Lets talk...about CCRP

[jasonbirder]

I'm gradually learning the wonderful A10C - working my way through the aircraft systems and procedures and now the different weapons and their employment.

I'm pretty comfortable using a variety of different CCIP profiles to employ Unguided Low Drag Bombs...but am struggling a bit with CCRP...

(In no particular order)

 

 

1. CCRP Invalid - I get a CCRP Invalid display across my HUD whenever I'm in CCRP mode and below 8000 MSL, whilst not the end of the world (why would I use CCRP below 8K) I can't believe that's the minimum altitude for all CCRP deliveries...it seems independent of Weapon Profile Selected (LDGPs and CBUs) so I'm assuming its a setting related to the Aircraft rather than the Weapon Profile in the DSMS (and the obvious Min Alt in the Weapon profile is at say 1000' for LDGPs and above the HoF for CBUs in the DSMS)...what am I missing?

 

 

2. Any tips other than the obvious be smooth/be trimmed to get accurate CCRP deliveries? Cos truth is - I suck! I can get a whole hatload of "shacks" with CCIP but my CCRP deliveries are like me closing my eyes and throwing a dart at a board...I know its inherently more inaccurate - but what can I focus on to improve my deliveries?

 

 

3. What does a "good" CCRP Weapon employment profile "look like" ? Again its easy enough with CCIP as there are plenty of "Z-sleds" out there to structure your delivery...what about CCRP? What sort of speeds and altitudes should I be at? How long should I be tracking the ASL? What should my maneuvers be AFTER i've dropped?

 

 

 

The other question...somewhat allied to CCRP is related to unguided CBUs (87s and 97s) should I be using CCRP or CCIP to deliver them? What should my employment profiles look like?

 

 

Thanks :)

Edited February 4, 2020 by jasonbirder

[ex81]

Hi,

just saw, there are already more than 100 views but no answers for you.

 

Try to find the answer in this Quickstart Guide https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/downloads/documentation/?PAGEN_1=2

 

It did help me a lot, when I started to learn the A10C.

Hope it helps.

[Ziptie]

1. CCRP Invalid - I get a CCRP Invalid display across my HUD whenever I'm in CCRP mode and below 8000 MSL, whilst not the end of the world (why would I use CCRP below 8K) I can't believe that's the minimum altitude for all CCRP deliveries...it seems independent of Weapon Profile Selected (LDGPs and CBUs) so I'm assuming its a setting related to the Aircraft rather than the Weapon Profile in the DSMS (and the obvious Min Alt in the Weapon profile is at say 1000' for LDGPs and above the HoF for CBUs in the DSMS)...what am I missing?

 

 

2. Any tips other than the obvious be smooth/be trimmed to get accurate CCRP deliveries? Cos truth is - I suck! I can get a whole hatload of "shacks" with CCIP but my CCRP deliveries are like me closing my eyes and throwing a dart at a board...I know its inherently more inaccurate - but what can I focus on to improve my deliveries?

 

 

1. I regularly drop CBU-97 / CBU-105 in CCRP at or below 8,000 feet AGL. Not sure exactly why you are getting the CCRP invalid message - unless you are forgetting to assign a SPI?

 

 

Example:

 

Find you target via TGP, TGP SOI, TMS forward long to assign SPI, line up ASL to pipper on HUD, wait for unwind counterclockwise and depress weapon release button between two range carrots.

 

If the two range carrots are located at 12 and 6, then you will need to depress the weapon release button anywhere between those two marks (11-7), if you wait until the unwind has passed 6, the weapon will not release if you depress the weapon release if it passes counterclockwise past 6 (5-1). Hope that reference makes sense, sometimes difficult via text without picture/video reference.

 

 

2. I feel like you might have been missing the TMS foward long to assign SPI. If so, you will find that CCRP is actually a much more simplistic way of employing A/G bombs, as you only have to maintain level flight to do so, rather than rolling in and putting the aircraft into a nose down situation (typically more danger and have to be more precise with timing of weapon release button). The key is, to extend far enough that when you turn back in, you have enough time to properly be setup with the ASL and pipper. Once you've mastered that, you can then shorten the distance/time between CCRP attack runs.

 

 

For you last question, about unguided bombs and CCIP or CCRP delivery - this is massively influenced by several conditions, including but not limited to:

 

Visibility

Wind

Combat AO threats

Pilot skill

Pilot preference

 

 

For CCRP cluster munitions employment, I'd recommend using the CBU-105 as it is a wind corrected / INS guided weapon and is more accurate in wind and weather conditions than the CBU-97/87.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Don

Edited February 4, 2020 by Ziptie

[jasonbirder]

Thanks for the feedback both of you :)

 

 

I am assigning a SPI in CCRP mode via TMS long, as confirmed by the lower left TGP indication in the HUD (I actually assign a SPI before entering CCRP mode by selecting the desired weapon profile with DMS left/right) though presumably if I hadn't assigned a target SPI the currently selected steerpoint would remain as SPI and whilst not guiding to the "desired" target wouldn't give me any warning indicators of no SPI in the HUD...the "tadpole" and then the ASL would just guide me to the wrong point in space?

