How do I AAR?

[lmp]

12 hours ago, Kaktus said:

So FIRST and FOREMOST ISSUE IS  ---- TRIMMING-- 

As others said, there's no need to trim during AAR. The fact that you are even focusing on that suggests to me that your approach to the problem is wrong.

You shouldn't be trying to find the perfect stick and throttle position that'll keep the aircraft stable behind the tanker. The aircraft will always be drifting or about to start drifting. You should be focusing on spotting any hint of it and correcting it immediately. Prioritise stopping drift early over not overcorrecting. Overcorrecting (within reason) will not make you oscillate, but being slow will. You will always be behind the aircraft if you keep looking for the ideal throttle, pitch and roll. There is none. Identify drift. Stop it. Don't overthink.

It took me a while (I'd say way too long) to truly understand this, even after hearing it so many times. But once you get it, it all becomes so much easier.

Going back to trimming, I don't trim not just the Hornet or Viper for AAR, but even non FBW jets. I will get it trimmed pre contact and throughout the flight of course, but at the tanker I'm flying at a near constant speed so there's no reason to trim. It's that much of a non-issue.

EDIT: I just now realised you're talking about the F-14 rather than the Hornet. We're in the Hornet forum section and it seems everyone assumed that's what you fly. The point about not trimming is still valid though, regardless of what you fly. Trim it before you connect and don't touch it. You can additionally consider putting the wings in bomb mode so they don't move when you're in the middle of it. Or so I'm told, I don't fly that aircraft much.

Edited February 28, 2024 by lmp

[Atazar SPN]

When I started at DCS six years ago my priority was to fly as close as possible to other aircraft, almost touching the wing. Since I did not have flight companions, I always practiced with the (AI) that usually makes much more abrupt movements with the disadvantage of not having communication and coordination. Despite having always had a low-end Hotas without sufficient quality and precision, I think I have only crashed in the air once or twice flying in formation. One of them because of me.

When I was able to fly close to another aircraft and maintain position, in-flight refueling came on its own.

From my point of view, the first step is to practice formation flying with other aircraft. As you begin to feel comfortable with formation flying, gain confidence, and anticipate movements, turns, increases and decreases in speed, you will be able to get closer and closer. When you feel completely safe around an airplane and can fly nearby, mid-air refueling will probably be a much easier task for you.

 

Edited February 28, 2024 by Atazar SPN

[SharpeXB]

Part of the problem I realize is DCS doesn’t have enough scenarios where you fly formation as #2. Everyone mission or campaign seems to place you in the lead. So it’s no wonder people have trouble with AAR. 
Something like the WWII DLC campaigns where you fly formation across the channel and back every fight would get you in the groove for this. 
Recently I got the AH-64, never having flown helicopters before I was in for a steep learning curve! But then when I tried AAR again it was so easy I thought something in the game was set wrong so maybe try out a helicopter? Or other aircraft that are actually a challenge to fly. The modern FBW jets are otherwise too easy and you forget to actually control them all the time. Fly something that requires constant attention and it helps. 

Edited February 28, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Kaktus]

thanks for all the support, guidelines etc. 

 

 yeah i know its probably my fault, well it is my fault, my gear is not top notch (still dreaming of buying VKB stick and throttle, but for now i'm with the "middle" gear as in x56 rhino, the throttle is a bit stiff, i know there are some vids showing how to loosen it as it supposedly has issues with low quality grease or something, like its really hard to move it which could be an issue as well as throttle movement must be as precise as the stick otherwise you will be overshooting or slowing down too much, just as annoying as PIO.

 

but yeah, i like the idea of flying formation, just going there and trying to hold it for 3 minutes or longer.

 

on a side note, question-how long can you do formation flying, like if its intense (especially if its like 10-20 feet apart from Lead) how long can you do it before you get exhausted to such a degree its impacting your ability to fight, find targets afterwards (cuz you are wasted from concetration in formaiton flying)? how do the real pilots do it? probably doing loose formation flying most of the time or no? i can't imagine this for 3 hours every day.. 

