like the HUD symbology reject for instance). You might be able to play in the LAU files to make it do what you want. I wonder if you could set it to send the same keypress (either A-G or A-A) on both "press" (flipping to PATH) and "release" (flipping to ALT/HDG) so that it turns off the previously selected one when switching to the middle. I have mine set up to HUD symbology, but that has 3 states (norm, rej1, rej2) with separate binding so it's easy.

[speed-of-heat]

I do this in TARGET

 

// BOATSWITCH (AKA Mode Switch)//
	
	MapKey(&Throttle, BSF, PULSE+DX39);
	MapKeyR(&Throttle, BSF, PULSE+DX39);
	MapKey(&Throttle, BSM, PULSE+DX40);
	MapKey(&Throttle, BSB, PULSE+DX41);
	MapKeyR(&Throttle, BSB, PULSE+DX41);

 

and then map DX39 to A-A and DX41 to A-G.

[LeCuvier]

The F/A-18 mode buttons have a bit of logic behind them. When you select an A/A weapon on the weapon select switch, A/A is automatically selected, even if you had been in A/G mode. Also, if you are in either A/A or A/G mode, that mode is deselected when you hit the same button again. All that would not work well with a maintained 3-position switch like the AP switch on the TMWH throttle. You might have that switch in the A/G position and select an AIM-9 on the stick, and probably the mode would switch to A/A and now the switch position would be in conflict with the actual mode. etc. I would bet that ED will not implement that option and I would not critisize them.

[speed-of-heat]

actually this does work as intended because it is a pulse when pressed and a separate pulse when released, so the switch is not maintained, it is essentially using the 3way boat hat switch as a momentary with a separate single press for "pressing"

MapKey(&Throttle, BSF, PULSE+DX39)

and "releasing"

MapKeyR(&Throttle, BSF, PULSE+DX39)

it works exactly as it should :)

[Captain Orso]

I doubt you'll see it added since it is a pushbutton system in the RW Hornet (i.e. push to turn it on, push to turn it off, or push the other one to switch between them) rather than a switch (like the HUD symbology reject for instance). You might be able to play in the LAU files to make it do what you want. I wonder if you could set it to send the same keypress (either A-G or A-A) on both "press" (flipping to PATH) and "release" (flipping to ALT/HDG) so that it turns off the previously selected one when switching to the middle. I have mine set up to HUD symbology, but that has 3 states (norm, rej1, rej2) with separate binding so it's easy.

 

As I said, RAZBAM manages to do it with NAV/AG VSTOL master modes in the Harrier. I see no reason why ED shouldn't be able to do the same thing with the FA-18C.

[Captain Orso]

The F/A-18 mode buttons have a bit of logic behind them. When you select an A/A weapon on the weapon select switch, A/A is automatically selected, even if you had been in A/G mode. Also, if you are in either A/A or A/G mode, that mode is deselected when you hit the same button again. All that would not work well with a maintained 3-position switch like the AP switch on the TMWH throttle. You might have that switch in the A/G position and select an AIM-9 on the stick, and probably the mode would switch to A/A and now the switch position would be in conflict with the actual mode. etc. I would bet that ED will not implement that option and I would not critisize them.

 

It should be no problem, because DCS only pays attention to state changes of switches. Of course I will have to pay attention to the switch state if weapon activation changes it, but I don't see an issue with that either.

[Captain Orso]

I do this in TARGET

 

// BOATSWITCH (AKA Mode Switch)//
	
	MapKey(&Throttle, BSF, PULSE+DX39);
	MapKeyR(&Throttle, BSF, PULSE+DX39);
	MapKey(&Throttle, BSM, PULSE+DX40);
	MapKey(&Throttle, BSB, PULSE+DX41);
	MapKeyR(&Throttle, BSB, PULSE+DX41);

 

and then map DX39 to A-A and DX41 to A-G.

