A few questions for G B and/or Lex

[Jetguy06]

Hey guys. Sorry for the dump of multiple questions, but I figured it's more logical to ask several questions here rather than add four or five separate ones to the F-18 subthread.

 

 

That said, here we go...

 

 

1. In Lex's videos describing carrier operations, he explains that there is a 10 NM bubble around the carrier that you don't pierce until you talk to the controlling agency. What I'm unsure about is whether that is a 10 NM diameter or radius bubble. If radius, then I contact the agency at 10 NM DME from the carrier, but if it's diameter, then I would contact at 5 DME. I'm just a little confused with which it is.

 

 

2. I've read that when entering the CASE I stack, it's preferred that aircraft enter at either position 1 or 3, but that aircraft can enter from any heading. So, say the carrier's BRC is 000, and I'm entering from the north east, flying a heading of approximately 220. What cues do I use to know when to start turning so I don't fly too far into the stack or fly past it? If I enter at Point 1, I just align my TACAN with the BRC and fly offset to starboard of the carrier, like the break, but at my assigned altitude instead of 800 feet. If I enter at Point 3, I start turning when my DME reads 5.0. It's in those other in-between points I'm curious about.

 

 

3. I've read on the forums here that when exiting the CASE I stack, your commence heading should be BRC plus 210 degrees (or the reciprocal of BRC plus 30 degrees, however you want to look at it), descend to 800 feet, accelerate to 350 knots, and turn to intercept the BRC at or before 3NM aft of the carrier for the Initial. Now, when should I begin my turn towards Initial? My current procedure is (Carrier is BRC 000) commence at 210 degrees, descend to 800, accelerate to 350 knots, and begin my turn at 6 NM (sometimes 7NM), turning at 30 degrees angle of bank. However, this rarely gets me lined up with BRC for the Initial without some serious tweaking in the last few seconds of the turn. What is the correct or preferred procedure? Also, when do I accelerate to 350 knots? As soon as I commence? Once I hit 800 feet? At the initial?

 

 

4. Finally, I understand that the spin pattern is 1,200 feet, and the climb/descent procedure, but what is the spin airspeed? Is it 250, 350, on-speed, or something else?

 

 

Again, sorry for the barrage of questions, but I really want to get all this figured out before the SC drops. I've been flying the Hornet and stock Stennis since day one, but I really want to get on the ball (pun intended) for the SC.

 

 

Thanks and stay safe and healthy!!

[Creepy]

My 2 cents:

 

1. Radius, you should be talking to controllers from much further out, 10nm is the shift to tower (Air Boss) as well as where you need to be established on your holding altitude for the Case I stack (we reference this for medium and high holding as well).

 

2. Entering up BRC (Point 1) is preferred... but as long as you have the appropriate situational awareness to dudes already in the stack... entering tangentially at any Of the 4 points is acceptable.

 

3. The key phrase for starting the descent is “abaft abeam”... so Point 3 or aft. Book answer is the 210 relative, but it’s really just a make it work for the given scenario (I personally am in a constant shallow turn that tightens to about 30-35 degrees with about 90 degrees to go when aligning for the 3nm initial behind the ship. Most people accept to 300 from Point 3 to the initial and then hit 350 inside the initial... but you can use your left hand as required to control spacing.

 

4. Maintain 350 in the spin, it’s a sporty turn.

[Creepy]

My 2 cents:

 

1. Radius, you should be talking to controllers from much further out, 10nm is the shift to tower (Air Boss) as well as where you need to be established on your holding altitude for the Case I stack (we reference this for medium and high holding as well).

 

2. Entering up BRC (Point 1) is preferred... but as long as you have the appropriate situational awareness to dudes already in the stack... entering tangentially at any of the 4 points is acceptable.

 

3. The key phrase for starting the descent is “abaft abeam”... so Point 3 or aft. Book answer is the 210 relative, but it’s really just a make it work for the given scenario (I personally am in a constant shallow turn that tightens to about 30-35 degrees with about 90 degrees to go when aligning for the 3nm initial behind the ship. Most people accept to 300 from Point 3 to the initial and then hit 350 inside the initial... but you can use your left hand as required to control spacing.