 

 

 

Aren't the "unwinding" range carats only applicable to guided bombs rather than unguided bombs in CCRP? Isn't all I get in CCRP with unguided bombs the "timer countdown" from 20 before the solution cue descends the PBRL

 

 

 

Obviously weapon accuracy is going to be much better with the GPS/IAMs but I'm trying to get the unguided weapon deliveries down pat before moving on!

 

 

 

From an accuracy point of view is it simply the lower the better/the faster the better (less bomb fall time/distance for wind/flight errors to kick in)

 

 

Thanks again!

[Yurgon]

1. CCRP Invalid - I get a CCRP Invalid display across my HUD whenever I'm in CCRP mode and below 8000 MSL

 

Interestingly enough, there's not a single mention of "CCRP invalid" in the entire DCS A-10C manual that I could find. I only found several references to "CCIP invalid", which would typically happen when the SPI is located above the aircraft's current altitude.

 

If you could record a track, that would be great, so that we can look over your shoulder and check exactly what's happening.

 

When you do, please also let us know which DCS version you're running (Stable or OpenBeta, and the version number in case it's not up to date).

 

2. Any tips other than the obvious be smooth/be trimmed to get accurate CCRP deliveries? Cos truth is - I suck!

 

A track would be a great help here as well. ;)

 

I used to have some issues lining up ASL and PBIL, and my finding was that it's a matter of properly trimming the jet, and being smooth on the controls - so exactly what you're suggesting as well. :)

 

A good stick definitely helps with this, as well as a proper setup that suits your needs. I found the A-10C extremely hard to fine-control even with a HOTAS Warthog, until I set up a curve on pitch and roll.

 

Other than that, I always found CCRP to be very accurate.

 

There is some debate whether or not pilots should manually enter wind data into the CDU. If you're interested, there's a great description about it in the forum. But I believe it's actually not required, neither in real life nor in DCS, in order to get accurate results (barring special/specific atmospheric conditions).

 

However, setting the proper QNH should make a difference, so be sure to study the weather briefing or set QNH before takeoff.

 

3. What does a "good" CCRP Weapon employment profile "look like" ?

 

That's a great question, and I'b be interested in the answer as well!

 

I guess it depends. When there are no threats from ground or air, I guess pilots can take all the time they want and line up a nice 20 NM run-in. With threats present, it's always good to limit the run-in exposure as much as possible, so I'm sure there are rules of thumb or formulas to calculate a proper short run-in, but I'm not aware of any such rule or formula.

 

As for egress, if you're self-lasing an LGB, it's evident that you can't maneuver too hard until the bomb hits, in order to keep the TGP un-masked. In any other scenario, I'd get the hell out of Dodge and turn back to the assigned IP or holding point ASAP.

 

The other question...somewhat allied to CCRP is related to unguided CBUs (87s and 97s) should I be using CCRP or CCIP to deliver them? What should my employment profiles look like?

 

Also a good question!

 

Personally, I prefer to drop CBUs in CCRP, because they're definitely not precision weapons (well, the WCMD are, and they'll guide themselves to the target anyway) and it just feels weird to me to drop them in CCIP. But it's quite possible that real life use is very different. Low alt and high speed release certainly minimize the weapon's time of fall and thus increase accuracy, plus there's less time for moving targets to move out of the impact zone. Then again, you'll be exposing yourself to ground based threats that might not be able to reach up to 20.000 feet where pickling the bombs would keep you relatively safe (depending on the type of ground threat, obviously).

 

If someone with more knowledge chimes in, that would be really cool. :)

[LastRifleRound]

I'm gradually learning the wonderful A10C - working my way through the aircraft systems and procedures and now the different weapons and their employment.

I'm pretty comfortable using a variety of different CCIP profiles to employ Unguided Low Drag Bombs...but am struggling a bit with CCRP...

(In no particular order)

 

 

1. CCRP Invalid - I get a CCRP Invalid display across my HUD whenever I'm in CCRP mode and below 8000 MSL, whilst not the end of the world (why would I use CCRP below 8K) I can't believe that's the minimum altitude for all CCRP deliveries...it seems independent of Weapon Profile Selected (LDGPs and CBUs) so I'm assuming its a setting related to the Aircraft rather than the Weapon Profile in the DSMS (and the obvious Min Alt in the Weapon profile is at say 1000' for LDGPs and above the HoF for CBUs in the DSMS)...what am I missing?