 

actually this does work as intended because it is a pulse when pressed and a separate pulse when released, so the switch is not maintained, it is essentially using the 3way boat hat switch as a momentary with a separate single press for "pressing"

MapKey(&Throttle, BSF, PULSE+DX39)

and "releasing"

MapKeyR(&Throttle, BSF, PULSE+DX39)

it works exactly as it should :)

 

Thanks for the replies, Stuartaston, but I don't use TARGET and I'm not planing on starting to use it for these two buttons.

 

Many thanks anyway :thumbup:

[nickos86]

"Captain Orso"'s principal point is super correct and I don't understand why ED don't do this easy, little adjustments... In comparison to the real world, we need to deal with bought HOTAS systems. There are plenty of them out there and each got it's issues.

 

Why not make multiple options for this switched and dials? Make a master mode switch like in the F-16, make the antenna elevation to work as absolute axis (simply because there is no like F-18 dial in the THRUSTMASTER WARTHOG or any other system)... Make our life easier here... What's the big deal? Its a small and quick investment of time to add it...

[speed-of-heat]

Thanks for the replies, Stuartaston, but I don't use TARGET and I'm not planing on starting to use it for these two buttons.

 

Many thanks anyway :thumbup:

 

No worries, and I understand, if I didn't use DCS I wouldn't use TARGET either, but, I just got tired of trying to hack lua files , and then having them unfix themselves at the next update etc... having done it, it does make this sort of problem "easy to fix"...

 

all the best :thumbsup:

[shagrat]

As I said, RAZBAM manages to do it with NAV/AG VSTOL master modes in the Harrier. I see no reason why ED shouldn't be able to do the same thing with the FA-18C.

 

Because the buttons in the Harrier have a different function.

Harrier has 3-Modes (VSTOL, NAV, A/G) + A/A, each commanded exclusively when a button is pressed, deactivating other modes and unselecting the button(s).

The Hornet has 3-Modes (A/A, A/G, NAV). Only A/A and A/G are commanded by the respective button. To select NAV you have to push the active button, again.

In addition selecting air-to-air weapons activates the A/A Master mode. When you do that the 3-way switch could be in A/G while A/A is active and thus the switch is no longer in sync with the simulated cockpit switch.

You can switch A/G on by using 3-way down and switch center, then down and center again to deactivate A/G and switch to NAV, same for A/A.

[Captain Orso]

Hi Shagrat, thanks for the reply.

 

Because the buttons in the Harrier have a different function.

8<

 

I'm certain I could live with a 3-way switch going out of sync. After all, if I switch it, it will be to the mode I require, and then it will be in sync again.

 

But you are getting too hung-up on the clickable cockpit graphics and functions. Remember, there is no spoon... er, cockpit. It's all just simulation through programs. It looks real, but it's an illusion, right?.

 

Since virtual pilots have many different controllers used for their HOTAS', and especially these days many fly with VR goggles and cannot see to operate a keyboard, one must expect that they require binds which allow them to implement the varied HW in which they may have invested hundreds of dollars (I'm no exception to this).

 

I have one of the most renowned HOTAS on the market, a Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS throttle and stick. I'm not asking for something to fit to some obscure piece of equipment from Tasmania. But even the TM WH HOTAS' possibilities run out very quickly, and inventing an ergonomic binds configuration is often difficult, especially when trying to harmonize different aircraft.

 

That ED could easily fulfill my request is demonstrated in the Hornet brake handle that it work easily with the mouse. They don't make you emulate the exact motion the Real-World™ handle has to make it work. Just scroll the wheel and left or right click and every function of the handle is at your fingertips.

 

If ED can manage that in concept and programming, I'm certain they could create a couple of binds for using with a 3-way HW toggle switch. It would be a piece of cake.

[rob10]

I'm certain I could live with a 3-way switch going out of sync. After all, if I switch it, it will be to the mode I require, and then it will be in sync again.

