How do I AAR?

[Sandman1330]

Is there a known / acknowledged issue with AAR in the new FM? Before the update, I could slide in, plug and fuel first try, every time. Now it almost feels like there's a lag in the pitch controls - it's really easy to get into pitch PIO. I can still do it, but it's much much harder, and not as clean and pretty as I used to.

Is it a known / documented change? Is it a bug, or intended?

[Dangerzone]

On 3/18/2024 at 7:29 AM, Sandman1330 said:

Is there a known / acknowledged issue with AAR in the new FM? Before the update, I could slide in, plug and fuel first try, every time. Now it almost feels like there's a lag in the pitch controls - it's really easy to get into pitch PIO. I can still do it, but it's much much harder, and not as clean and pretty as I used to.

Is it a known / documented change? Is it a bug, or intended?

What stick are you using? I'm not noticing any lag in the controls myself. The pitch is definitely more sensitive, but I'm able to AAR with little issue and without using AP . (The trick for me is fine movement of the stick - I literally only hold it with my thumb and index finger to make small movements), although I am running good hardware (VKB Gunfighter MCG). 

I personally am enjoying the increased challenge with AAR. It brings back that feeling of satisfaction all over again when able to nail it, although I realize that for many, the original AAR was difficult enough - and this new mode only makes it difficult. But there is good news in the way of a virtual assist as mentioned in the post above yours: 

If you're finding the movements too sensitive - try turning on autopilot. (But do not engage HDG or BALT modes! Only use ATTH at the very most). This will dampen the movement of the stick and you may find it helps, however I have not needed to do this, provided I use very fine adjustments and counter each movement after making the movement. 

You may have perceived lag, in that you make a movement, wait for it to react, and then countermove. In this case, you will always be behind the aircraft, and this will lead to PIO (among other issues). The idea is any correctional movement normally needs an anticipated counter-movement shortly after - and normally well before you even see the full reaction to the initial movement. This applies to throttle as well as stick and rudder. Do not mistake this as computer or application lag - I believe this is simulating real lag that we experience when flying. 

Hope this helps.

[Sandman1330]

16 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

What stick are you using? I'm not noticing any lag in the controls myself. The pitch is definitely more sensitive, but I'm able to AAR with little issue and without using AP . (The trick for me is fine movement of the stick - I literally only hold it with my thumb and index finger to make small movements), although I am running good hardware (VKB Gunfighter MCG). 

I personally am enjoying the increased challenge with AAR. It brings back that feeling of satisfaction all over again when able to nail it, although I realize that for many, the original AAR was difficult enough - and this new mode only makes it difficult. But there is good news in the way of a virtual assist as mentioned in the post above yours: 

If you're finding the movements too sensitive - try turning on autopilot. (But do not engage HDG or BALT modes! Only use ATTH at the very most). This will dampen the movement of the stick and you may find it helps, however I have not needed to do this, provided I use very fine adjustments and counter each movement after making the movement. 

You may have perceived lag, in that you make a movement, wait for it to react, and then countermove. In this case, you will always be behind the aircraft, and this will lead to PIO (among other issues). The idea is any correctional movement normally needs an anticipated counter-movement shortly after - and normally well before you even see the full reaction to the initial movement. This applies to throttle as well as stick and rudder. Do not mistake this as computer or application lag - I believe this is simulating real lag that we experience when flying. 

Hope this helps.

Thanks. To be clear I'm not looking for any assists or tricks - I can AAR, I have always been able to AAR, and have no interest in using autopilots or tricks to do so

My stick is a Virpil Warbrd, so good quality.

I'm just wondering if anyone knows if the flight model is going to stay this way or not (ie was it intended behaviour). It seems you've noticed the change as well, though from my perspective it feels like lag (a delayed response to control inputs), where you don't perceive it that way. It just feels "spongy" now. I don't recall having any delay to fine control inputs during the real formation flying I've done, though it's been awhile to be fair and it wasn't in a hornet

At least I'm not alone in knowing something has changed!

[Dangerzone]

8 hours ago, Sandman1330 said:

Thanks. To be clear I'm not looking for any assists or tricks - I can AAR, I have always been able to AAR, and have no interest in using autopilots or tricks to do so

My stick is a Virpil Warbrd, so good quality.

