Ground Radar, out of curiosity...

[S. Low]

It seems like this feature will make all of the air to ground functionality of the F-18 on a whole other level of awesome. Or am I over estimating how good it is? Is there going to be HUD symbology for ground targets? What should we expect with how the ground radar works with the various AGM weapons?

[Jak525]

It's a very very in depth system with tons of modes. I hear it isn't used IRL these days as much but I'd still say it's pretty cool.

 

The HUD symbology will display a diamond just like if you designate with the FLIR. On that same idea, it will work with AG weapons exactly how the FLIR does. There is no special integration.

[Sting57]

In the other sim that can't be named here, the only thing i found the AG radar useful for was helping pickup up ground movers.

 

Now if you did not have a TGP onboard, I'd image the AG radar would be very useful. Its been a long time since I have flown without a TGP though...

[Santi871]

A/G radar in general isn't a magic bullet that will fix all your problems, but it's just another tool. Using it against ships is the best use case since they stand out a lot.

 

For ground units (especially non moving ones), it depends a lot more on the operator's knowledge/skill + intel since you will have to find a way to recognize what is a target and what is a building or a tree. For instance, airfields should be easier to recognize. However, finding a random target without knowing what to look for or any patterns would be quite difficult.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Santi871

[Cytarabine]

I think it is going to have a few use cases;

 

- Finding moving vehicles which can then be used to slave the TPOD to (or an IR-MAV) to engage

- SAR and long range weapons like the SLAM-ER could be interesting, particularly at striking large targets at extreme range.

- The Harpoon will clearly benefit a lot from the sea mode for engaging shipping targets.

 

So another tool which will be be useful in some situations.

[Paco]

With the invention of GPS and Targeting pods, A/G radars are not used that much. I'd rather see an improved targeting pod that can be slewed to a given set of coordinates. My Hornet is on the shelf until this is fixed.

[Harker]

I also don't mind waiting on the AG radar, especially since the implementation needs to be seriously optimized for performance before it's usable (if the JF-17 is indicative of its current status). A better FLIR simulation on the other hand...

[LastRifleRound]

I disagree with the common sentiment.

 

First, the obvious, GPS degraded environments and low cloud decks.

 

Add to that earlier designations, better offset strategies, scenarios where prior recon did not resolve exact target point, mid-90's simulations are all things a ground radar can do (especially since the Hornet has DBS3 which provides a very readable map for structural complexes and "sore thumb" scenarios that would not resolve well on FLIR).

 

In the JF17 I often find myself using DBS to acquire my targets because it is easier to make out certain targets, especially at range, than with an optical system. I can enter FTT early and concentrate on flying.

 

GMTI will allow the easy acquisition and lead computed dumb bombing on movers in all weather conditions.

 

AG radar will give us way more new options. Uodated FLIR is great, but I don't think, for the Hornet, it would have as much an impact.

[Kang]

It'll definitely be a thing about finding ships, which for some vessels is a general pain.

[maxTRX]

I think it is going to have a few use cases;

 

- Finding moving vehicles which can then be used to slave the TPOD to (or an IR-MAV) to engage

- SAR and long range weapons like the SLAM-ER could be interesting, particularly at striking large targets at extreme range.

- The Harpoon will clearly benefit a lot from the sea mode for engaging shipping targets.

 

So another tool which will be be useful in some situations.

 

In the "other" sim I used the ground radar on occasions especially when flying strike missions w/o JTAC or any other support or when intel was not that great making "perfect" pre-planning impossible. I used Freeze feature a lot, popping up from the weeds, radar on (from standby), scan and designate the target, freeze the image, radar off and back in the weeds.

Another cool thing was auto acquisition in AGR mode. When TDC was on the HUD (in A/G or NAV) the ground radar would switch to AGR and I could maneuver to position gun reticle close to target vehicle and the radar would scoop it up (sort of like A/A auto mode) although using HMD to designate is cooler;) So... yea, it's another tool.

You can even fly an instrument approach by designating a runway threshold... and many more fun things.