 

 

And there's the rub: YOU could live with it going out of sync. The unfortunately reality is ED would spend a bunch of time troubleshooting "problems" with the AA and AG modes that were caused by people not understanding that it could easily get out of sync. And then those same people complaining when it was explained how it worked and why it got out of sync that if ED was going to have it, then it should work properly and never get out of sync. And that is the reality of what would happen.

 

Honestly, you original post made me think about playing with the .lau files and seeing if I could get it to work for myself (it seemed like a good use of that switch). A previous poster pointing out that selecting an A-A weapon with the hotas would put you out of sync regularly made me rethink it.

As long as it's as easy as it is to mod things in the .lau files as it currently is, I can't blame ED for not expending the small effort to create this for the tiny benefit of having it vs the relatively large problems it would cause.

[Captain Orso]

And there's the rub: YOU could live with it going out of sync. The unfortunately reality is ED would spend a bunch of time troubleshooting "problems" with the AA and AG modes that were caused by people not understanding that it could easily get out of sync. And then those same people complaining when it was explained how it worked and why it got out of sync that if ED was going to have it, then it should work properly and never get out of sync. And that is the reality of what would happen.

 

Honestly, you original post made me think about playing with the .lau files and seeing if I could get it to work for myself (it seemed like a good use of that switch). A previous poster pointing out that selecting an A-A weapon with the hotas would put you out of sync regularly made me rethink it.

As long as it's as easy as it is to mod things in the .lau files as it currently is, I can't blame ED for not expending the small effort to create this for the tiny benefit of having it vs the relatively large problems it would cause.

 

Thanks for the reply, Rob,

 

I'm no hero when it comes to the Joystick\default.lua files, but I have done some modding. I couldn't find a fix for this issue, because the bind simply doesn't exist.

 

I understand your skepsis about inconsistent states, but the only solutions to avoid that 100% are, 1. only ever use the mouse to operate the buttons, or 2. force the user to buy a controller with at least 2 push buttons to bind to A/G and A/A. Nothing else that I can think of will ever work without the possibility of an inconsistency. If you have a suggestion, I'd be glad to hear it. I'm always happy to learn something new.

 

As far as having to explain the inconsistency to users, I personally would tell the users to contact their controller manufacturer to complain why their controller switches don't automatically flip to the proper state when weapon selection changes the master mode.... :D

 

But seriously, unless you're a bit on the dimm side of the intellectual scale, the situation ought to be obvious. Yes, I have met people who are that mentally challenged; I was in the military for three years and had at least one as a squad leader :doh:

 

In the end I have to ask, what is the alternative?

[shagrat]

Thanks for the reply, Rob,

 

 

 

I'm no hero when it comes to the Joystick\default.lua files, but I have done some modding. I couldn't find a fix for this issue, because the bind simply doesn't exist.

 

 

 

I understand your skepsis about inconsistent states, but the only solutions to avoid that 100% are, 1. only ever use the mouse to operate the buttons, or 2. force the user to buy a controller with at least 2 push buttons to bind to A/G and A/A. Nothing else that I can think of will ever work without the possibility of an inconsistency. If you have a suggestion, I'd be glad to hear it. I'm always happy to learn something new.

 

 

 

As far as having to explain the inconsistency to users, I personally would tell the users to contact their controller manufacturer to complain why their controller switches don't automatically flip to the proper state when weapon selection changes the master mode.... :D

 

 

 

But seriously, unless you're a bit on the dimm side of the intellectual scale, the situation ought to be obvious. Yes, I have met people who are that mentally challenged; I was in the military for three years and had at least one as a squad leader :doh:

 

 

 

In the end I have to ask, what is the alternative?

Using keyboard commands, works pretty well... NUM - and NUM +, PAGE up and PAGE down, or INSert and DELete, maybe simply 1 and 2 or Q and A seem like practical choices to me, as alternative to buying a button box. Thinking about keyboard/Button box I found the Streamdeck XL a fantastic solution to accommodate UFC / ODU and the other switches through the keyboard commands, as it can have unlimited profiles thus switch between aircraft, but also emulate multiple other stuff, like the jettison panel and station select, etc.

