How does DCS compare to real life BFM?

[Bog9y]

A question for the people that have done real life BFM. I am curious how DCS compares to the real thing when it comes to BFM? Apart from not feeling the G's and maybe some airplanes' performance may not be accurate but when it comes to carrying out BFM tactics and maneuvres, is DCS good or is it like an arcade game to you?

[Notso]

I can't speak to non-VR setups i.e. flat screens. But with VR, it's definitely NOT arcade-y feeling.

[Cake]

I can't speak to non-VR setups i.e. flat screens. But with VR, it's definitely NOT arcade-y feeling.

 

The only issue I have with my VR experience (limited by RIFT - so I expect newer VR is much improved) is that I find aircraft spotting unrealistically difficult and then once acquired I find it very difficult to maintain visual on a target unless it is very close.

 

It's been somewhat of a deal breaker for me. Makes me want to just head to a formation server or do bounces on a carrier.

[GGTharos]

A question for the people that have done real life BFM. I am curious how DCS compares to the real thing when it comes to BFM? Apart from not feeling the G's and maybe some airplanes' performance may not be accurate but when it comes to carrying out BFM tactics and maneuvres, is DCS good or is it like an arcade game to you?

 

There's no arcade in DCS with respect to basic BFM. AI cheats, yes, AI can't really BFM well either, but player vs player is great.

Each aircraft has its own specific strengths, weaknesses and quirks to go along with the stuff that you would typically discuss. You will handle the older crop of jets differently than the modern FBW birds when it comes to edge of the envelope maneuvers, etc.

[Cake]

... is DCS good or is it like an arcade game to you?

 

Arcade games can be fun, but DCS doesn't seem like one at all. I think minus the kinesthesis it is more challenging to have a sense of speed / energy.

[=475FG= Dawger]

The only issue I have with my VR experience (limited by RIFT - so I expect newer VR is much improved) is that I find aircraft spotting unrealistically difficult and then once acquired I find it very difficult to maintain visual on a target unless it is very close.

 

It's been somewhat of a deal breaker for me. Makes me want to just head to a formation server or do bounces on a carrier.

 

This is why I only fly on servers that acknowledge the above and provide some form of dot labels that make it a bit more realistic.

 

BFM with well crafted dot labels to emulate more realistic aircraft visibility make all the difference in BFM fun.

[Bog9y]

I read that the A10 in DCS is used as a procedures trainer in the US National Guard. So I wonder if any of the forces use DCS for teaching BFM concepts before doing it in real life and potentially wasting lots of gas money.

 

I know they have their own dome simulators and procedure trainers but I wonder if with a VR setup it could be a money saving setup that would allow more trainees to train at the same time and thus saving time and money. Which is where my original question comes from.

 

Oh yeah, I went on the just dogfighting server without swtiching the DOT labels on and I got shot down before Icould even figure out who belonged to which team.

[Emmy]

I read that the A10 in DCS is used as a procedures trainer in the US National Guard. So I wonder if any of the forces use DCS for teaching BFM concepts before doing it in real life and potentially wasting lots of gas money.

 

I know they have their own dome simulators and procedure trainers but I wonder if with a VR setup it could be a money saving setup that would allow more trainees to train at the same time and thus saving time and money. Which is where my original question comes from.

 

Oh yeah, I went on the just dogfighting server without swtiching the DOT labels on and I got shot down before Icould even figure out who belonged to which team.

 

True Story: Back in 1986, I had a chance to visit the 162nd FS, an ANG unit at the Tucson International Airport who do a LOT of international F-16 training.

 

In addition to touring the offices and stuff, I had a chance to fly one of their sims. While it was a rigid platform type, the cockpit was real and the fidelity and fluidity of the graphics surrounding me (270° screen) was amazing. Before I hopped in the sim, I had the chance to try a “dumbed down” sim that was used for radar training and learning intercept geometry. It felt oddly familiar. I realized why when I saw the manufacturer’s badge on the side of one of the computers. The name was Spectrum Holobyte!

 

Short story, long: I think there’s a lot of consumer sim DNA sprinkled across military aviation applications.

[draconus]

I read that the A10 in DCS is used as a procedures trainer in the US National Guard. So I wonder if any of the forces use DCS for teaching BFM concepts before doing it in real life and potentially wasting lots of gas money.

 

I know they have their own dome simulators and procedure trainers but I wonder if with a VR setup it could be a money saving setup that would allow more trainees to train at the same time and thus saving time and money. Which is where my original question comes from.

 

Oh yeah, I went on the just dogfighting server without swtiching the DOT labels on and I got shot down before Icould even figure out who belonged to which team.

It's not the same thing. You can learn a lot of systems and stuff in DCS and that can be used as a training tool just fine.

Real training of BFM imho should not be performed in any sim - because it lacks many factors such as G forces, gut feeling, proper visuals and if talking DCS: stick forces and full cockpit, that are crucial in proper training and can be counterproductive if simulated on the ground. You have to know how your body behaves up in the air, how much force you can put on the stick, how to look behind...

