fixed G-LOC too easy...

[darkman222]

Now I finally tried it. Disable G-Lock.

 

You can't do it on servers of course.

 

But I have built some 1v1 missions for myself for training. F16 vs ***. And without the totally unfit pilot we currently have in the cockpit, I finally could do, what the Viper is known for. Full afterburner and out-turn the opponent.

 

Before I disabled glock, I struggled against an expert AI F18 a lot. But today, without g-lock, a two circle fight, and 2 turns later he was history.

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong. I didn't just pull 9G all the time the fight was going on. I managed to pull 9 Gs for 5 maybe 10 seconds. Then my energy was bled down and I had to go back to 7 Gs or less.

 

 

The F16 might still have a lots of issues during early access. But the unfit pilot is the biggest one I guess.

 

KPenn. I feel like we currently just have two pilot models. One with and one without g-suit. One of those sits in every DCS aircraft.

Edited May 25, 2020 by darkman222

[Sideburns]

Now I finally tried it. Disable G-Lock.

 

You can't do it on servers of course.

 

But I have built some 1v1 missions for myself for training. F16 vs ***. And without the totally unfit pilot we currently have in the cockpit, I finally could do, what the Viper is known for. Full afterburner and out-turn the opponent.

 

Before I disabled glock, I struggled against an expert AI F18 a lot. But today, without g-lock, a two circle fight, and 2 turns later he was history.

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong. I didn't just pull 9G all the time the fight was going on. I managed to pull 9 Gs for 5 maybe 10 seconds. Then my energy was bled down and I had to go back to 7 Gs or less.

 

 

The F16 might still have a lots of issues during early access. But the unfit pilot is the biggest one I guess.

 

KPenn. I feel like we currently just have two pilot models. One with and one without g-suit. One of those sits in every DCS aircraft.

 

This is it, did pretty much the same thing. Disabled G-lock single player, practices some turns, reviewed in tacview. The F16 itself seems to be performing well enough, not so much the pilot G-lock modelling. I had guessed the same, that we currently have a G-lock model across all aircraft and effort would be required to implement aircraft specific G-lock modelling.

[deadpool]

This is it, did pretty much the same thing. Disabled G-lock single player, practices some turns, reviewed in tacview. The F16 itself seems to be performing well enough, not so much the pilot G-lock modelling. I had guessed the same, that we currently have a G-lock model across all aircraft and effort would be required to implement aircraft specific G-lock modelling.

 

Thank god when buying an aircraft you're not paying for that effort :-D

[stormrider]

Well, for the price they charge for it, it should be included already.

[Smokehouse]

Yea that's why I turn G-Loc off. I have flown in the Viper and done 9 G's and I didn't pass out. The acft is designed for sustained 9G's which was determined the max sustained G that a human can sustain and still be functional. In the real world its a matter of pilot conditioning and preparation.

[Zergburger]

Well the model needs to also take into account some other factors such as G onset rate, time since g warmup, amount of time at high G, and amount of time at high negative G. You totally could blackout after 9G after only a few seconds if you add on that G really quickly and your piolt is already tired from doing 9G's already. Now our understanding of Gloc has come a long way and modern Gsuits give a trained piolt around 8.3G sustained for a many minutes at least and at best up to 9G's for a max of a few min (source below) assuming the full lower body G-suits and Positive pressure breathing became a thing. But just making it so you black out slower at 9G is not necessarily accurate there's a lot of factors at play. In short it will probably take a while to do right and ED has already said their working on it. Now not sure if that means we'll get to it in a few years or its actually being worked on but still give it time. https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a296761.pdf

THIS

 

 

I see so many of these GLOC threads it's laughable at this point, peeps in the eagle pull 13 instant onset G then wonder why they GLOC in under 3 seconds.

 

Not to mention that the Viper pilot should have a much greater tolerance to high G with a seat that is tilted 30 degrees back. Also, the pilot's feet are higher than the buttocks, so that the blood does not drain to such an extent from the upper body. When will we finally feel that the Viper pilot tolerates high G better?

Theres a few reasons no jets after the viper have such a silly angle on the seat. It doesn't alleviate G as much as internet fan boys wish it did, and it causes a fair amount of other problems, mostly associated with neck positioning.