 

anyhow, i will go and train, i can't promise tanker or lead AI planes will not be shot down in process in sad fratricide situation but i think releasing emotions is needed, especially since i think i have a long road ahead of me.

[SharpeXB]

25 minutes ago, Kaktus said:

on a side note, question-how long can you do formation flying

All day long

I shouldn’t plug another game but there’s a WWI and WWII flight sim with a career mode and all you do on every mission when you’re the lower ranked pilot is fly off your lead for hours and hours. I have to think that really has a benefit. The more you do this the less stressful it is. Oh when I started learning AAR I was covered in sweat with a death grip on the stick. But you learn to relax. 
The other day I was flying online and the stupid tanker flew into the threat circle of an SA-10. Plus there were enemy fighters prowling around me as I was refueling. But I’m so calm now I was just checking my EWR and such the whole time just unfazed

[BuzzU]

Self control is important in combat sims. Shooting the tanker is stupid and shows you have none.

[SharpeXB]

12 minutes ago, BuzzU said:

Self control is important in combat sims. Shooting the tanker is stupid and shows you have none.

But it sure helps! Cmon I know everyone has done that once

PS for other game related challenges that might help your focus. Racing sims! 🫨

A racing sim is like a big AAR session that lasts 30-40 minutes and never lets up. After that AAR is easy by comparison. 

[BuzzU]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

But it sure helps! Cmon I know everyone has done that once

PS for other game related challenges that might help your focus. Racing sims! 🫨

A racing sim is like a big AAR session that lasts 30-40 minutes and never lets up. After that AAR is easy by comparison. 

I agree. I've been doing racing sims for over 20 year. GPL since 1999. ACC, iRacing etc ect. Fun stuff.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

But it sure helps! Cmon I know everyone has done that once

PS for other game related challenges that might help your focus. Racing sims! 🫨

A racing sim is like a big AAR session that lasts 30-40 minutes and never lets up. After that AAR is easy by comparison. 

I agree. I've been doing racing sims for over 20 year. GPL since 1999. ACC, iRacing etc ect. Fun stuff.

I was kind of harsh. Sorry.

[lmp]

14 hours ago, Kaktus said:

thanks for all the support, guidelines etc

A few more random tips from me:

1) In case of the probe and drogue system, after you connect, fly a little bit forward and a little higher and try to keep the aircraft there. Don't stay exactly where you connected, the hose will not have any slack and you'll have less room for error.

2) Keep practice sessions frequent but short. It's better to put in 10-15min every day (or however often you can) than 1h every once in a while. Practice for a few minutes and do something fun next.

3) When I was learning, a big milestone for me was being able to connect reliably every time, even if I lost connection quickly. I don't know if you're there yet? If connecting costs you a lot of time and stress, of course you're going to disconnect immediately afterwards, because you're all tense and worried you'll waste this opportunity. So a session where you don't manage to pick up any fuel but you successfully connect a few times is still useful training.

Edited February 29, 2024 by lmp

[Kaktus]

roger dodger boys, practiced a bit, i agree with Imp, better to do frequent efforts that are short than long duration ones that are rare.. but being a 40+ year old dad i really struggle with time for this "hobby" of mine, so i do what i can, i starter from new year , 1st of january, and flew all together 5 times with 20 min each, today i flew for 50 minutes, i am surprised at my emotional control, not even once did i PIO to an extent to loose sight of the basket (let alone shoot down my poor assisting AI fuel station), and i flew in formation the whole time, i connected once and it was very good connection as it was controlled (than the usual ramming the probe with connection established for a milisecond).

 

 

The best and worst part in today session was being in the zone, i could actually feel how totally centered i am and i was moving my stick all over the place but the plane was focused  and i was coming closer and closer, and then like a dream, when you dream and in a dream you realize YOU'RE DREAMING, you become lucid, so excited, like wow, i'm actually doing this.. omg, OMG, and of course i blew it-i connected, Jester told me sweet juice something and my brain starting to celebrate and go ape<profanity> and of course i lost contact

I guess you just have to be in that relaxed, pot induced state, like just don't care, and do your business and go home.

 

But i must say i'm glad with my results, far from end result of being able to drink that sweet necessary juice but getting closer.