 

4. Maintain 350 in the spin, it’s a sporty turn. Another consideration for if you find yourself flying in MP with Cyclic Ops and not a flex deck, prior to the first flight breaking into the pattern, a flight approaching the initial has priority over traffic in the spin pattern (i.e. the spin traffic was too early for the deck and gets “punished”), after the deck is broken, spin traffic takes priority over initial traffic.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Creepy
Words and things

[Hippo]

Hopefully one of the guys will respond. For this sort of thing, I like to go to the NATOPS documents, and mention them in case you weren't aware of them:

 

 

 

6.2.1 Jet/Turboprop Aircraft Port Holding/Spin Pattern

 

The jet and turboprop port holding pattern is a left-hand pattern tangent to the BRC or expected BRC with the ship in the 3-o’clock position and a maximum diameter of 5 nm.

 

Flights shall be established at their assigned port holding pattern altitude 10 nm prior to entering the pattern.

 

Entry shall be tangential with wings level.

 

Minimum altitude assignment shall be 2,000 feet MSL. A minimum of 1,000 feet vertical separation between holding altitudes shall be maintained.

 

The squadron/ unit recovery order and altitude assignment shall be as promulgated by ship/air wing doctrine. All aircraft shall maintain the prescribed separation and landing order in the port holding pattern and throughout the descent.

 

Departure from the port holding pattern for break entry shall be accomplished aft of the ship’s beam.

 

Descent to the break from the port holding pattern is commenced by the lowest aircraft or flight in time to meet the ramp time.

 

This descent should be planned so as to arrive at the initial (3 miles astern, 800 feet) wings level, paralleling the BRC.

 

Flight leaders shall exercise caution to avoid aircraft in the tanker pattern.

 

The flight leader shall either execute a normal break or spin for all or a portion of his flight, depending upon the number of aircraft in the landing pattern.

 

A spin should normally be initiated at the bow.

 

The spin pattern shall be flown at 1,200 feet within 3 nm of the ship.

 

A maximum of six aircraft shall be in the landing pattern at one time. This number may be modified by the air officer.

 

No aircraft shall break more than 4 miles ahead of the ship.

 

Pilots must exercise caution to avoid departing aircraft and aircraft in the starboard holding pattern.

 

Should a Delta be given after commencing descent from the port holding pattern, but prior to entering the landing pattern, aircraft shall climb or descend as required and enter the spin pattern (1,200 feet) unless specifically directed otherwise.

 

Aircraft in the landing pattern shall continue to maintain proper interval, flying the landing pattern at 600 feet until otherwise directed.

 

Flights directed to spin or reenter the port holding pattern shall climb only on the upwind or crosswind leg ahead of the ship’s beam.

 

Aircraft reentering the break from the spin pattern have priority over aircraft entering from the port holding pattern.

 

 

 

I can't find any mention of the speed in the spin, so assume it's pilot's discretion. 300 - 350 kts works well for me.

 

 

EDIT:

 

 

 

 

port holding pattern. The Case I jet and turboprop aircraft holding pattern is a left-hand, 5-mile maximum pattern tangent to the BRC or expected BRC with the ship in the 3-o’clock position of the holding.

 

spin. A signal given to one or more aircraft indicating a departure and reentry into the break. The command “Spin” may be issued by either the air officer or a flight leader.

 

spin pattern. A left-hand pattern employed for jet and turboprop aircraft to reentry the break during Case I or Case II recoveries. The pattern will be flown at 1,200 feet oriented on the BRC or expectedBRC. The pattern will not exceed a distance of 3 nm from the ship.

 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Hippo

[G B]

Hey guys. Sorry for the dump of multiple questions, but I figured it's more logical to ask several questions here rather than add four or five separate ones to the F-18 subthread.

 

 

That said, here we go...

 

 

1. In Lex's videos describing carrier operations, he explains that there is a 10 NM bubble around the carrier that you don't pierce until you talk to the controlling agency. What I'm unsure about is whether that is a 10 NM diameter or radius bubble. If radius, then I contact the agency at 10 NM DME from the carrier, but if it's diameter, then I would contact at 5 DME. I'm just a little confused with which it is.