I'm just wondering if anyone knows if the flight model is going to stay this way or not (ie was it intended behaviour). It seems you've noticed the change as well, though from my perspective it feels like lag (a delayed response to control inputs), where you don't perceive it that way. It just feels "spongy" now. I don't recall having any delay to fine control inputs during the real formation flying I've done, though it's been awhile to be fair and it wasn't in a hornet

At least I'm not alone in knowing something has changed!

You're definitely not alone. I believe the FM has changed significantly. You can get some decent AoA now in the hornet too - a lot of fun (but warning - you can lose a lot of energy very quickly too now doing so ).  I also suspect that drag has been reduced in some configurations as well. (The after burner definitely seems to have more effect than before). 

The change is deliberate. I don't believe we'll be going back to the way it was - but in the same time - there's nothing saying that it won't be continually tweaked to be more realistic again sometime in the future if the SME's/Dev's believe it's not quite there yet. 

As for the perceived delay - I'm a massive survey of one person - so others may have a different experience, or I may not be as observant. 

[rob10]

11 hours ago, Sandman1330 said:

Thanks. To be clear I'm not looking for any assists or tricks - I can AAR, I have always been able to AAR, and have no interest in using autopilots or tricks to do so

My stick is a Virpil Warbrd, so good quality.

I'm just wondering if anyone knows if the flight model is going to stay this way or not (ie was it intended behaviour). It seems you've noticed the change as well, though from my perspective it feels like lag (a delayed response to control inputs), where you don't perceive it that way. It just feels "spongy" now. I don't recall having any delay to fine control inputs during the real formation flying I've done, though it's been awhile to be fair and it wasn't in a hornet

At least I'm not alone in knowing something has changed!

Do you have any curves or deadzone set (I don't)?  It's definitely different, but IMHO it's MORE responsive rather than laggy so easier to get into PIO.  It also doesn't have the bit of "rebound" (for lack of a better word) that it used to have when you let go.

[Sandman1330]

On 3/19/2024 at 8:53 PM, rob10 said:

Do you have any curves or deadzone set (I don't)?  It's definitely different, but IMHO it's MORE responsive rather than laggy so easier to get into PIO.  It also doesn't have the bit of "rebound" (for lack of a better word) that it used to have when you let go.

I've played with the curves to see if I can make it better, still happier with the 15 curve I have set.

I personally love it to be finger responsive. I have a good stick, and I mostly do helicopters, so finger touch is where it's at for me. I dislike the Viper's AAR law, where everything becomes less sensitive, for that reason. I want it so sensitive I just have to "think" about moving the stick and the aircraft responds. Now the Hornet feels to me like I move the stick, and there's a pause before it responds, so I end up moving it a bit too much and start a PIO. Could be realistic due to inertia, don't really know...

[FreightDog]

I've invested many hours/days trying to re-learn AAR in this module after the update and I'm going to give up soon.  Maybe it was mickey mouse before but it was still a challenge to master and after a while I could do it with my eyes closed.  Just can't get it now, tried every curve setting (TM Warthog) but always get PIO and overcorrecting even using only thumb and forefinger at top of stick.  No improvement whatsoever.

 

I'm in awe of you guys who can just nail it now after 10 minutes of retraining on the new model.  Shame as aar was one of my favourite DCS pastimes.

[t1mb0b]

you said it right there, the reason, PIO, only you can fix when it comes down to it.

Keep practicing, make sure you have a dead zone of at least '4'.

[SharpeXB]

Yeah I had this down so well I could sleep through it. And then the new FM was a bit of a WTF wake up. But a little retuning is all it takes. Possibly increasing the curve a tiny bit might help depending on the controller and mine are old and spikey, I don’t think dead zones help though.

[Thump]

10 hours ago, FreightDog said:

I've invested many hours/days trying to re-learn AAR in this module after the update and I'm going to give up soon.  Maybe it was mickey mouse before but it was still a challenge to master and after a while I could do it with my eyes closed.  Just can't get it now, tried every curve setting (TM Warthog) but always get PIO and overcorrecting even using only thumb and forefinger at top of stick.  No improvement whatsoever.

 

I'm in awe of you guys who can just nail it now after 10 minutes of retraining on the new model.  Shame as aar was one of my favourite DCS pastimes.

Hopefully this might help with the PIO stuff. 