 

Must say your input helped alot, especially from some members who corrected my belief (that i got watching youtuubers tutorials)that you don't need to have the stick totally trimmed out or even try to totally trim it out as you approach end stage of AAR, the be close enough in the ballpark with trim is enough, then its just stick and throttle work.

 

But i was tense, i tried to relax a bit as well, but at moments i felt my abs, my feet, my shoulders work out like i was in a gym, thank goodness my x56 hotas is not made of dough i would have flattened it in my hands.

 

Very much looking forwards to next sessions. 

 

And that is why i love DCS, for being hard, for the choice to pick that which is hard and beat myself, and become better for it. I remember as a kid flying the very first Flying Legends Su27, with my buddy i actually learned the Russian alphabet, and some meaning of some words, we would try to fly through Crimea and dodge S300 missiles, read the encylopedia in-game which had all planes and missiles listed (sadly i miss this part in our DCS) and even had some videos of Su27 i think performing Cobra and interview with that famous pilot-forgot his name though.

[SharpeXB]

My AAR awakening came one day after the usual frustration, driving to work. And realizing I was able to keep “formation” in traffic. I thought; how am I able to do this but not in the game? Well… look at the small subconscious motions you make on the wheel and gas pedal without even realizing it. I’m not mashing down the gas and wildly cranking the wheel. Just driving. Same with riding a bicycle. You don’t even think about it. Ok so do the same in the game, it just takes some time to get your reflexes tuned. And it’s odd because the only feedback you get is your vision. But eventually it clicks and an amazing thing. 

[Kaktus]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

My AAR awakening came one day after the usual frustration, driving to work. And realizing I was able to keep “formation” in traffic. I thought; how am I able to do this but not in the game? Well… look at the small subconscious motions you make on the wheel and gas pedal without even realizing it. I’m not mashing down the gas and wildly cranking the wheel. Just driving. Same with riding a bicycle. You don’t even think about it. Ok so do the same in the game, it just takes some time to get your reflexes tuned. And it’s odd because the only feedback you get is your vision. But eventually it clicks and an amazing thing. 

yup, something like that yes, .. a wonderful feeling, when the subconscious can do the work, you just have to be alert enough to let it work and clutter free to a degree obviously.

 

 

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

My AAR awakening came one day after the usual frustration, driving to work. And realizing I was able to keep “formation” in traffic. I thought; how am I able to do this but not in the game? Well… look at the small subconscious motions you make on the wheel and gas pedal without even realizing it. I’m not mashing down the gas and wildly cranking the wheel. Just driving. Same with riding a bicycle. You don’t even think about it. Ok so do the same in the game, it just takes some time to get your reflexes tuned. And it’s odd because the only feedback you get is your vision. But eventually it clicks and an amazing thing. 

It's also a good analogy for your hardware not being the culprit.  After all, people are able to drive in traffic in junkers with no power and limp-wristed steering wheels that have a mile of play.  But it would certainly be more enjoyable in a nicer car

 

[Kaktus]

hahaha, boys, tnx you alot, i did it!! ))) i mean i didn't refuel the whole thing but, big but, i did manage to connect in very short time and in controlled manner, and refueled for my record 30+ seconds, still overwhelming experience being THAT close to the tanker so i had some issues but over all amazing feeling, i am beggining to see benefits of being able to fly formation,refuel in actually moving the plane through waypoints and approaching airfields, CV during landing, its all much more smoother and more logical, its a beautiful experience wow.

 

You guys deserve a shout out for real, you really did make an impact, my crappy X56 isn't actually responsible for my previous blunders (though still crappy and will be buying VKB whole set -including pedals as im also fan of the shark and hind, down the line Apache as well). 

 

Its funny, how DCS can be fun for all the different reasons to many ppl, some enjoy blowing stuff on the ground, others raking air kills in MP, to me doing the "basics" the right way and since i'm not a pilot its a full commitment and hard thing to get right on the get go.