 

 

2. I've read that when entering the CASE I stack, it's preferred that aircraft enter at either position 1 or 3, but that aircraft can enter from any heading. So, say the carrier's BRC is 000, and I'm entering from the north east, flying a heading of approximately 220. What cues do I use to know when to start turning so I don't fly too far into the stack or fly past it? If I enter at Point 1, I just align my TACAN with the BRC and fly offset to starboard of the carrier, like the break, but at my assigned altitude instead of 800 feet. If I enter at Point 3, I start turning when my DME reads 5.0. It's in those other in-between points I'm curious about.

 

 

3. I've read on the forums here that when exiting the CASE I stack, your commence heading should be BRC plus 210 degrees (or the reciprocal of BRC plus 30 degrees, however you want to look at it), descend to 800 feet, accelerate to 350 knots, and turn to intercept the BRC at or before 3NM aft of the carrier for the Initial. Now, when should I begin my turn towards Initial? My current procedure is (Carrier is BRC 000) commence at 210 degrees, descend to 800, accelerate to 350 knots, and begin my turn at 6 NM (sometimes 7NM), turning at 30 degrees angle of bank. However, this rarely gets me lined up with BRC for the Initial without some serious tweaking in the last few seconds of the turn. What is the correct or preferred procedure? Also, when do I accelerate to 350 knots? As soon as I commence? Once I hit 800 feet? At the initial?

 

 

4. Finally, I understand that the spin pattern is 1,200 feet, and the climb/descent procedure, but what is the spin airspeed? Is it 250, 350, on-speed, or something else?

 

 

Again, sorry for the barrage of questions, but I really want to get all this figured out before the SC drops. I've been flying the Hornet and stock Stennis since day one, but I really want to get on the ball (pun intended) for the SC.

 

 

Thanks and stay safe and healthy!!

 

Creepy did a great job answering.

 

With regards to question 3: as Creepy said, 210 degrees is written down in the book but in practice the answer is “whatever it takes.” I don’t think I’ve ever actually went to 210 degrees. This goes for pretty much everything Case 1. Once you commence, there is so exact VSI or speed or G or AOB to reference when making this work. It’s all “whatever it takes” to be where you are supposed to be, at the right time, and properly space yourself with other airplanes. Did you misjudge your commence and need to give yourself a 4 mile initial? Go for it. Are you late and you need to pull a couple of extra Gs to get to the initial? Go for it. The procedures are deliberately vague in order to provide maximum flexibility.

 

I strongly encourage you to join Lex’s discord where we discuss these sorts of things. Link in his signature.

Edited May 18, 2020 by G B

[majapahit]

..

3. The key phrase for starting the descent is “abaft abeam”... so Point 3 or aft. Book answer is the 210 relative, but it’s really just a make it work for the given scenario (I personally am in a constant shallow turn that tightens to about 30-35 degrees with about 90 degrees to go when aligning for the 3nm initial behind the ship. Most people accept to 300 from Point 3 to the initial and then hit 350 inside the initial... but you can use your left hand as required to control spacing.

..

Ehh, what happened to 'Charlie' at '3'?

 

Also, I can remember (from a military blog or something) check-in with the boat is not 'marchall' or 'tower' but a callsign specific to the boat (the boats long distance traffic contoller)?

 

Anyone here happens to know how that works?

[maxTRX]

Ehh, what happened to 'Charlie' at '3'?

 

Also, I can remember (from a military blog or something) check-in with the boat is not 'marchall' or 'tower' but a callsign specific to the boat (the boats long distance traffic contoller)?

 

Anyone here happens to know how that works?

 

If one day ED gets carried away they might throw in 'Red Crown' and 'Strike' control. These might not even be located on the carrier.

Carrier specific callsigns... yea, there is this famous audio recording floating on YT where you can hear 'Freedom marshal...' (Freedom = Reagan)

This is all caseIII

[Yoda967]

Red Crown is not a carrier function, it's the callsign for the unit providing Positive Identification Radar Advisory Zone (PIRAZ) services.

