Naval Environment , ahead Flank ???

[toni]

Hey all,

we have already the Super Carrier in service,followed shortly by the Forrestal and several surface scorts from ED and third part devs. Now, is it time to start setting controlable ships by some dedicated team and keep improving maritime characteristics to its full potential by ED ?

[draconus]

They are controllable if you own Combined Arms. Or do you mean full ship sim?

[toni]

A branch focusing high detailed ships and full systems operation would be quite intersting. Hope it comes in a medium future.

[Northstar98]

Hmm, apart from maybe small craft they're out of scope in DCS World for the time being IMO.

 

What I would like to see however, is improved ships, with an improved AI.

 

Here's a fairly comprehensive list of features of my personal wishlist (that I'd be more than willing to pay for).

• Defensive manoeuvring
  
• Countermeasures
  
• Turning into the wind (on aircraft carriers)
  
• Ship formations (like with ground vehicles)
  
• Add fighter direction capability to ships/Red Crown (similar to a GCI), plus improved radio communications (SC was definitely an improvement, but there's still some way to go).
  
• Add missing weapons (namely the RIM-162 ESSM, RIM-174A Standard ERAM and RUM-139 VL-ASROC for the Mk41 VLS, not to mention torpedoes and rocket propelled depth charges like the RGB-60 for the RBU-6000 on plenty of Russian vessels (nearly all of them) and the 111SG and 111ZO rockets for the UDAV-1 on the Kuznetsov and Kirov
  
• Correct the ammunition & implement more round types for larger calibre naval artillery (only seems to have 1 type of ammunition also the Phalanx CIWS is using the wrong round).
  
• Loadout editor for multipurpose VLS (such as the Mk41 VLS on the Ticonderoga and Arleigh Burke)
  
• Correct ship RADARs (such as the AN/SPG-62 on the Arleigh-Burke-class DDG and Ticonderoga-class CG, which while animated on the former, are non-functional).
  
• Add the secondary AShM mode for RIM-66 and RIM-156 using SARH guidance (similar to P-STT in the Tomcat which can illuminate ships, allowing you to guide Sparrows at them).
  
• Correct ship naming and designations (e.g "USS Arleigh Burke IIa" -> Arleigh Burke-class Flt.IIA (early) DDG)
  
• Corrected weapon designations (e.g AGM-84S (doesn't exist) -> RGM-84D & BGM-109B (wrong variant) -> BGM-109C)
  

 

Later on there should be a vastly improved damage model - i.e ships sink realistically based on severity and location of damage. Individual external subsystems should be able to be destroyed. As well as improved fires and secondary effects from fires.

 

ED could also create a graphical damage model that actually reflects the exact location of major impacts in a similar fashion to SH4, whereby ships have a very basic interior, and impact textures reflect the actual location of where weapons hit.

 

All you'd need to do is create a basic, 3D interior (which can literally just be charred out low poly stuff, you'd only need to do bulkheads, floors, ceilings etc - not too dissimilar to what we have now). And then have a transparent texture (with maybe some charring around) be painted on the ship, where the weapon impacted - in the exact same fashion as craters painted on the ground, where weapons impact.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Northstar98

[amalahama]

Man, I launched Janes JF-18 to revive some old memories, and to my surprise, you can take out ship defenses with Harms, so Harpoon can get through their defence rings. Not even that is modeled today in DCS

Edited June 18, 2020 by amalahama

[Northstar98]

Yeah SF2:NA allowed you to do it to, you could destroy individual antennae with Shrikes and Standard ARMs, the antenna would stop functioning and would appear visibly damaged.

 

It was the same story with individual weapon mounts. Then again SF2:NA also had defensive manoeuvring for ships as well...

[Volator]

Hmm, apart from maybe small craft they're out of scope in DCS World for the time being IMO.

 

What I would like to see however, is improved ships, with an improved AI.