Exactly. This guy does 10 seconds at 12G and I can't pull 8G for 3 seconds in DCS:

i dont know about you, but i've been on roller coasters and had the grey out, and thats 4-5g. You probably couldn't pull 9g, i probably couldn't pull 9g, cherry picking 1 super human that can do some dragon ball z level shit doesn't really do much for your argument.

F15 is particularly bad and is worse than the F16 and F18 btw.

Actually, DCS is pretty mild when you compare it to the real simulations of what a high speed eagle pulling max deflection would do to the jet and pilot. (hint: be happy your wings stay on, and 13g is the max you can pull)

Thank god when buying an aircraft you're not paying for that effort :-D

when you take it big picture, GLOC is a small issue compared to some of the other glaring things in the sim. netcode, drag modelling, damage modelling, and much else comes to mind.

[Jester2138]

i dont know about you, but i've been on roller coasters and had the grey out, and thats 4-5g. You probably couldn't pull 9g, i probably couldn't pull 9g, cherry picking 1 super human that can do some dragon ball z level shit doesn't really do much for your argument.

 

You don't become a fighter pilot if you gray out at just 4-5 G lol.

[85th_Maverick]

.. Now not sure if that means we'll get to it in a few years or its actually being worked on but still give it time. https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a296761.pdf

 

Thanks "nightwawk"! So ED are finally finally thinking to improve the G effects according to before and after warmup periods as well as an averaged best possible number of seconds before a trained pilot blacks out at 9G, when starting from a relatively rapid onset. We've seen a lot of YT tests on which pilots can stand at even 12 vertical Gs for almost 15 seconds..., but for all these years our DCS pilot blacks out (even after warmup, it doesn't make much difference) in 5-6 seconds at just 9. But interestingly enough, most of the DCS pilots have learned to abuse the G effects model such that even with or without warmup, if they go and hold no more than 7.9Gs, they can keep that forever without actually blacking out even if initially the screen becomes black and eventually, some 10 or more seconds later while still holding 7.9Gs, the screen starts lighting up and you'll almost see normal, while still holding 7.9 for good. I just wanted to remind that aspect!

[85th_Maverick]

...i dont know about you, but i've been on roller coasters and had the grey out, and thats 4-5g... I probably couldn't pull 9g, cherry picking 1 super human that can do some dragon ball z level shit doesn't really do much for your argument.

 

 

You surely, not probably, need to train more!

[backstab]

I think you should be limited to the g an untrained average civilian can sustain for all planes. Say 4-5.5 G for 15 seconds and then you are out like a light. Real life. If you want more G you choose the plane and you subscribe to a monthly G tolerance program. 5 dollars per month for an extra .5 G beginning at 5.5 and ending at 9. After you max out at 9 G you can then pay the same per extra second you can remain awake at your 9 G limit. So you kids that want to rip on the stick but couldn't possibly hope to do in real life can pay 35 dollars per month per plane to get to 9.

 

Wait. I just thought of something. Maybe you subscribe to DCS with your credit card and pay for fuel and weapons and repairs. Say 25 cents per weapon and 2 cents per hundred pounds of fuel taken from ground and 5 cents from tanker. Pull more than 5.5 G and a surcharge is put on you per second per extra G above 5.5. Say 5 cents per second. Can you imagine how this would make the game more realistic. Wow Think of the revenue all those afterburner spamram junkies would generate for you guys. Maybe you could hire more people and they could deliver the rest of the planes I have paid for.

I think this is my best idea yet.

Edited May 29, 2020 by backstab

[deadpool]

First of all, F-35 and F-22 also have more reclined seats, although not to the extreme point of the Viper.

 

And now for the helpful bits:

 

In DCS it seems you can exceed limits for a brief moment of time (~3 seconds) before your pilot seems to lapse into dreamland.

F-14 and other jets can use those 3 seconds to get to whatever amounts of g instantly.

The Viper - contrary to literature - is really taking a damn long time building up the gs .. so you can't use that "spike" effectively either.

 

There are a couple of other bits in the viper that help in high-g conditions.