 

Red Crown's job is to maintain a fused multi-source tactical picture for the aircraft in the area, which means a mix of ATC (think region center, not airfield) and Air Intercept Control. Think of it as a gap-filler for AWACS, which is always spread kinda thin.

 

On the CG in the Gulf during Operation SOUTHERN WATCH, we had to provide PIRAZ after the AWACS on station suffered an explosive decompression and the alert AWACS wouldn't launch for 3.5 hours. Our AICs only controlled Air Force aircraft then because the carrier was down off Somalia and we were "alone and unafraid" in the Gulf. At the time, the Iraqis would wait until our CAP aircraft were tanking and then make a run into the No Fly Zone, and our AICs logged a few intercepts before AWACS was back on station.

[majapahit]

Red Crown is not a carrier function, it's the callsign for the unit providing Positive Identification Radar Advisory Zone (PIRAZ) services. (Actually Gripes323 said this somewhat)

You happen to know how pilots check-in with their boat because it can't be 'Tower', can it now.

[G B]

You happen to know how pilots check-in with their boat because it can't be 'Tower', can it now.

 

Yes it is called Tower.

 

Case 1: Marshall to tower

 

Case 2: Marshall to approach to tower

 

Case 3: Marshall to approach. (Air Boss will also be on approach frequency).

 

The LSO is waiting for you on tower or approach frequency (whichever is final) when you get there.

Edited May 19, 2020 by G B

[majapahit]

Yes it is called Tower.

 

Case 1: Marshall to tower

 

Case 2: Marshall to approach to tower

 

Case 3: Marshall to approach. (Air Boss will also be on approach frequency).

 

The LSO is waiting for you on tower or approach frequency (whichever is final) when you get there.

OK that's unexpectedly weird.

THX.

[victorlima01]

Hopefully one of the guys will respond. For this sort of thing, I like to go to the NATOPS documents, and mention them in case you weren't aware of them:

 

 

 

 

I can't find any mention of the speed in the spin, so assume it's pilot's discretion. 300 - 350 kts works well for me.

 

 

EDIT:

 

 

Pretty sure Creepy has proven to be one of the guys. :thumbup:

[Jetguy06]

I apologize for the delay, but I just wanted to say thanks for all the help! You guys are really worth your weight in gold on these forums.

 

 

I do have two more questions, though, that I thought of after my OP:

 

 

1. When calling state, whether approaching for the marshal or calling the ball, do you only give fuel state, or fuel state plus ordnance still on the jet? For example, if I call the ball and my fuel state is 4.0, but I also still have 700 pounds of bombs/missiles/empty tanks onboard, do I call 4.0 or 4.7? (I know the ball call and approaching state are automatic with the SC, but I'm asking for realism/accuracy's sake).

 

 

2. I've decided to call the Abe my home, and I want to populate the deck with accurate squadrons for the Abe's Carrier Air Wing for the approximate era of the ME's default date of 2011. Through some googling, I've found that in 2011, the Abe's CAW was CAW-2. CAWs can (and do, actually very often) change aircraft carriers if the carrier changes home port or for a variety of other reasons.

 

 

Wikipedia (I know, I know... but it's the only source I could find, hence the question) says that CAW-2's strike fighter portion is currently comprised of VFA-2 Bounty Hunters, VFA-113 Stingers, VFA-147 Argonauts, and VFA-192 Golden Dragons. But were those squadrons in CAW-2 in 2011 or do strike fighter squadrons change CAWs like CAWs change aircraft carriers, or are they more permanent? Is there a definitive place that can tell me what squadrons were in what CAWs at what time, other than Wiki?

 

 

Thanks again for all the help, and I swear, there won't be many more questions, if any at all.