[shagrat]

Alternative solution: use TARGET to emulate a keystroke on the keyboard on the up and down position off the three-way switch, or DX Button presses...

[Captain Orso]

Using keyboard commands, works pretty well... NUM - and NUM +, PAGE up and PAGE down, or INSert and DELete, maybe simply 1 and 2 or Q and A seem like practical choices to me, as alternative to buying a button box. Thinking about keyboard/Button box I found the Streamdeck XL a fantastic solution to accommodate UFC / ODU and the other switches through the keyboard commands, as it can have unlimited profiles thus switch between aircraft, but also emulate multiple other stuff, like the jettison panel and station select, etc.

 

Did I say that I'm flying in VR? ... I'm flying in VR. Keyboards and banks of touch activated buttons are unfortunately not very good solutions.

[Captain Orso]

Alternative solution: use TARGET to emulate a keystroke on the keyboard on the up and down position off the three-way switch, or DX Button presses...

 

:cry: an additional software for an additional DIY solution for a simply issue to get a product to work with industry standard equipment... *sigh*

[shagrat]

:cry: an additional software for an additional DIY solution for a simply issue to get a product to work with industry standard equipment... *sigh*

They simulate the behaviour of the real life buttons. Use push buttons to replicate the behaviour of the real life buttons. The Warthog base has two (Actually 4 if you consider the Left and Right Engine Relight switches).

I doubt the devs will consider individual workaround bindings, that can easily break the functional behaviour of the controls.

Master modes require to push A/A or HOTAS ACM controls for A/A and A/G button for A/G. To enter NAV mode you need to press the active mode button again. A 3-way-switch with fixed ON-OFF-ON positions can't do that, unless you use TARGET to register the rise and fall flanks of the switch as individual actions or as I said switch the button ON than Center for each press of the mode buttons... that is the easiest way to get the result you look for, apart from simply using the push buttons on the base.

[feefifofum]

I certainly understand the desire to have complex systems behave exactly as you think they should, but do you understand how that's not really a super reasonable request? How it's not the normal or correct behavior of the aircraft, but a workaround for your specific situation?

 

For your specific situation, an additional software has been created to allow you to do pretty much any weird thing you can conceive to with the behavior of the HOTAS. If you don't want to use a 3pos switch for AA and AG master modes, return to center yourself with no function, and then press again in the desired direction to deactivate whatever mode you find yourself in when it's time to return to NAV then T.A.R.G.E.T. is available. Program return-to-center as pressing AA, AG, AG (or AG, AA, AA) and you'll return to NAV from whatever mode you're in. :thumbup:

[Captain Orso]

They simulate the behaviour of the real life buttons. Use push buttons to replicate the behaviour of the real life buttons. The Warthog base has two (Actually 4 if you consider the Left and Right Engine Relight switches).

I doubt the devs will consider individual workaround bindings, that can easily break the functional behaviour of the controls.

Master modes require to push A/A or HOTAS ACM controls for A/A and A/G button for A/G. To enter NAV mode you need to press the active mode button again. A 3-way-switch with fixed ON-OFF-ON positions can't do that, unless you use TARGET to register the rise and fall flanks of the switch as individual actions or as I said switch the button ON than Center for each press of the mode buttons... that is the easiest way to get the result you look for, apart from simply using the push buttons on the base.

 

Yes, ideally, an (On)-Off-(On) switch would work perfectly, or two additional pushbuttons . But I'm working with what I have, what hundreds... nee what thousands of people have, and that's On-Off-On.