 

 

2. Any tips other than the obvious be smooth/be trimmed to get accurate CCRP deliveries? Cos truth is - I suck! I can get a whole hatload of "shacks" with CCIP but my CCRP deliveries are like me closing my eyes and throwing a dart at a board...I know its inherently more inaccurate - but what can I focus on to improve my deliveries?

 

 

3. What does a "good" CCRP Weapon employment profile "look like" ? Again its easy enough with CCIP as there are plenty of "Z-sleds" out there to structure your delivery...what about CCRP? What sort of speeds and altitudes should I be at? How long should I be tracking the ASL? What should my maneuvers be AFTER i've dropped?

 

 

 

The other question...somewhat allied to CCRP is related to unguided CBUs (87s and 97s) should I be using CCRP or CCIP to deliver them? What should my employment profiles look like?

 

 

Thanks :)

 

1. I think ziptie is right here, you're SPI isn't where you think it is. Double-check the TAD You didn't touch DTOF or anything like that in the profile page, right? Agree with others if this is still a problem we'd need to see a track.

 

2. Fly IFR landings with ILS. Seriously. Teaches you how to avoid PIOs and not to "chase" the symbology, but slowly guide into it, which is the primary problem I see when it comes to CCRP. Think ahead. Don't just always aim to put the dot on the ASL initially. You will want to overshoot it when it's way off then gently center it with your FPM. As you move from right to left, counter your movements BEFORE you can visually observe the pendulum has swung too far. Try and predict what the aircraft will do before it actually does it. When you do this, it will appear "smooth" and that's the look you're going for.

 

3. I use CCRP all the time below 8k ft. A shallow dive (dive<10deg) is a great way to put accurate bombs on target. String bombing columns with CBU97's when you want to stay out of their engagement envelope for is a great use for CCRP you just can't get with CCIP. Accuracy isn't really an issue within reason with these, either. If they are moving, just make sure you set the HOF lower or they drive right past the submunitions.

 

If you're above 10k, you need to be dropping your bombs in strings with decent intervals to make up for the inherent inaccuracy of dropping iron at that altitude. As far as speed, the faster the better. The earlier you can drop your bombs the more survivable you will be. The A10 really can't get fast enough level to worry about your speed. In general you should be above 250kts, ideally above 300kts if you can manage it.

 

Basically, if you need to drop iron in an area with a heavy low-alt AAA threat, CCRP is going to be your go-to.

[QuiGon]

Aren't the "unwinding" range carats only applicable to guided bombs rather than unguided bombs in CCRP? Isn't all I get in CCRP with unguided bombs the "timer countdown" from 20 before the solution cue descends the PBRL

Not exactly. It depends on the type of guided bomb. Laser guided bombs give you the "timer countdown", while JDAMs give you the "unwinding" indication.

[Yurgon]

Not exactly. It depends on the type of guided bomb. Laser guided bombs give you the "timer countdown", while JDAMs give you the "unwinding" indication.

 

As far as the jet is concerned, LGBs are unguided. :smartass:

 

While it may sound like a technicality, the aircraft doesn't "talk" to LGBs, which is why they can be mounted on any station, unlike JDAMs and WCMD which can only be mounted on one of the six "smart" stations. The IFFCC only needs to know which trajectory to calculate for the LGBs (optimal or ballistic), but that is determined in the DSMS, not in/on/by the weapon itself.

 

In turn, the CCRP solution cue for a GBU-10 and GBU-12 will be the same as for a naked Mk-84 or Mk-82, whereas JDAMs and WCMDs have the minimum and maximum range carets that allow the pilot a little more flexibility when to release the weapon.

[jasonbirder]

Well, that's one mystery solved!

 

The CCRP Invalid was (I think) because rather than creating a new DSMS profile for the CCRP drop...I edited the one i'd used previously for a CCIP drop WITHOUT deleting the DTOF I'd entered for the CCIP drop...

I assume so anyway...by creating two seperate mk82 profiles on start up - the CCRP with very simple settings (SEM None, Min ALT 1000, SGL, CCRP) I didn't get the CCRP Invalid message and was able to drop at a variety of different altitudes.

The 6.7 sec DTOF I had entered in the profile for my CCIP drop was obviously interfering with weapon release in CCRP mode!

[Frederf]

CCRP invalid is when the SPI is above your current height or possibly in rare cases when you have no SPI at all. I don't think there's anything in weapon profiles that can change that. If you have MIN ALT or even CBU HOF too high there's a different message (INVALID FUZING).