[Harlikwin]

Yeah, depends on how its implemented. The JF17 has AGR, and its not really that useful if you want to have a taste of it. It only has the basic modes, so that may be part of it, but overall it is IMO not a game changer if you aren't flying above a cloud later that makes the TGP/mk1 eyebal useless.

[Fri13]

It seems like this feature will make all of the air to ground functionality of the F-18 on a whole other level of awesome. Or am I over estimating how good it is? Is there going to be HUD symbology for ground targets? What should we expect with how the ground radar works with the various AGM weapons?

 

You are overestimating it. Sorry :-)

 

The A-G radar on the AGP-65 is not that great. It is good enough to detect things like bridges, individual large buildings in middle of nowhere, ships on sea, ports, airfields and on greatly flat areas you will detect aircrafts on airfields, but to detect ground vehicles on the ground... Not so great.

 

Your capability to use the A-G to find ground targets as armored vehicles and such, is very very low, they basically needs to be sitting on the flat terrain like airstrip, highway and such that generates very clear contrast.

 

So units on forest and such are invisible to your A-G radar.

 

Good images about what to expect is in this post: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3394930&postcount=1

 

The A-G radar in Hornet will be similar to your Tactical Awareness Display in A-10C, but the big difference is that you actually can find the bridges and individual large buildings or roads at such manner that you can easily slave the Targeting Pod there to find the targets.

 

So it is nothing like the latest radars with latest A-G capabilities, but it is better than TAD when it comes to find the more accurate area (first find area via other means, then set radar scan there, find a more interesting point and slave TPOD there).

The main benefit will be that you will be capable operate at low visibility or bad weather (overcast etc) and find the target areas where your TPOD doesn't work or you can't visually find the area.

 

 

Hopefully as well ED will add new ground units to map, with a passive radar detection systems that allows a GCI to instantly detect all the units on the air that is using radar (even in Air-to-Air modes at medium ranges) as well all the units radio communications etc. Anything really that is related to radio operations. You have one unit with general good direction but you link two together and you get triangled each radar emission source. And this is what makes you incapable use A-G radars as it will instantly reveal your location as long you are using the radar, and each radio use will update positions.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Fri13

[maxTRX]

...Hopefully as well ED will add new ground units to map, with a passive radar detection systems that allows a GCI to instantly detect all the units on the air that is using radar (even in Air-to-Air modes at medium ranges) as well all the units radio communications etc. Anything really that is related to radio operations. You have one unit with general good direction but you link two together and you get triangled each radar emission source. And this is what makes you incapable use A-G radars as it will instantly reveal your location as long you are using the radar, and each radio use will update positions.

 

If they are alert and expect to be attacked at any time anyway (which they will:)) it makes no difference. I will also make sure to turn away after getting my Freeze snapshot then drop in the weeds in EMCON then come in from different direction:music_whistling:

As far as tactics, priorities, risk, assets available, etc... that's a whole new ballgame.

[TLTeo]

I think it's going to depend a lot on what the expectations are.

 

 

 

In the Viggen it's actually very helpful to help with finding targets that are not exactly pre-planned, like ships or armored units near but not on a target waypoint. In fact I use it as a poor man's TGP to help me fire Mavs. Then again, the alternative in that jet is to use the Mav seeker head with the EP-13 display, which is not exactly great.

 

 

It's going to be pretty useful in many situations, but people do over-estimate its capabilities imo. Those situations tend to not apply to DCS either, as we often have better intel and/or better weather.

[Fri13]

If they are alert and expect to be attacked at any time anyway (which they will:)) it makes no difference. I will also make sure to turn away after getting my Freeze snapshot then drop in the weeds in EMCON then come in from different direction:music_whistling:

As far as tactics, priorities, risk, assets available, etc... that's a whole new ballgame.

 

It makes difference as they know you have just snapped them. And they will change location, apply counter measures to render them invisible to your radar and generate false targets for you to find anyways.

 

That is why EW is so complex that if you want to stay sneaky, you have no much options.