 

Here's a fairly comprehensive list of features of my personal wishlist (that I'd be more than willing to pay for).

• Defensive manoeuvring
  
• Countermeasures
  
• Turning into the wind (on aircraft carriers)
  
• Ship formations (like with ground vehicles)
  
• Add fighter direction capability to ships/Red Crown (similar to a GCI), plus improved radio communications (SC was definitely an improvement, but there's still some way to go).
  
• Add missing weapons (namely the RIM-162 ESSM, RIM-174A Standard ERAM and RUM-139 VL-ASROC for the Mk41 VLS, not to mention torpedoes and rocket propelled depth charges like the RGB-60 for the RBU-6000 on plenty of Russian vessels (nearly all of them) and the 111SG and 111ZO rockets for the UDAV-1 on the Kuznetsov and Kirov
  
• Correct the ammunition & implement more round types for larger calibre naval artillery (only seems to have 1 type of ammunition also the Phalanx CIWS is using the wrong round).
  
• Loadout editor for multipurpose VLS (such as the Mk41 VLS on the Ticonderoga and Arleigh Burke)
  
• Correct ship RADARs (such as the AN/SPG-62 on the Arleigh-Burke-class DDG and Ticonderoga-class CG, which while animated on the former, are non-functional).
  
• Add the secondary AShM mode for RIM-66 and RIM-156 using SARH guidance (similar to P-STT in the Tomcat which can illuminate ships, allowing you to guide Sparrows at them).
  
• Correct ship naming and designations (e.g "USS Arleigh Burke IIa" -> Arleigh Burke-class Flt.IIA (early) DDG)
  
• Corrected weapon designations (e.g AGM-84S (doesn't exist) -> RGM-84D & BGM-109B (wrong variant) -> BGM-109C)
  

 

Later on there should be a vastly improved damage model - i.e ships sink realistically based on severity and location of damage. Individual external subsystems should be able to be destroyed. As well as improved fires and secondary effects from fires.

 

ED could also create a graphical damage model that actually reflects the exact location of major impacts in a similar fashion to SH4, whereby ships have a very basic interior, and impact textures reflect the actual location of where weapons hit.

 

All you'd need to do is create a basic, 3D interior (which can literally just be charred out low poly stuff, you'd only need to do bulkheads, floors, ceilings etc - not too dissimilar to what we have now). And then have a transparent texture (with maybe some charring around) be painted on the ship, where the weapon impacted - in the exact same fashion as craters painted on the ground, where weapons impact.

 

I agree with everything above.

 

I'd like to add

• more AI ship models (civilian --> tankers PG map; military)
  
• a dedicated (US/western) naval helicopter as a full module (but without any ASW simulation initially, that would be too much to ask right now)
  

to the list.

 

I don't understand why ED has strengthened the naval aspect of DCS with the SC, the Hornet and possibly the PG map only to leave it like that and be totally non-communicative about their plans in that area.

[Harlikwin]

Yeah its pretty lame.

 

But ships are most sorely needing:

 

1. An actual non hitpoint damage model.

2. Actual multiple radar systems modeling (and the radar can be killed/damaged with ARM's)

3. Taking evasive maneuvers and using decoys

[amalahama]

Yeah its pretty lame.

 

But ships are most sorely needing:

 

1. An actual non hitpoint damage model.

2. Actual multiple radar systems modeling (and the radar can be killed/damaged with ARM's)

3. Taking evasive maneuvers and using decoys

 

I can live w/o number 3 (and probably doable to some extent with advance lua scripting in ME)

[pompomlion]

Hmm, apart from maybe small craft they're out of scope in DCS World for the time being IMO.

 

What I would like to see however, is improved ships, with an improved AI.

 

Here's a fairly comprehensive list of features of my personal wishlist (that I'd be more than willing to pay for).