A good G-suit

The reclined seat (although if what I heard is correct that's mainly as blood doesn't collect that much in the legs due to the specific leg angles? no source on that though)

And the overpressure mask that helps to get air into your lungs when pulling gs.

 

Should they give the viper-driver a slight edge? yeah ..

 

Right now this whole G issue (combined with some engine performance and onset stuff) is what makes the F-16 quite teethless in dogfights. The regime you're supposed to be good in .. is not accessible. Thanks a bunch.

 

 

And because you brought up other planes, Zergburger,

This is a game and aspects like the crew chief yelling at you, or the airframe being worth scrap after you bring it home aren't modelled.

This means the G-Override button in the FA18 is almost constantly pressed.

This means the F-14 pilots don't give a cent about their INS, their Flaps, their wing sweep mechanism, or stress fractures.

 

And that's something they get away with. And by that they are put in a place where they are able to pull more G than the viper driver.

 

Yet another laugh and spit in the face in terms of realism. But hey, there are other games where this is modelled correctly. This is something that needs serious rework before the F-16 is usable in dogfights against anyone but beginners.

[Sideburns]

First of all, F-35 and F-22 also have more reclined seats, although not to the extreme point of the Viper.

 

And now for the helpful bits:

 

In DCS it seems you can exceed limits for a brief moment of time (~3 seconds) before your pilot seems to lapse into dreamland.

F-14 and other jets can use those 3 seconds to get to whatever amounts of g instantly.

The Viper - contrary to literature - is really taking a damn long time building up the gs .. so you can't use that "spike" effectively either.

 

There are a couple of other bits in the viper that help in high-g conditions.

A good G-suit

The reclined seat (although if what I heard is correct that's mainly as blood doesn't collect that much in the legs due to the specific leg angles? no source on that though)

And the overpressure mask that helps to get air into your lungs when pulling gs.

 

Should they give the viper-driver a slight edge? yeah ..

 

Right now this whole G issue (combined with some engine performance and onset stuff) is what makes the F-16 quite teethless in dogfights. The regime you're supposed to be good in .. is not accessible. Thanks a bunch.

 

 

And because you brought up other planes, Zergburger,

This is a game and aspects like the crew chief yelling at you, or the airframe being worth scrap after you bring it home aren't modelled.

This means the G-Override button in the FA18 is almost constantly pressed.

This means the F-14 pilots don't give a cent about their INS, their Flaps, their wing sweep mechanism, or stress fractures.

 

And that's something they get away with. And by that they are put in a place where they are able to pull more G than the viper driver.

 

Yet another laugh and spit in the face in terms of realism. But hey, there are other games where this is modelled correctly. This is something that needs serious rework before the F-16 is usable in dogfights against anyone but beginners.

 

A good summary of the issues. I would only add in defence of the F14 that flap damage modelling has been indicated as coming soon which should hopefully put people off using high speed full out flaps when they know they will get stuck out with the wings.

[kingsnake11]

Just my 2 cents worth here. I do know that to be an f-16 pilot, g-strain training is a must to qualify. I knew a tough athletic guy who would pass out at 6 g's on the centrifuge no matter what he did... just his body and couldn't do the strain. You need to strain able to sustain 9 g's for a short while to fly a 16.

 

I'm not happy with the way the 16 is modeled in DCS either. There is a big difference between sustained and instantaneous g's. What the real f-16 can do is sustain a high g turn much longer than most other aircraft...ie doesn't bleed off energy because it has a high specific excess power. So an f-16 with two winders and two amraams, half a tank of gas , at 380-420 knots indicated should be able to sustain a 6 g turn without loosing a lot of velocity through 360 degrees in zone 5 afterburner. What I find in DCS is that it looses energy at a super high rate. Compare that to the way they modeled that mig-21... it's a killer in the sim because it doesn't seem to loose energy. In real life, the delta winged 21 looses a lot of energy in high g turns and that's why they are trained to do fast GCI and run tactics. Also in real life.the F-16 has accumulated an impressive number of kills, and can basically beat just about anything out there in a dogfight when competently flown. Mind you, an F-15 is a tough one to beat because of it's high excess energy too. The 16, with all the nonsense about the reclined seat has very good visibility, especially in a close in dogfight where you want to put your lift vector on the opponent. Seeing him is pretty useful. Compare again to the nig-21 with the clunky visibility, yet they never seem to fail to properly turn into you without loosing energy. Regardless, I'm the old fashioned type that would prefer to put a missile into somebodies face at long distance than give somebody a chance to get lucky up close. :-)