[Tholozor]

CVW-2 in 2011 consisted of:

• 1xx VFA-2 (18F)
  
• 2xx VFA-137 (18E)
  
• 3xx VFA-151 (18C)
  
• 4xx VFA-34 (18C)
  

I made myself a massive Google Sheet with each CVW for each year, what carrier they were on, and what squadrons they had embarked with what modex number. Still a WIP though, need to finish the VAQ, VAW, HS, VS, and VRC squadrons.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Tholozor

[Jetguy06]

CVW-2 in 2011 consisted of:

• 1xx VFA-2 (18F)
  
• 2xx VFA-137 (18E)
  
• 3xx VFA-151 (18C)
  
• 4xx VFA-34 (18C)
  

I made myself a massive Google Sheet with each CVW for each year, what carrier they were on, and what squadrons they had embarked with what modex number. Still a WIP though, need to finish the VAQ, VAW, HS, VS, and VRC squadrons.

 

 

Thanks, man! That's great stuff. Did you get the info for the spreadsheet from Wiki or some other source?

[Razor18]

Question, if not overloaded yet :D

 

On a lot of launch videos, the Shooter, after the pilot's salute, does NOT touches the deck then pointing forward approving the launch, just holds the thumb up after checking out if the other safety personal are all raised their thumbs too.

 

 

In this, at 1:00 for instance

 

 

 

 

After watching tons of videos trying to find the reason or procedure leading to this event, I suspect this happens maybe if the bubble is raised, and the catapult personel inside the bubble can see the Shooter on deck and all the safety guys, so they can give another check around, before pushing the Launch button.

 

Or what is the reason for the thumbs up only? Guess it's not just swagger... :D

 

Another question: from how many places can the launch initiated, in fact the button pressed. From the bubble for sure, but I'm not sure I always see a bubble raised during the launch. Am I wrong, or is the bubble just one option to push the button from? Any other option, and what decides, which they use?

 

Then sometimes you can see guys sitting on the edge of holes in the deck, facing back with a shield opened backwards, and having the aircraft's wing wooshing overhead as they are launched. What are they doing?

 

Your insight is, as always, highly appreciated

 

I don't mind if others who know, chime in too tough...

Edited May 22, 2020 by Razor18

[Tholozor]

Thanks, man! That's great stuff. Did you get the info for the spreadsheet from Wiki or some other source?

 

http://www.seaforces.org/ was the primary source, it's an absolute treasure trove of reference imagery.

[Razor18]

 

1. When calling state, whether approaching for the marshal or calling the ball, do you only give fuel state, or fuel state plus ordnance still on the jet?

 

 

Not to put myself in any of the Honourable Gentlemen's shoes, but I'm pretty sure you give always your fuel state, as on the IFEI total. Even if it is in lbs and not gallons or whatever (as opposed to russian jets in liter I guess), the ship doesn't care too much about your weight (whether adding unused ordnance weight in your question), but rather wants to know how much fuel (thus "time airborne") you have left before they will have to send you to refuel or divert.

 

And you don't care too much about your weight eigther, in so much as you will need to trimm to on speed AoA anyways, which will consider your actual weight in the process.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Razor18

[G B]

I apologize for the delay, but I just wanted to say thanks for all the help! You guys are really worth your weight in gold on these forums.

 

 

I do have two more questions, though, that I thought of after my OP:

 

 

1. When calling state, whether approaching for the marshal or calling the ball, do you only give fuel state, or fuel state plus ordnance still on the jet? For example, if I call the ball and my fuel state is 4.0, but I also still have 700 pounds of bombs/missiles/empty tanks onboard, do I call 4.0 or 4.7? (I know the ball call and approaching state are automatic with the SC, but I'm asking for realism/accuracy's sake).

 

 

2. I've decided to call the Abe my home, and I want to populate the deck with accurate squadrons for the Abe's Carrier Air Wing for the approximate era of the ME's default date of 2011. Through some googling, I've found that in 2011, the Abe's CAW was CAW-2. CAWs can (and do, actually very often) change aircraft carriers if the carrier changes home port or for a variety of other reasons.

 

 

Wikipedia (I know, I know... but it's the only source I could find, hence the question) says that CAW-2's strike fighter portion is currently comprised of VFA-2 Bounty Hunters, VFA-113 Stingers, VFA-147 Argonauts, and VFA-192 Golden Dragons. But were those squadrons in CAW-2 in 2011 or do strike fighter squadrons change CAWs like CAWs change aircraft carriers, or are they more permanent? Is there a definitive place that can tell me what squadrons were in what CAWs at what time, other than Wiki?