 

CCRP kills SPI so managing SPI placement and which sensor is the SPI generator. Most times the CCRP INVALID comes from the SPI being generated by the steerpoint and the steerpoint being in mid air. It's usually hard to fly under SPI any other way.

 

For delivery accuracy the keys are to ensure the pipper dot hits the solution cue dot. It's OK for the lines and PBRL to be misaligned. The pipper-solution cue relationship is the critical one. Fly stable for the few second before release. CCRP is never going to be quite as pin point accurate as CCIP but you can get rather close.

 

The A-10 does treat Paveways a little differently in that the release constraints (3/9 v. 5 mil) and ballistic target (energy positive v. direct) are different than a standard bomb but physically on release it's a pulled wire like a dumb bomb.

[LastRifleRound]

Well, that's one mystery solved!

 

The CCRP Invalid was (I think) because rather than creating a new DSMS profile for the CCRP drop...I edited the one i'd used previously for a CCIP drop WITHOUT deleting the DTOF I'd entered for the CCIP drop...

I assume so anyway...by creating two seperate mk82 profiles on start up - the CCRP with very simple settings (SEM None, Min ALT 1000, SGL, CCRP) I didn't get the CCRP Invalid message and was able to drop at a variety of different altitudes.

The 6.7 sec DTOF I had entered in the profile for my CCIP drop was obviously interfering with weapon release in CCRP mode!

 

This makes sense. If you had that profile active, then used master mode to switch to CCRP, then all of the other profile constraints would still exist except now delivery mode is CCRP.

[Ziptie]

Well, that's one mystery solved!

 

The CCRP Invalid was (I think) because rather than creating a new DSMS profile for the CCRP drop...I edited the one i'd used previously for a CCIP drop WITHOUT deleting the DTOF I'd entered for the CCIP drop...

I assume so anyway...by creating two seperate mk82 profiles on start up - the CCRP with very simple settings (SEM None, Min ALT 1000, SGL, CCRP) I didn't get the CCRP Invalid message and was able to drop at a variety of different altitudes.

The 6.7 sec DTOF I had entered in the profile for my CCIP drop was obviously interfering with weapon release in CCRP mode!

 

 

That would certainly explain things. Glad you got it sorted out sir.

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

Don

[AvgWhiteGuy]

As I recall, my initial failures at CCRP was that I was assigning the weapon from the MFD instead of the HOTAS. I may be wrong but it was not using the proper profile I had edited. With a TMWarthog I select CCRP from the Master Mode (Control Stick) button then select the weapon from the DMS (Control Stick).

 

On another point, I never use the Waypoints, regardless of where it is located as a target SPI. I use the Waypoint to get me to the neighborhood and then use the TGP to affirm my target, most the time using the Laser as well for slant range and at the foot of the target.

 

Regarding what Yurgon said about 'self-lasing' and maneuvering after pickle.... you can pickle a GBU-10 or 12 and then make an aggressive turn of more than 90 degrees to avoid threats as long as you're aware of your countdown time to projected impact (lower left corner of R-MFD).

Keep in mind which direction you're turning (to avoid additional threats) and what else is hanging on the wings that might 'mask' the TGP (inboard & outboard).

Flatten out your turn enough to be stable with clear line of sight for the TGP and fire the laser (if you're using Auto Lase Off - Latch On) within about 12-15 seconds to impact. At 18,000ft AGL you can almost do a full U-turn to avoid threats after pickle.

 

Regarding accuracy with the JDAMs, I can hit (and destroy) a T-90 from over 5 miles away (18,000AGL) with +80% accuracy using a GBU-38....not that you generally need to. But you can hit a Tunguska, Tor or Osa and be headed home, long before he launches depending on your altitude/airspeed. Full disclosure, I can't hit the planet with a MK82 in CCIP:cry:

 

Also, a good practice with GBU-38s & 31s is to give your plane a little side to side rock, shake and shimmy to the left and right when the the leading caret is past the 6 o'clock. This will avoid having your run-in aborted if the weapon's INS/GPS degrades due to an extended straight/flat run in.

 

Regarding CBU's....the 97 is great as a CCIP choice when you don't have time for calculations or there is no serious ground threat and it also works well in a CCRP environment. The 105 is awesome in CCRP, especially from higher altitudes with ground threats. Pickling a string of 105's is a blast (literally) especially if you know how to create a bomb run flight plan.

One additional note on 105s is that, although they are 'wind corrected' and accurate, their sub-munitions are not, and are at the fancy of the winds. There's nothing more frustrating then having the initial dispersion occur right above your 'tank farm' target and then watch them drift off into the abyss.

 

These weapons and loadouts are why I love the A-10C the most, such versatility when you're out hunting!!:megalol:

Edited February 8, 2020 by AvgWhiteGuy
correction