 

My request doesn't brake anything ED hasn't already broke before. Look at the APU Start switch. I've got it mapped to the APU Start switch on my throttle. Works like magic, *flip* and the APU starts. Brilliant.... right engine start.... left engine start... 60 seconds later WTF!! In the cockpit the APU Start switch is suddenly... OFF!! OMFG! an inconsistency, and ED let me walk right into it! HOW DARE THEY! I'm going to inform Greta Thunberg!

 

Or extremer yet, I have the Left and Right Engine Crank switches mapped to the Pinky switch; Forward = Right Crank, Backwards = Left Crank. I flip the Pinky switch forwards and start cranking the engine up, and then I return it to the middle, but what's this sacrilege?! When I return the Picky switch to the middle, the right in-cockpit switch stays to the right!! (lots of feigned indignation etc. etc., I think you get the point).

 

When ED programmed these switched, they didn't give a damn about consistency, because the discrepancy is obvious and inconsequential. I wish to suggest that have a bind witch works with an On-Off-On 3-way switch would be greatly useful, and inconsistencies would be inconsequential.

 

Please ED give us this simple solution.

[Captain Orso]

I certainly understand the desire to have complex systems behave exactly as you think they should, but do you understand how that's not really a super reasonable request? How it's not the normal or correct behavior of the aircraft, but a workaround for your specific situation?

 

For your specific situation, an additional software has been created to allow you to do pretty much any weird thing you can conceive to with the behavior of the HOTAS. If you don't want to use a 3pos switch for AA and AG master modes, return to center yourself with no function, and then press again in the desired direction to deactivate whatever mode you find yourself in when it's time to return to NAV then T.A.R.G.E.T. is available. Program return-to-center as pressing AA, AG, AG (or AG, AA, AA) and you'll return to NAV from whatever mode you're in. :thumbup:

 

Because...

 

1. I've gotten by many years thus far without needing TARGET for anything, and I don't wish to have yet another thing to configure and maintain and start-up when I just want to fly

 

and

 

2. I think after paying this kind of price for a program, I ought to be able to expect the program to run on a well known controller with widespread use in the international community, without having implement an additional, foreign software and write my own programs to do so.

[shagrat]

Because...

 

 

 

 

2. I think after paying this kind of price for a program, I ought to be able to expect the program to run on a well known controller with widespread use in the international community, without having implement an additional, foreign software and write my own programs to do so.

 

So, you are saying people that have paid the same price, can ask for a specific support in the module for the brake handle with depressable hat-Switch to recognize left and right as movement of the handle while the button is pressed and on release pull push the handle, because they prefer that to the simple button?! Keep in mind all that, because they can't be bothered to use the Saitek, Virpil or TARGET software coming with there premium price devices, like the vendor of the stick intended?

As I said, I doubt they will do this. You did put the request, so let's see, what happens.

[shagrat]

The problem is, if they put it in the way you want, you need to carefully handle the switches...

A quick example: You switch it to ALT for A/G and leave the switch in down position. Now you activate A/A by use of HOTAS command, the switch remains in ALT (A/G) position, but the master mode is A/A. Now you switch the switch back to center and it recognizes another press of A/G activating A/G, again, yet the switch is in center position (ALT/HDG). Now to go back into NAV mode you can either switch up to A/A mode and back to center, or switch down to deactivate A/G and remember to switch to center, next time you need A/G... sounds horribly complicated and confusing, to me. :dunno:

[Captain Orso]

So, you are saying people that have paid the same price, can ask for a specific support in the module for the brake handle with depressable hat-Switch to recognize left and right as movement of the handle while the button is pressed and on release pull push the handle, because they prefer that to the simple button?! Keep in mind all that, because they can't be bothered to use the Saitek, Virpil or TARGET software coming with there premium price devices, like the vendor of the stick intended?

As I said, I doubt they will do this. You did put the request, so let's see, what happens.

 

Yes, IF it were on one of the most widely used reputable controllers on the market, I would argue that would be a very good reason for ED to support it.

 

But... (but coming up... ummm... but not that kind of... but... :shocking:)