 

 

Thanks again for all the help, and I swear, there won't be many more questions, if any at all.

 

How much fuel is in the jet. Read off the IFEI.

[G B]

Question, if not overloaded yet :D

 

On a lot of launch videos, the Shooter, after the pilot's salute, does NOT touches the deck then pointing forward approving the launch, just holds the thumb up after checking out if the other safety personal are all raised their thumbs too.

 

 

In this, at 1:00 for instance

 

 

 

 

After watching tons of videos trying to find the reason or procedure leading to this event, I suspect this happens maybe if the bubble is raised, and the catapult personel inside the bubble can see the Shooter on deck and all the safety guys, so they can give another check around, before pushing the Launch button.

 

Or what is the reason for the thumbs up only? Guess it's not just swagger... :D

 

Another question: from how many places can the launch initiated, in fact the button pressed. From the bubble for sure, but I'm not sure I always see a bubble raised during the launch. Am I wrong, or is the bubble just one option to push the button from? Any other option, and what decides, which they use?

 

Then sometimes you can see guys sitting on the edge of holes in the deck, facing back with a shield opened backwards, and having the aircraft's wing wooshing overhead as they are launched. What are they doing?

 

Your insight is, as always, highly appreciated

 

I don't mind if others who know, chime in too tough...

 

Look at the pants. The dark blue pants indicates an enlisted sailor. Khaki pants would indicate an Officer (all shooters are Officers). It depends if the shooters are working Topside or in the bubble. If they are topside than they are on the flight deck like you’re used to seeing in many videos and the DCS SC. If they’re in the bubble, a qualified enlisted sailor can do many of the same functions, then pass that information via a thumbs up to the bubble.

[Jetguy06]

How much fuel is in the jet. Read off the IFEI.

 

Ok, so if you're coming back with extra ordnance/stores, how does the arresting gear crew know the proper weight to put in for recovery? As I understand it, if they configure the wires for too low a weight, you could run the wire out and go for a premature swim, since the wires didn't have enough tension put on.

[Jetguy06]

http://www.seaforces.org/ was the primary source, it's an absolute treasure trove of reference imagery.

 

Thank you, dude!! Just a quick two-minute glance at this site had me blown out of the water. It really is a treasure trove. I'm bookmarking it for sure!!

[G B]

Ok, so if you're coming back with extra ordnance/stores, how does the arresting gear crew know the proper weight to put in for recovery? As I understand it, if they configure the wires for too low a weight, you could run the wire out and go for a premature swim, since the wires didn't have enough tension put on.

 

The arresting gear is to a single weight setting. Each aircraft has their own single weight setting, so all they have to do is set it to “hornet” or “tomcat” or whatever.

 

The only time specific weight settings are required are for emergencies with nonstandard configurations and speeds.

 

Again, the arresting gear is NOT set by your weight at the trap. Your responsibility is to make sure you are below max trap weight when you land. You call the ball with your actual fuel state to have everyone see how close you are to needing to tank or bingo. It’s for fuel tracking purposes.

Edited May 23, 2020 by G B

[Jetguy06]

The arresting gear is to a single weight setting. Each aircraft has their own single weight setting, so all they have to do is set it to “hornet” or “tomcat” or whatever.

 

The only time specific weight settings are required are for emergencies with nonstandard configurations and speeds.

 

Again, the arresting gear is NOT set by your weight at the trap. Your responsibility is to make sure you are below max trap weight when you land. You call the ball with your actual fuel state to have everyone see how close you are to needing to tank or bingo. It’s for fuel tracking purposes.

 

Ah, I see now. Makes sense. Thanks for the info!

[Razor18]

Hi There,

 

in this video at 2:10 you can see two greenshirts, one in the foreground sitting in a hole, another on the deck edge. What are these guys doing in the launch process, and what is the yellowshirt cheking on green shirt #1's panel?

 

 

At 2:40 both greenshirt mentioned giving the thumbs up just prior to launch, then #2 right on the deck edge presses some button apparently. Is he shooting in fact the aircraft on the Shooters signal?

 

Thanks