 

My TM Warthog Curves/Settings (factory base, no mods):

Pitch: 3, 100, 100, 15, no boxes checked

Roll:  3, 100, 100, 15, no boxes checked

Yaw: 0, 100, 100, 0, no boxes checked

Throttle(s): 0, 100, 100, 0, no boxes checked

 

My (unsolicited?) A/R Techniques to prevent PIO:

Closure/Distance:

1) Know your tanker's speed in IAS (i.e. the speed you see in the HUD).  Do this by locking the target and do some quick public math.  I believe they give a TAS speed and not IAS, so if you go off of what they say, you will have closure issues.  This will get you "in the ballpark" to be refined in pre-contact. (I.E., they say "at 300 (knots)", I lock them up anticipating it being +/- 10-20 knots depending in refueling altitude).  I use that as a baseline to get into pre-contact.

2) Once you know your tanker's airspeed, get behind them and match them in pre-contact, quick glance at your current IAS with them at ZERO visible closure.  For argument's sake, they are going exactly 300 knots indicated with you having zero visible closure in pre-contact.  That is now your baseline number and deviate from that number no greater than 2-3 knots.  With that ZERO visible closure & known tanker IAS speed, make a mental note where your TM throttle physically is.  Any movement in throttle from that "starting" position will require corrections to get back to that zero visible closure state (example: if I add a hair of power to get 2-3 knots closure, I need to take out a hair and a half to decelerate back to tanker speed, once at tanker speed, I will need to add a half hair back in to get back to my "starting" throttle position to maintain tanker speed). If you're moving it greater than a few hairs to generate the 2-3 knots closure, you're moving too much.  This technique will give you stable fore/aft movement. 

 

In Steps:

1) Call Tanker, get stated speed
2) Lock tanker, get general speed to get into pre-contact

3) Once in pre-contact, establish zero closure actual IAS with reference to HUD.

4) Establish "starting" throttle position mentally with Zero Visible Closure IAS

 

Note : If tanker starts moving (i.e. the start of a PIO), Look at HUD, put FPM on horizon.  Gentle & decisive but timely corrections will help.

 

Vertical (when ready to go from pre-contact to contact):

Rule 1: DO NOT STARE at the basket, do not make corrections solely off the basket.  Fly off the tanker for general position and make small corrections to align the probe with basket.

Rule 2: Fly a bit below the tanker as wake turbulence will kick you around a bit these days.

1) Use the manual gun cross in the upper right hand corner of the HUD & place the basket in it.  Use the controls smoothly to keep the basket there until you are a few feet behind the basket.

 

2) Swap to a 60/40 focus between basket & tanker respectively when trying to close those last few feet.

 

3) If you feel a PIO coming on, use the FPM in the HUD to reference level flight.  The AI tanker is usually shacked on altitude & so make timely/positive corrections to place the FPM on the horizon.

 

In Steps:

Moving pre-contact to contact:

1) Add power to get 2-3 knots closure, place basket on manual gun cross reticle (upper right part of HUD, circle with cross in it)

2) Drive up to a few feet from basket, transition to 60/40 focus between basket & tanker

3) Make fine corrections to align basket 

4 ) Contact, push in a few feet to "create some slack", & establish zero visible closure (i.e. that throttle "starting position").

 

Horizontal:

 

1) Adjust as necessary to keep the drogue on the right upper corner of the HUD

 

Once Connected:

1) Keep corrections very small.

2) Remember that zero closure speed you established in pre-contact & your corrections are now based on tanker LOS movement in canopy & not airspeed directly.

3) Reference FPM if you feel like a PIO is coming on and get it back stable on the horizon.

4) If you start entering a vertical PIO, smaller continuous corrections to stop the tanker LOS (line of sight, ie movement in the canopy) in any position is better than trying to solve that problem & return to perfect contact all in one go.  I.E. Cut the corrective process into manageable sections.

 

 

Hopefully this helps & wasn't too overbearing.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Thump

Edited April 13 by Thump

[Exorcet]

4 hours ago, FreightDog said:

I've invested many hours/days trying to re-learn AAR in this module after the update and I'm going to give up soon.  Maybe it was mickey mouse before but it was still a challenge to master and after a while I could do it with my eyes closed.  Just can't get it now, tried every curve setting (TM Warthog) but always get PIO and overcorrecting even using only thumb and forefinger at top of stick.  No improvement whatsoever.