 

...and in spite of sounding too critical about the modelling, in fact, by in large, DCS has done a pretty good job, and I'm optimistic that they will eventually fix some of these issues.

ks

[eWildcat]

THIS

Theres a few reasons no jets after the viper have such a silly angle on the seat.

 

 

The Rafale has it : 29°.

[GSXMatt]

Hey everybody, so I haven't read a whole lot of the thread but noticed this last night on Giggles stream. The G-LOC is a little wonky in the Viper.

 

So I'm just a normalish guy. Been in the Air Force for 13 years, not especially athletic although not out of shape. The last 2 years I've been an F-16 GIB. I went to centerfuge with zero strain training. The 9G profile is required to fly in the 16. Take this for what its worth, but a dude who had just learned what a G strain was, then thrown into a centerfuge where I would do sustained 9G did not G-LOC. I barely even lost vision. Squeeze the butt, push out the stomach, and breathe right.

 

Now after two years of lots of BFM flights, it's laughable how off the Viper G-LOC seems. Also to the guy who said the feet are above my butt, at least in the backseat that is not the case. Maybe if it was 6 foot 2ish and had the seat ran all the way down. But I'm 5 foot 8ish on a good day, so I run the seat all the way up or until I can put a fist between the canopy and my helmet.

 

I'm not an expert, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

[Contact409]

Hey everybody, so I haven't read a whole lot of the thread but noticed this last night on Giggles stream. The G-LOC is a little wonky in the Viper.

 

So I'm just a normalish guy. Been in the Air Force for 13 years, not especially athletic although not out of shape. The last 2 years I've been an F-16 GIB. I went to centerfuge with zero strain training. The 9G profile is required to fly in the 16. Take this for what its worth, but a dude who had just learned what a G strain was, then thrown into a centerfuge where I would do sustained 9G did not G-LOC. I barely even lost vision. Squeeze the butt, push out the stomach, and breathe right.

 

Now after two years of lots of BFM flights, it's laughable how off the Viper G-LOC seems. Also to the guy who said the feet are above my butt, at least in the backseat that is not the case. Maybe if it was 6 foot 2ish and had the seat ran all the way down. But I'm 5 foot 8ish on a good day, so I run the seat all the way up or until I can put a fist between the canopy and my helmet.

 

I'm not an expert, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

That`s good info. :thumbup:

 

Got one question for you Matt, to anybody who wants to qualify to fly the F16,

is there a time requirement like how long they need to be conscious under 9g to pass the test ?

[Theodore42]

Guys they fixed this months ago.

 

You can go 80 seconds at 8Gs without blacking out.

 

I seem to recall from the F-16 pilot collaborating to write the F 4.0 manual said the goal for pilots was to sustain 8Gs for 90 seconds (The F-16 in that game maxed out at 8 Gs). I'm skeptical at the notion that a pilot is going to sustain much more than 9 Gs for multiple seconds and then be able to make split second decisions and sustain 8Gs in a dogfight.

 

After a G warm up, 80 seconds at 8Gs:

 

 

in reference to this:

 

Thanks "nightwawk"! So ED are finally finally thinking to improve the G effects according to before and after warmup periods as well as an averaged best possible number of seconds before a trained pilot blacks out at 9G, when starting from a relatively rapid onset. We've seen a lot of YT tests on which pilots can stand at even 12 vertical Gs for almost 15 seconds..., but for all these years our DCS pilot blacks out (even after warmup, it doesn't make much difference) in 5-6 seconds at just 9. But interestingly enough, most of the DCS pilots have learned to abuse the G effects model such that even with or without warmup, if they go and hold no more than 7.9Gs, they can keep that forever without actually blacking out even if initially the screen becomes black and eventually, some 10 or more seconds later while still holding 7.9Gs, the screen starts lighting up and you'll almost see normal, while still holding 7.9 for good. I just wanted to remind that aspect!