• Defensive manoeuvring
  
• Countermeasures
  
• Turning into the wind (on aircraft carriers)
  
• Ship formations (like with ground vehicles)
  
• Add fighter direction capability to ships/Red Crown (similar to a GCI), plus improved radio communications (SC was definitely an improvement, but there's still some way to go).
  
• Add missing weapons (namely the RIM-162 ESSM, RIM-174A Standard ERAM and RUM-139 VL-ASROC for the Mk41 VLS, not to mention torpedoes and rocket propelled depth charges like the RGB-60 for the RBU-6000 on plenty of Russian vessels (nearly all of them) and the 111SG and 111ZO rockets for the UDAV-1 on the Kuznetsov and Kirov
  
• Correct the ammunition & implement more round types for larger calibre naval artillery (only seems to have 1 type of ammunition also the Phalanx CIWS is using the wrong round).
  
• Loadout editor for multipurpose VLS (such as the Mk41 VLS on the Ticonderoga and Arleigh Burke)
  
• Correct ship RADARs (such as the AN/SPG-62 on the Arleigh-Burke-class DDG and Ticonderoga-class CG, which while animated on the former, are non-functional).
  
• Add the secondary AShM mode for RIM-66 and RIM-156 using SARH guidance (similar to P-STT in the Tomcat which can illuminate ships, allowing you to guide Sparrows at them).
  
• Correct ship naming and designations (e.g "USS Arleigh Burke IIa" -> Arleigh Burke-class Flt.IIA (early) DDG)
  
• Corrected weapon designations (e.g AGM-84S (doesn't exist) -> RGM-84D & BGM-109B (wrong variant) -> BGM-109C)
  

 

Later on there should be a vastly improved damage model - i.e ships sink realistically based on severity and location of damage. Individual external subsystems should be able to be destroyed. As well as improved fires and secondary effects from fires.

 

ED could also create a graphical damage model that actually reflects the exact location of major impacts in a similar fashion to SH4, whereby ships have a very basic interior, and impact textures reflect the actual location of where weapons hit.

 

All you'd need to do is create a basic, 3D interior (which can literally just be charred out low poly stuff, you'd only need to do bulkheads, floors, ceilings etc - not too dissimilar to what we have now). And then have a transparent texture (with maybe some charring around) be painted on the ship, where the weapon impacted - in the exact same fashion as craters painted on the ground, where weapons impact.

 

I agree with you.

 

I think ship's systems are incomplete.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=269312

[Northstar98]

I agree with everything above.

 

I'd like to add

• more AI ship models (civilian --> tankers PG map; military)
  
• a dedicated (US/western) naval helicopter as a full module (but without any ASW simulation initially, that would be too much to ask right now)
  

to the list.

 

I don't understand why ED has strengthened the naval aspect of DCS with the SC, the Hornet and possibly the PG map only to leave it like that and be totally non-communicative about their plans in that area.

 

Yep, absolutely.

 

I think what ED needs to do is make a new 'country' named civilians, and then turn the static civilian vessels into full AI units, there's plenty on the SoH map and the Channel map.

 

One thing I'd also add is an actual underwater, now that submarines are more a thing, and especially for the upcoming marianas map.

 

It doesn't need to be super amazing, to the level of KSP + Scatterer mod/Cold Waters would be absolutely fine and to the level of SH4 would almost be going too far.

 

The sea floor doesn't have to be high detail at all, it can have the same mesh resolution of the old LOMAC era Caucasus map, just so long as reasonably accurate (again, doesn't need to be high resolution at all). You could do autogen clutter like rocks and plants if they really wanted to.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Northstar98

[draconus]

Depth is already implemented partially in current maps and more in depth in new ones (pun intended).

[Northstar98]

Depth is already implemented partially in current maps and more in depth in new ones (pun intended).

 

We've got a sea-floor (not sure how accurate it is though), but there's no 'underwater' so to speak.

 

It is just eye-candy, and the other stuff that has been mentioned is probably more pressing at the moment.