[maxTRX]

It makes difference as they know you have just snapped them. And they will change location, apply counter measures to render them invisible to your radar and generate false targets for you to find anyways.

 

That is why EW is so complex that if you want to stay sneaky, you have no much options.

 

Absolutely, time to look for the next target... just kidding. So far in DCS all they do is reposition few yards. Yep, it would be nice to have AI performing on a different level... you never know.

[Fri13]

Yep, it would be nice to have AI performing on a different level... you never know.

 

One of my wishes done at the 1.2x series was that AI would gain in the dynamic campaign level the capability to detect the nearest cover areas, like buildings, forests and such. And then automatically drive to cover, unmount the infantry etc. As well have infantry in the APC's and such with top hatches be ready to launch MANPADS on the move. And then after each time the aircraft flies past etc, they will relocate themselves. As well requirement is that the marching columns would be more realistic about their distances, so in urban area vehicles say close to each others, but outside you can have even 500 meters or so distances, rendering every bombing strike or rocket strafe only really striking to individual unit instead whole group.

 

It would make far more difficult to perform ground attacks when you can't really find them and they would perform more of a self-protection by scattering around and actually learning to fire pre-emptive strikes front of the aircraft, instead trying to hit it by leading to it constantly.

 

Such behavior makes very dangerous to fly low or to engage ground targets once you have been spotted. And it as well would make A-G radar more useful trying to find those moving columns for strike when there is no knowledge where the column is marching. But to engage a marching company, you will not be engaging a group of units on small area, but there can be even multiple kilometers wide area that has just prepared for air-defense positions in 15-30 seconds after air alarm, and that easily means that no attacking aircraft is going to survive there below 4 km altitude, and can't stay there long as air patrol is alarmed on area.

 

So it really comes to try to get few aircrafts to find their own individual targets and get to strike simultaneously on each to their owns and then fly off. This way wearing down the marching units and slow down reaching their destination.

[Kev2go]

In the other sim that can't be named here, the only thing i found the AG radar useful for was helping pickup up ground movers.

 

Now if you did not have a TGP onboard, I'd image the AG radar would be very useful. Its been a long time since I have flown without a TGP though...

 

That other sim honestly doesn't do AG radar justice. Its one area where it felt short.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Kev2go

[Kev2go]

You are overestimating it. Sorry :-)

 

The A-G radar on the AGP-65 is not that great. It is good enough to detect things like bridges, individual large buildings in middle of nowhere, ships on sea, ports, airfields and on greatly flat areas you will detect aircrafts on airfields, but to detect ground vehicles on the ground... Not so great.

 

Your capability to use the A-G to find ground targets as armored vehicles and such, is very very low, they basically needs to be sitting on the flat terrain like airstrip, highway and such that generates very clear contrast.

 

So units on forest and such are invisible to your A-G radar.

 

Good images about what to expect is in this post: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3394930&postcount=1

 

The A-G radar in Hornet will be similar to your Tactical Awareness Display in A-10C, but the big difference is that you actually can find the bridges and individual large buildings or roads at such manner that you can easily slave the Targeting Pod there to find the targets.

 

So it is nothing like the latest radars with latest A-G capabilities, but it is better than TAD when it comes to find the more accurate area (first find area via other means, then set radar scan there, find a more interesting point and slave TPOD there).

The main benefit will be that you will be capable operate at low visibility or bad weather (overcast etc) and find the target areas where your TPOD doesn't work or you can't visually find the area.

 

 

Hopefully as well ED will add new ground units to map, with a passive radar detection systems that allows a GCI to instantly detect all the units on the air that is using radar (even in Air-to-Air modes at medium ranges) as well all the units radio communications etc. Anything really that is related to radio operations. You have one unit with general good direction but you link two together and you get triangled each radar emission source. And this is what makes you incapable use A-G radars as it will instantly reveal your location as long you are using the radar, and each radio use will update positions.