To show some tactics and tacview data it's fine for presentations.

[Harker]

I read that the A10 in DCS is used as a procedures trainer in the US National Guard. So I wonder if any of the forces use DCS for teaching BFM concepts before doing it in real life and potentially wasting lots of gas money.

The French airforce (AdA) was also using DCS for procedure/systems training for the Mirage. They've been giving feedback and some info to Razbam and that lead to the DCS Mirage-2000C getting several updates recently (new radio, new ECM panel, complete overhaul of the weapons and radar system and control logic).

I was at an airshow of the AdA and the French Navy recently and they had a booth with DCS running on two VR setups. People would sit and instructors would tell them how to take off, do this and that etc. It was pretty cool.

All in all, I think that a completed and validated module in DCS can be a great procedure/systems trainer. Now, for BFM, I believe less so, since, you can practice techniques and maneuvers etc for sure, but a huge part, namely the part of being there, feeling the forces, the strain and dealing with them while also keeping your BFM training in mind and applying it, that's something not easily replicated.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Harker

[Silver_Dragon]

The French airforce (AdA) was also using DCS for procedure/systems training for the Mirage. They've been giving feedback and some info to Razbam and that lead to the DCS Mirage-2000C getting several updates recently (new radio, new ECM panel, complete overhaul of the weapons and radar system and control logic).

I was at an airshow of the AdA and the French Navy recently and they had a booth with DCS running on two VR setups. People would sit and instructors would tell them how to take off, do this and that etc. It was pretty cool.

All in all, I think that a completed and validated module in DCS can be a great procedure/systems trainer. Now, for BFM, I believe less so, since, you can practice techniques and maneuvers etc for sure, but a huge part, namely the part of being there, feeling the forces, the strain and dealing with them while also keeping your BFM training in mind and applying it, that's something not easily replicated.

On a video, Jim, the old CEO talk about a profesional CA was used by the UK army as JTAC training, leather neck \ M3 was show the Mi21bis used by Serbian air force, ED \ Bsk products was use by Avia Ltd \ DINAMIKA training companies, a training "Afganistán" video was leaked under Mi8 develop, and RAZBAM was talk about your projects as AV-8B \ Mig19P can be used on profesional training.

 

Enviado desde mi RNE-L21 mediante Tapatalk

[Strke]

I was lucky enough to fly a few hours of DCS F-16:Viper in VR in a LAN environment with an ex-fighterpilot who has over 1500 hours in the F-16.

 

The session involved:

 

Formation takeoff, BFM (with ext wing tanks), CCIP MK-82 attack, BVR vs 2 AI Su-27 and SEAD.

 

After this session he was extremely impressed with the fidelity of the sim, how realistic the aircraft performed, how accurate everything was etc. "It's just like sitting in the real thing, everything is familiar". Essentially he couldn't really understand that such a product was made available to the general public, due to the sheer accuracy of the jet. Briefly after stating that, he noted that, technically speaking it's the tactics and strategies that are sensitive information, and DCS does not offer that by default.

 

Sure enough, he asked me how he could get DCS for himself at home :thumbup:

[Bog9y]

I was lucky enough to fly a few hours of DCS F-16:Viper in VR in a LAN environment with an ex-fighterpilot who has over 1500 hours in the F-16.

 

The session involved:

 

Formation takeoff, BFM (with ext wing tanks), CCIP MK-82 attack, BVR vs 2 AI Su-27 and SEAD.

 

After this session he was extremely impressed with the fidelity of the sim, how realistic the aircraft performed, how accurate everything was etc. "It's just like sitting in the real thing, everything is familiar". Essentially he couldn't really understand that such a product was made available to the general public, due to the sheer accuracy of the jet. Briefly after stating that, he noted that, technically speaking it's the tactics and strategies that are sensitive information, and DCS does not offer that by default.

 

Sure enough, he asked me how he could get DCS for himself at home :thumbup:

 

Interesting! Lucky indeed. I'm a big Viper fan and would love to have a few hours of flying it with someone who has actually flown it.

 

How did the BFM go?

 

If he was impressed with the DCS Viper you should show him Falcon BMS, the avionics on that are as good as it gets really.

[Harlikwin]

I was lucky enough to fly a few hours of DCS F-16:Viper in VR in a LAN environment with an ex-fighterpilot who has over 1500 hours in the F-16.

 

The session involved:

 

Formation takeoff, BFM (with ext wing tanks), CCIP MK-82 attack, BVR vs 2 AI Su-27 and SEAD.

 

After this session he was extremely impressed with the fidelity of the sim, how realistic the aircraft performed, how accurate everything was etc. "It's just like sitting in the real thing, everything is familiar". Essentially he couldn't really understand that such a product was made available to the general public, due to the sheer accuracy of the jet. Briefly after stating that, he noted that, technically speaking it's the tactics and strategies that are sensitive information, and DCS does not offer that by default.

 

Sure enough, he asked me how he could get DCS for himself at home :thumbup:

 

LOL. Be sure to ask him how realistic slewing the WP marker around was. Or the IFF.