 

I'm in awe of you guys who can just nail it now after 10 minutes of retraining on the new model.  Shame as aar was one of my favourite DCS pastimes.

I can't comment on the update as I'm still a couple of versions back, but my experience with PIO is that after a few attempts you should start to get a feel for how to counteract it. When it first comes on you're probably reacting too slow and you just exacerbate things. With time you'll be able to sense PIO coming on faster and react to it more quickly. It also helps to have a reference for where you should be. For this use the FPM to monitor your vertical speed and EGT in the Hornet to monitor throttle setting. If you know roughly where you should be it makes getting back into a stable position easier.

The best solution to PIO is to prevent in from happening in the first place by making a smooth approach and avoiding sudden corrections. Does it seem to come on early or after you've hooked up?

Also don't be discouraged by a lack of visible progress. I find that in a surprising number of cases, a skill seems to click and proficiency jumps by a large amount in a short amount of time. Just don't give up entirely.

[FreightDog]

Thanks all who've replied to help me above. I have had a little progress today. Funnily enough I ended up taking my curves right down, and have had a few successful plug-ins and even got a full bag, though the S3 in a turn still eludes me I'll keep on it. Still very annoying given how little time I have for hobbies to have to "waste" so much effort just to get me back to near where I was before, instead of learning a new system or AC.

No pleasing some people is there lol!

[Thump]

1 hour ago, FreightDog said:

Thanks all who've replied to help me above. I have had a little progress today. Funnily enough I ended up taking my curves right down, and have had a few successful plug-ins and even got a full bag, though the S3 in a turn still eludes me I'll keep on it. Still very annoying given how little time I have for hobbies to have to "waste" so much effort just to get me back to near where I was before, instead of learning a new system or AC.

No pleasing some people is there lol!

 

Glad to hear you're having forward progress!  Some quick images that might help both your horizontal & bank concerns.

 

Horizontal:

 

Slight correction to my last.  Place the pod in the upper right corner of the HUD glass, that will make a straight line down the middle of the drogue pod

 

 

Bank Angle:

The simple answer is to just match the wing bank of the tanker.  The biggest issue is that the tanker never informs the pilot that they are getting ready to enter the turn (which happens IRL) and this causes a YOLO event.  Because the tanker is functioning in 0's & 1's, any bank movement should be considered as an intent to turn.  They will go to approximately 27 degrees of bank (probably 'autopilot' software rules).  This means that once you start seeing the turn happen, start your effort to match them and know they will stop around 30 degrees of bank.  Because of reaction time, you will probably need to initially not match their wings, but go slightly beyond it until the LOS of the tanker in your canopy stops.  If you are in position and the LOS of the tanker has stopped where you want it, then match their wings.

 

I've attached 2 pics to show what I'm talkin' about.

 

Cheers,

 

Thump

Edited April 13 by Thump

[SharpeXB]

Every stick has maybe a bit of play or looseness in its springs etc. Mine is a bit worn but the sensors are still good. That wiggle room is about all I move it when connected. I think having a very light spring is a good thing. If a stick has this as adjustable that’s something to try. Same with the throttle, mine is very light and I can just touch it to move it back and forth. It’s not a matter of somehow finding the right position, you move it tiny bits like your foot on the gas pedal in your car. 

[jaylw314]

On 4/13/2024 at 11:55 AM, Thump said:

Bank Angle:

The simple answer is to just match the wing bank of the tanker.  The biggest issue is that the tanker never informs the pilot that they are getting ready to enter the turn (which happens IRL) and this causes a YOLO event.  Because the tanker is functioning in 0's & 1's, any bank movement should be considered as an intent to turn.  They will go to approximately 27 degrees of bank (probably 'autopilot' software rules).  This means that once you start seeing the turn happen, start your effort to match them and know they will stop around 30 degrees of bank.  Because of reaction time, you will probably need to initially not match their wings, but go slightly beyond it until the LOS of the tanker in your canopy stops.  If you are in position and the LOS of the tanker has stopped where you want it, then match their wings.