[Silver_Dragon]

We've got a sea-floor (not sure how accurate it is though), but there's no 'underwater' so to speak.

 

It is just eye-candy, and the other stuff that has been mentioned is probably more pressing at the moment.

 

Using real depht data has eye-candy? feature implemented on TDK (4:23).

B2zLO4yZoCg

Edited June 20, 2020 by Silver_Dragon

[Northstar98]

Using real depht data has eye-candy? feature implemented on TDK (4:23).

B2zLO4yZoCg

 

No, not the sea floor, that serves more of a useful purpose. I meant the actual 'under the surface of the water' I don't know how to explain it...

 

 

Something like this, if you ignore the submarine.

 

 

This doesn't do much else apart from let us move the camera under water so therefore it's more of an eye-candy thing rather than something functional, unlike the sea floor which is important not only for submarines, but also the 2 bottom mines we're getting with the Hornet.

[Silver_Dragon]

DCS submarines actually "submerg" into the water and torpedoes working under them. If you talk about a realistic "underwater" envirotment that can require more time to implement, and yes, coming mines, not only underwater. The water texture, color underwater explosions, propellers and others effects enter into the sea implementation, but surely now has not a priority, as build a sound / sonar environment.

[Northstar98]

DCS submarines actually "submerg" into the water and torpedoes working under them.

 

Yes, I am aware of that, at least in 2.5.6.

 

If you talk about a realistic "underwater" envirotment that can require more time to implement, and yes, coming mines, not only underwater. The water texture, color underwater explosions, propellers and others effects enter into the sea implementation, but surely now has not a priority, as build a sound / sonar environment.

 

Yes, that's what I'm talking about, I realise it's more time consuming, and more difficult, for what is essentially - underwater eye candy.

 

As for effects? I don't mind waiting, ED still has got the task of implementing a more realistic wake, (the new one is much improved, but it just looks like an improved one of the old one - it is much too short (especially at higher speeds), and there's not enough white, plus there's no rooster tails). There's other things like improved fires and smoke for ships and vehicles.

 

As for the sonar modelling? Eh, I don't know, while it's certainly something I'd like in the future, personally I'd be happy if we got overhauled sounds for vessels, instead of the same generic noise (which even applies for submerged submarines). Without being able to actually go underwater it's kind of pointless. I'm happy for simplified sensors for the time being, especially when we can't move the camera below the surface and we've only got AI stuff.

 

One thing I forgot to mention with regard to submarines is mast usage control and implementation of the Pr. 636.3 Improved Kilo present in the modelviewer.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Northstar98

[Silver_Dragon]

One thing I forgot to mention with regard to submarines is mast usage control and implementation of the Pr. 636.3 Improved Kilo present in the modelviewer.

 

Surely on the To Do by ED.... on the russian forums has a angry discussion about when implement the kilos and put the Krub-S and other weapons on the two Kilos on DCS. I see the Burke has torpedo tube animated and RAZBAN was making ASW torpedoes. The problem yet, has not a "Scheme" to use that weapons, the same situation has the ahead throw and stand off weapons (present from LOMAC).

Edited June 20, 2020 by Silver_Dragon

[Northstar98]

Yeah, that's a question, do torpedoes have any guidance at all? I can't seem to get the Type 093-III SSN to fire and the WWII torpedoes are all gyro-angle straight-runners

[Silver_Dragon]

Yeah, that's a question, do torpedoes have any guidance at all? I can't seem to get the Type 093-III SSN to fire and the WWII torpedoes are all gyro-angle straight-runners

 

I check the weapons lua files on the 2.5.6, and I see 3 "schemes":

- Unguied torpedo

- Unguided Stab torpedo

- Guided torpedo

 

The problem, the Deka Yu-6 has none sensors, but has "declare" as Unguided and Guided torpedo. On the schemes, "show" something similar to a search cone and control wires, but missing "funtionality" about where has implemented them.