 

Now i can do the rest of it, navigation, frequencies, using TACAN, my god such a noob i know, and only then tactics, air to air, air to ground, and during all this not to forget to do 5 refueling missions per week for 10 min max to refresh and imprint as much of the movement into my muscle memory when its still "fresh".

 

 

[lmp]

Great job! It shouldn't be long till you can fill her up all the way. Then you'll only need to learn to do it with a full combat load, at different speeds and altitudes, at night, with the tanker turning, with different tankers...

But it looks like you got over the biggest hurdle. It's only this frustrating in the beginning. Once you learn it once, even if you let your skill slip a little over time, it's never that hard to get back into it.

[jaylw314]

On 3/2/2024 at 2:09 PM, Kaktus said:

hahaha, boys, tnx you alot, i did it!! ))) i mean i didn't refuel the whole thing but, big but, i did manage to connect in very short time and in controlled manner, and refueled for my record 30+ seconds, still overwhelming experience being THAT close to the tanker so i had some issues but over all amazing feeling, i am beggining to see benefits of being able to fly formation,refuel in actually moving the plane through waypoints and approaching airfields, CV during landing, its all much more smoother and more logical, its a beautiful experience wow.

 

You guys deserve a shout out for real, you really did make an impact, my crappy X56 isn't actually responsible for my previous blunders (though still crappy and will be buying VKB whole set -including pedals as im also fan of the shark and hind, down the line Apache as well). 

 

Its funny, how DCS can be fun for all the different reasons to many ppl, some enjoy blowing stuff on the ground, others raking air kills in MP, to me doing the "basics" the right way and since i'm not a pilot its a full commitment and hard thing to get right on the get go.

 

Now i can do the rest of it, navigation, frequencies, using TACAN, my god such a noob i know, and only then tactics, air to air, air to ground, and during all this not to forget to do 5 refueling missions per week for 10 min max to refresh and imprint as much of the movement into my muscle memory when its still "fresh".

 

 

Not only is that a great step, but that's a great attitude you have, and it inspired me to put some effort into trying to learn something new today.  Congrats!

[maxTRX]

Here's my re-learning progress.  Slowly getting there but it's not pretty yet   For those who like to gas up from S3's, I'm sure you already figured out you need to stay positioned a little higher then before 2.9.3 (actually since a few patches ago).  I could wobble all over the place and stay connected as long as I didn't drag the basket down too far.

My PIO's were spectacular behind an S3 (at light weight at 1500 ft.)

 

[markom]

I love AAR - it's a learning that's incredibly rewarding. Here's a bit long video of one of mine (if you are bored with just flying, AAR is at 10m10s:

 

[freehand]

On 2/29/2024 at 11:10 PM, Schlingel mit Kringel said:

Great to hear you see progress

Indeed it is better to do frequent 10 minute sessions (if your life permits) than forcing yourself through this for an hour straight once a week - at the beginning you lose concentration quick as it is very demanding, so everything above 10 minutes or so will just give you fatigue and rather hurt your practice than help it. When you feel frustration and the urge to ram or shoot down the tanker, you went too long already. So when you feel that itch: just put the throttle back a bit, pitch down slightly, move over to observation position, let the tanker crew know you bug off and go do some fun stuff instead.
Apart from that fatigue thing, muscle memory also needs frequent practice to build. Trying to get a thread through a needle's eye a hundred times once will not give the same (long term) results as trying this once a day only but for a hundred days straight.

For those Youtube videos you mention (unpopular opinion incoming): it is really a good idea to ignore the most of them - defnitely those YT likes to rub in your face when you search for something. Certain people made a sidehustle out of pushing out a gazillion of tutorial videos and the "quality" of "information" they present is... well, you already found out If you want video content, rather search for virtual squadrons that take things seriously. They will give you quality information, thanks for the algorithm they are just not that easy to find and also harder to digest due to their depth.

This below is for the F-18 and about the overhead break, but i post it to give an example how quality content imho looks like. I had very little contact with the F-14 so i do not know about any virtual F-14 squadrons content.
Scaley here did an excellet job of building things up and in 32 minutes gives you everything in depth you need to know. It is not pretty pictures but lots of packed info, takes some effort to get into but will give best benefit because it does not teach you wrong stuff. Definitely worth digging for such gold mines. With the attitude you mention in your last paragraph, this might be a path to try.