 

The only thing I'd add is that because you're slightly below (and therefore outside) the turn of the tanker, your bank angle will be a tiny bit less than the tanker's.  Definitely less of an issue than with boom tanking, where you're significantly below the tanker

[FreightDog]

Thanks again all for the help. Since then I have well and truly cracked it an am back plugging in/out at leisure as I was before... BUT I have now gotten used to holding my stick with thumb & forefinger only, which I never really was comfortable with before, even when I could do it, and it's been a revelation as I can now make tiny inputs seemingly by thought alone. My curves incidentally are set to 3, with deadzone 0. Turns out every update zaps preset curves, so even though i thought I'd set them years ago I'd been flying with a bit fat 0!

[Nipe2989]

What helped me:

First be  able to catch a 3 wire every time. _OK_ or OK at worst (can be rarely 2 or 4 wire). This will help you gain control finesse.

Second, Download a mission called KC130 Daytime refuel. It has a long pipe and flys about 280 indicated, straight on. At first just try and fly just behind and under it.

Once you can do this, try to connect. There's constant throttle adjustments, and you stick movement. You cant stay still. Youre goanna connect and miss a lot. Its frustrating. It takes time.

Gassing up helped me learn to fly formation. I think it's better to learn AAR then formation. But that's just me.

Then once you can do the whole refuel, try the faster jets. In turns. At night, etc.

 

PS -  If you think gassing up the Hornet is hard, try doing something with a boom like the Viper or Eagle. You can barely move an inch!

PPS - make sure you have some curve and some deadzone in you stick. I used 4% and 25% curve.

On 4/20/2024 at 12:28 PM, FreightDog said:

Thanks again all for the help. Since then I have well and truly cracked it an am back plugging in/out at leisure as I was before... BUT I have now gotten used to holding my stick with thumb & forefinger only, which I never really was comfortable with before, even when I could do it, and it's been a revelation as I can now make tiny inputs seemingly by thought alone. My curves incidentally are set to 3, with deadzone 0. Turns out every update zaps preset curves, so even though i thought I'd set them years ago I'd been flying with a bit fat 0!

I fly at 20-25 curve. Wow.

[SharpeXB]

20 minutes ago, Nipe2989 said:

PS -  If you think gassing up the Hornet is hard, try doing something with a boom like the Viper or Eagle. You can barely move an inch!

I think the basket is harder to get connected to since it can’t be moved to you, you have to fly right into it. But it’s easier to stay connected since you have so much slack. 
The probe is easier to get connected because the operator can hook you up, but you have less wiggle room when connected. 
Pick your poison

[Nipe2989]

 

 

 

 

On 4/24/2024 at 4:46 PM, SharpeXB said:

I think the basket is harder to get connected to since it can’t be moved to you, you have to fly right into it. But it’s easier to stay connected since you have so much slack. 
The probe is easier to get connected because the operator can hook you up, but you have less wiggle room when connected. 
Pick your poison

 

Interesting. For me, the Boom is problematic in that most Jets that use it don't have ATC like the Hornet or the Tomcat (to an extent)... That I'm aware of. Sometimes after grabbing the basket, and lining up my canopy right top with the Air Force logo on the KC130, I can tap ATC and match them in the box. The viper is so smooth though, that it flys like a dream. Just like the Hornet. 

The Strike Eagle on the other hand... let's just say it's a struggle. For me, as a Hornet driver.

 

You make a good point tho, pick your poison. I'm starting to seriously learn the Viper, and I can make contact and hold, and only DC about 3-4 times before full. Any tips for the Boom for a vet Hornet driver?

 

Also, do you use NVG's when gassing up at night? The Hornet has such good lighting from the receptical that I find it often easier to AAR at night w/o NVG. Unless there is bad weather or no moon.

 

Check out these cool pics: 

 

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 11:12 PM by Nipe2989
Vid

[Nipe2989]

nullHere are the other clips - They were too big.

 

Im much comfier now in the Hornet. It's almost second nature. It's amazing, I remember 3 years ago saying "there is NO WAY I'll ever be able to refuel in the air, tried it a few times, and banged the desk with my hand.

 

Funny what 3 years can do. Now I look forward to AAR's on missions

[norman99]

The most helpfull tip for me when learning AAR (in the BMS Viper however), was to turn the HUD completly off.

This forces you to look at the tanker and the horizon, instead of the FPV, which is a major cause of pilot induced osillations.

Edited yesterday at 04:18 AM by norman99