 

Every pilot's physical ability is going to vary from pilot to pilot and day to day. And there is no way to simulate decision making with all the blood drained out the simmer's brain, nor is there a way to simulate the amount of focus required to perform such athletic feats. For those of you who have trained athletically, don't you agree that there is more to training than just moving your muscles in a specific way? If you haven't trained athletically, I assure you there is a mental wall you have to break as well as physical, which takes effort and focus. And that cannot be simulated on our PCs.

 

I therefore give ED a lot of leeway in simulating the G effects experienced by the pilot.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Theodore42

[Airhunter]

Guys they fixed this months ago.

 

You can go 80 seconds at 8Gs without blacking out.

 

I seem to recall from the F-16 pilot collaborating to write the F 4.0 manual said the goal for pilots was to sustain 8Gs for 90 seconds (The F-16 in that game maxed out at 8 Gs). I'm skeptical at the notion that a pilot is going to sustain much more than 9 Gs for multiple seconds and then be able to make split second decisions and sustain 8Gs in a dogfight.

 

After a G warm up, 80 seconds at 8Gs:

 

 

in reference to this:

 

 

 

Every pilot's physical ability is going to vary from pilot to pilot and day to day. And there is no way to simulate decision making with all the blood drained out the simmer's brain, nor is there a way to simulate the amount of focus required to perform such athletic feats. For those of you who have trained athletically, don't you agree that there is more to training than just moving your muscles in a specific way? If you haven't trained athletically, I assure you there is a mental wall you have to break as well as physical, which takes effort and focus. And that cannot be simulated on our PCs.

 

I therefore give ED a lot of leeway in simulating the G effects experienced by the pilot.

 

I think the guy in the video simply used the "reduced" g-load option in the game options. Th regular "realisitc" one is still the same as before. At least in my experience. Otherwise people wouldn't complain anymore.

[GSXMatt]

That`s good info. :thumbup:

 

Got one question for you Matt, to anybody who wants to qualify to fly the F16,

is there a time requirement like how long they need to be conscious under 9g to pass the test ?

 

You need to be able to pass the 9G profile, which works you up to 9G over 6? profiles. The last profile is a continuous 30 second G strain that ramps. Starts at 9G, drops to 3G, jumps back up to 9G, drops to 3G and then goes up to 9G again until the end. It's hellish, but 9Gs in the fuge feels different than 9Gs in a jet.

[Contact409]

You need to be able to pass the 9G profile, which works you up to 9G over 6? profiles. The last profile is a continuous 30 second G strain that ramps. Starts at 9G, drops to 3G, jumps back up to 9G, drops to 3G and then goes up to 9G again until the end. It's hellish, but 9Gs in the fuge feels different than 9Gs in a jet.

 

Got it. so For the last part goes up to 9g until the end. how long is about that time?

I`m trying to establishe a reference on this thing...so we can at least have some guide line for developers.

 

So from your experience, 9G in the fuge is harder to handle or 9G in the jet harder to handle ?

 

Thanks, it`s all good info.:thumbup::thumbup:

[GSXMatt]

Got it. so For the last part goes up to 9g until the end. how long is about that time?

I`m trying to establishe a reference on this thing...so we can at least have some guide line for developers.

 

So from your experience, 9G in the fuge is harder to handle or 9G in the jet harder to handle ?

 

Thanks, it`s all good info.:thumbup::thumbup:

 

 

The last ramp is 10 seconds of 9G and you must stay conscious without losing vision to pass. G's are easier to handle in the jet.

[raptr12]

Just came back to say, thanks ED. Only took 4 years.

[85th_Maverick]

On 5/29/2020 at 8:08 AM, backstab said:

I think you should be limited to the g an untrained average civilian can sustain for all planes. Say 4-5.5 G for 15 seconds and then you are out like a light. Real life. If you want more G you choose the plane and you subscribe to a monthly G tolerance program. 5 dollars per month for an extra .5 G beginning at 5.5 and ending at 9. After you max out at 9 G you can then pay the same per extra second you can remain awake at your 9 G limit. So you kids that want to rip on the stick but couldn't possibly hope to do in real life can pay 35 dollars per month per plane to get to 9.