 

There was real world pilots showing how to do the break when the f18 was first released. 

 

[maxTRX]

'Growler Jams' posted one of the best refueling vids we can find on YT.  Plugging into KC135mprs (if I remember correctly) in turbulent air.  He also explains the entire process.

[SickSidewinder9]

Is it just me, or is the precontact position off?  Especially the KC-135 with pods.  It seems to want me in the boom refueling precontact position before letting out the hose all the way on the left wingtip.  Shouldn't I be behind or off the left wingtip for precontact?

 

And tip that works for me: don't look at the basket until the last nano second.  Look at the pod.  Line up straight behind and below that.  In some situations, like a left hand turn, you won't even have to really compensate for the probe being to your right because the hose will be askew in that direction.

It's not your equipment.  I did it with an Extreme 3D Pro and I now do it with an X56.  Getting curves right helps.  Try a dead zone around 2 or 3 and curves around 12, I think?  I'm not looking at it now, but it sounds right.  Just keep practicing and you'll get that hot probe-in-basket action in no time.

[whiteladder]

On 3/10/2024 at 8:56 PM, oldcrusty said:

'Growler Jams' posted one of the best refueling vids we can find on YT.  Plugging into KC135mprs (if I remember correctly) in turbulent air.  He also explains the entire process.

Yeah this is a great video, he has some super advice, about using just pitch and rudder for the final few feet of line up and wriggling your fingers and toes before pre-contact!  Well worth a watch

[JSArcher]

On 2/28/2024 at 9:24 AM, Phantom711 said:

Try using CSS mode (Control Stick Steering). Press the AP button and then the ON button. Nothing else (no BALT or anything). It makes all movements a bit more dampened and smooth.

As with all AP modes you disengage it with the NWS button. paddle switch.

 

 

100%
Was always good at AAR prior to update. (60+)
Was about to write it off as too hard, even with tuning the dead zones and curve, but this was spot on.

 

Thanks mate.

[Sandman1330]

Is there a known / acknowledged issue with AAR in the new FM? Before the update, I could slide in, plug and fuel first try, every time. Now it almost feels like there's a lag in the pitch controls - it's really easy to get into pitch PIO. I can still do it, but it's much much harder, and not as clean and pretty as I used to.

Is it a known / documented change? Is it a bug, or intended?

[Dangerzone]

On 3/18/2024 at 7:29 AM, Sandman1330 said:

Is there a known / acknowledged issue with AAR in the new FM? Before the update, I could slide in, plug and fuel first try, every time. Now it almost feels like there's a lag in the pitch controls - it's really easy to get into pitch PIO. I can still do it, but it's much much harder, and not as clean and pretty as I used to.

Is it a known / documented change? Is it a bug, or intended?

What stick are you using? I'm not noticing any lag in the controls myself. The pitch is definitely more sensitive, but I'm able to AAR with little issue and without using AP . (The trick for me is fine movement of the stick - I literally only hold it with my thumb and index finger to make small movements), although I am running good hardware (VKB Gunfighter MCG). 

I personally am enjoying the increased challenge with AAR. It brings back that feeling of satisfaction all over again when able to nail it, although I realize that for many, the original AAR was difficult enough - and this new mode only makes it difficult. But there is good news in the way of a virtual assist as mentioned in the post above yours: 

If you're finding the movements too sensitive - try turning on autopilot. (But do not engage HDG or BALT modes! Only use ATTH at the very most). This will dampen the movement of the stick and you may find it helps, however I have not needed to do this, provided I use very fine adjustments and counter each movement after making the movement. 

You may have perceived lag, in that you make a movement, wait for it to react, and then countermove. In this case, you will always be behind the aircraft, and this will lead to PIO (among other issues). The idea is any correctional movement normally needs an anticipated counter-movement shortly after - and normally well before you even see the full reaction to the initial movement. This applies to throttle as well as stick and rudder. Do not mistake this as computer or application lag - I believe this is simulating real lag that we experience when flying. 

Hope this helps.