 

 

 

Not that your wrong with the limitations of using older A/G radar for attempting to aqure and pinking individual tanks, but i just wanted to point out its a good thing we have the AN/APG73 phase 2 in the Hornet and not the AN/APG65 ;) . Phase 2 of which introduced SAR technology for further refined radar map resolution and a extra level of magnification of sorts ( EXP 3) Its said to be comparable quality to that of the F15E.

 

Overall the radar in Hornet is better than that of the F16C viper because the USAF never updated AN/APG68 past V5, wheras the closest technological neer peer radar for a viper to the Hornet would have been the AN/APG68 V9, which apparently only export users upgraded too.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Kev2go

[kaoqumba]

Not that your wrong with the limitations of using older A/G radar for attempting to aqure and pinking individual tanks, but i just wanted to point out its a good thing we have the AN/APG73 phase 2 in the Hornet and not the AN/APG65 ;) . Phase 2 of which introduced SAR technology for further refined radar map resolution and a extra level of magnification of sorts ( EXP 3) Its said to be comparable quality to that of the F15E.

 

Overall the radar in Hornet is better than that of the F16C viper because the USAF never updated AN/APG68 past V5, wheras the closest technological neer peer radar for a viper to the Hornet would have been the AN/APG68 V9, which apparently only export users upgraded too.

 

To be honest, I'm a little worried. Fear to be informed by ed in the future: due to lack of simulation data, we can't simulate an / apg73 phase II radar, so we can only be forced to simulate older models. Just like the countermeasure panel under the lower display in the beginning, it has encountered the problem of insufficient data.

[kaoqumba]

As an "early product", all plans are likely to change

[Kev2go]

To be honest, I'm a little worried. Fear to be informed by ed in the future: due to lack of simulation data, we can't simulate an / apg73 phase II radar, so we can only be forced to simulate older models. Just like the countermeasure panel under the lower display in the beginning, it has encountered the problem of insufficient data.

 

The Hornet we have though didn't use an older radar than the APG73. The Lot 20 was a final produced in 1998, and on top of that we have plenty of post Y2K post production upgrades. The first APG73's were delivered as early as 1994 . At worst itl be APG73 Phase 1, but even that is unlikely as the very last delivery of the APG73 phase 2 was in 2006, and our hornet is circa 2005.

 

Really IF ED doesn't have enough data il imagine they will just have a worse approximation of SAR technology in the sense of the exact image quality presented in screen. Otherwise I dont see why they wouldn't do an EXP 3 A/G option that SAR allows, as such radar modes certainly are documented ( see beamscanners APG73 thread) Judging by wip of ED radar tech for the hornet many years ago ( and seeing it already implemented in some form for JF17 Real Beam mapping) its already looking to more authentic representation of A/G mapping capabilities than anything else id seen in other sims.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Kev2go

[LastRifleRound]

I think we'll see the three EXP modes. I hope they model FTT, but I think you won't see AG radar until they've created an RCS for all objects on the map. When you are in RBM or one of the EXP modes, there are two types of designation. A "Stabilized NAV" designation, which is an INS plot of the interpolated position of the TDC on the radar map. This isn't too accurate.

 

The other is FTT. If the radar, when commanded to designate, can "see" something to track at that location that stands out from the background (kind of like point track on a TGP), then it will enter FTT and provide very accurate targeting information.

 

We don't have anything like that in DCS right now. It's a deep system with a lot of cool features. I wish we could know what the extent of its simulation will be.

 

It even has a mode that auto acquires ground targets like structures and vehicles kind of like ACM, something a TGP can't even do. Imagine diving on a moving vehicle, auto acquiring it and dropping a Mk20 with lead computed.

 

I know it's early, but it would be good to know which version and modes will be simulated.

[LTRMcrew]

With the invention of GPS and Targeting pods, A/G radars are not used that much. I'd rather see an improved targeting pod that can be slewed to a given set of coordinates. My Hornet is on the shelf until this is fixed.

 

@PACO you can do this manually essentially. If you have a waypoint setup as the target position, on the SA page you will see both where the TGP is looking as well as your waypoint. Slew the TGP diamond over your waypoint and now it's in the area. Not perfect but gets it looking in the right spot.