 

Wait. I just thought of something. Maybe you subscribe to DCS with your credit card and pay for fuel and weapons and repairs. Say 25 cents per weapon and 2 cents per hundred pounds of fuel taken from ground and 5 cents from tanker. Pull more than 5.5 G and a surcharge is put on you per second per extra G above 5.5. Say 5 cents per second. Can you imagine how this would make the game more realistic. Wow Think of the revenue all those afterburner spamram junkies would generate for you guys. Maybe you could hire more people and they could deliver the rest of the planes I have paid for.

I think this is my best idea yet.

 

Thanks for the troll, but I'm not into that! Your name on the other hand may actually explain your reply! The subject was about how the G tolerance effect is simulated in terms of G value versus seconds versus light and/or color loss from the pilot's eyes. Even today, after some tweaks of within the code's values regarding this functions being simulated, the "warmed up" for G tolerance simulated DCS pilot still can never reach even 8 seconds from the moment he reached 9G on a high rate G onset (so that it won't take long to reach 9) to the moment the blackout occurs, compared, again, to the real world where the same TRAINED pilot MUST be able to withstand at least some 12-15 seconds before passing out. It's not me saying it, it's the training program for US fighter pilots which can set that minimum 15 seconds at 9G condition in order to be allowed to fly the real jet. "Wait, I just thought of something." They do that on a vertical seat and most pilots who train are still able to pass that 15 seconds 9G mark, while on their real jets, their seat is more or less backwards inclined which further helps reduce the unwanted effect.

One like you who seems to only be concerned by $ in his eyes, which has nothing to do with the subject in question, is indeed not interested in the realism issue for this subject after all! Your "wanna reply something to try to make myself interesting with nonsense or just to try and make a foul of myself" attempt is intrinsic in it's way! So, next time you try to reply on a subject and you think you understood the subject, think of it as something truly useful, or you can remain a troll if that's your desire!

 

Have a good day!

Edited May 15, 2024 by 85th_Maverick

[85th_Maverick]

On 5/31/2020 at 3:14 PM, GSXMatt said:

 

 

The last ramp is 10 seconds of 9G and you must stay conscious without losing vision to pass. G's are easier to handle in the jet.

Hmm, I knew of 15 seconds minimum at 9G, so maybe I took it wrong at some moment from some YTube G tolerance training videos statement. Heh, even so, 10 seconds at 9G which is something known as a minimum for true pilots is not a minimum for the DCS virtual pilot which even after 1 hour of standing at 7.9G continuously without G-LOC, is unable to pass 6 or 7 seconds without blackout after going from 1 to 9G in a 1 second onset. ED still has to tweak some more if they want it correctly!

[85th_Maverick]

On 5/31/2020 at 8:35 AM, Contact409 said:

 

Got it. so For the last part goes up to 9g until the end. how long is about that time?

I`m trying to establishe a reference on this thing...so we can at least have some guide line for developers.

 

So from your experience, 9G in the fuge is harder to handle or 9G in the jet harder to handle ?

 

Thanks, it`s all good info.:thumbup::thumbup:

Although asked someone else for it, I can also answer that logically, the centrifuge should be a bit harder as the training seat is almost vertical, while the one in the cockpit has some backwards lean to some degrees which does help! Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about the almost vertical training seat position!

About your question to Matt regarding the required G tolerance limits to become an F-16 pilot, I knew for years that it's a minimum 15 seconds at 9G without blackout out. Matt said 10 seconds and I don't know, perhaps each military set their own standards, as for a statement regarding the Hungarian pilots limit is as it's quoted here from a "Quora" (indeed, there is always a mix of true and false statements in the Quora replies): "Hungarian Gripen pilots before they can be certified has to be conscious for 15 seconds at 9G in a centrifuge. But this does not mean that for unlimited times they can perform such G resistance, pilots need relief." Here's the link:

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-maximum-number-of-Gs-that-an-F-16-can-take-without-causing-damage-to-the-plane-or-pilot

Cheers!