Approach turn bank angle - trouble keeping constant

[markturner1960]

Hi, been doing lots of work on my pattern and finding my biggest issue is keeping the bank angle constant. I can input a nice 27 degrees, but find it keeps increasing. Of course, I realise that any throttle inputs will affect this, but always seem to find my self constantly pulling bank off and having to then input throttle which interferes with my trying to keep my rate of descent accurate and then I get too low and to high where I should not be.......

 

Once I have given the stick the required input to achieve the required angle, why does the jet not hold that better? Or is this just a case of doing that pilot sh1t and dealing with the fact that it won’t hold an angle easily once Input in this scenario and I am just going to have to learn to adjust it better?

[jeffham222]

In my experience, when you are turning final, you will be wiggling both throttles and stick to keep it where you want it. But don't expect perfection out of yourself, just fly and get 'er down in one piece. Keep flying the pattern and you'll get better and more confident.

 

I don't mean to come across like I am talking down (because I am not, nor am I pro at this), but anytime you roll more level, your lift will increase, which means you will have to pull back the throttles. Anytime you increase bank angle, lift will decrease so you will have to add some power.

 

Combine with potential winds or asymmetrical loadouts it gets more fun.

[G.J.S]

Unsure if its modelled in DCS, but if it is then what i was told many moons ago, is that essentially its a by-product of swept wings.

When you bank, an aircraft has a natural tendency to "slice" downward (nose drop through), which effectively increases your starting bank - regardless of pull. The wing on the inside of a turn generates slightly less lift than the outer one (due to an imbalance in airspeed felt by each wing), contributing to the "overbank".

Again, I'm unsure of that being modelled in the DCS flight dynamics, but if they are following actual behavior, then this will have a bearing.

[Underdog]

On that final turn I set the turn to 30 degrees and it does slip to the left so I am constantly adjusting my stick to the right to set it back to 30 degree while at the same time using the throttle to control the rate of descent.

[markturner1960]

Ok, thanks, what I thought really then, I just wondered if there was something I was doing wrong.....I must have over 200 traps now, yet still struggling to get this part of the pattern correct....!

Cheers guys.

[BarTzi]

I can input a nice 27 degrees, but find it keeps increasing.

 

If you are not letting go of the stick, what stops you from correcting it back to where you want it to be?

[markturner1960]

Nothing.....but you have to keep adjusting it so much that it makes no sense to remove your hand . I find I am constantly adjusting the throttles and the stick as I go around the turn. I did not say I could not correct it, my point was that the constant inputs meant that it was very difficult to keep your descent rate bang on as well as the bank angle and therefore where and when you rolled out. I imagine its a bit like flying a helicopter and having to balance the stick and collective at the same time....

 

I guess I was also wondering, that if it were possible ( and I am not suggesting that this should be done by the way) to set the back angle with the AP, like you can with flaps at auto, whether a 27 degree bank turn at approx 135 will drop you out exactly where you need to be. I guess yes, or they would not teach you to try and keep that angle and speed....

 

Of course, if you are struggling in the turn, getting more ( or less) vertical velocity and bank angle than you need due to over correcting or not anticipating the throttle inputs etc then this uses up most of your attention and will inevitably result in under or overshooting, arriving above or below the optimum glide slope point etc....

 

Basically then I need to practice more and get better!!

Edited August 17, 2020 by markturner1960

[Meyomyx]

I haven't flown the real Hornet of course, but in DCS it does seem to show a pronounced tendency to drop the nose at the slightest bank angle. Very small amounts of bank necessitate an amount of back pressure to maintain altitude. Maybe this is accurate ....

[G.J.S]

I haven't flown the real Hornet of course, but in DCS it does seem to show a pronounced tendency to drop the nose at the slightest bank angle. Very small amounts of bank necessitate an amount of back pressure to maintain altitude. Maybe this is accurate ....

 

I have no stick time in the Hornet either, my bird was somewhat older!

However, the nose drop IS true, and banks must be coordinated with an elevator pull, plus rudder. The basis of a coordinated turn.

[Mr_Burns]

Watching the pro's teach us on youtube it seems you can just control it all with the throttle.

 

 

I have the TM Warthog Hotas and it just isnt that sensitive to manage anything, no only dropping on the turn but creating lift without pulling on the stick, am am all over the vertical axis on the stick.

 

 

I thought the height during the bank and then the decent were all controlled by the throttle and there was no need to touch the stick (in relation to holding altitude).

[CBStu]

I read in a thread here that the FA-18 definitely has a tendency to increase bank angle on it's own. So I just keep doing small right bank inputs to the stick. I don't hold it, just quick small taps to the right, almost constantly through the entire 180 degrees turn, while I watch bank angle in the HUD. I also watch very closely on the downwind how far I am from the boat as I go past it. I use that to determine how much bank to use. 1-1.2 miles = closer to 30 deg. 1.3-1.5 miles = maybe 22-25 degrees.

[Underdog]

"Watching the pro's teach us on youtube it seems you can just control it all with the throttle."

 

This is not true, here is Wags showing his control imputs & you can see him adjusting his stick to the right during that last 30 degree turn:

 

[G.J.S]

Mr.Burns, height during descent (level) can be controlled via throttle, and airspeed via elevator.

Once you move the lift vector off vertical, then you have to combine aileron, and to a certain degree rudder also.

But you will never be in equilibrium, all controls will require minor adjustments to maintain a descending bank.

A banked LEVEL turn ‘can’ be maintained with aileron to set a small bank, say below 30 degrees, and the turn altitude maintained by elevator alone, but such airliner turns are tedious at best.

Edited August 18, 2020 by garyscott

[BarTzi]

Nothing.....but you have to keep adjusting it so much that it makes no sense to remove your hand . I find I am constantly adjusting the throttles and the stick as I go around the turn. I did not say I could not correct it, my point was that the constant inputs meant that it was very difficult to keep your descent rate bang on as well as the bank angle and therefore where and when you rolled out. I imagine its a bit like flying a helicopter and having to balance the stick and collective at the same time....

 

I guess I was also wondering, that if it were possible ( and I am not suggesting that this should be done by the way) to set the back angle with the AP, like you can with flaps at auto, whether a 27 degree bank turn at approx 135 will drop you out exactly where you need to be. I guess yes, or they would not teach you to try and keep that angle and speed....

 

Of course, if you are struggling in the turn, getting more ( or less) vertical velocity and bank angle than you need due to over correcting or not anticipating the throttle inputs etc then this uses up most of your attention and will inevitably result in under or overshooting, arriving above or below the optimum glide slope point etc....

 

Basically then I need to practice more and get better!!

 

Bang on?

 

You have control over the aircraft. If the bank angle is not what you want, move the stick accordingly. If the rate of descent is not matching the numbers you want - use the throttle. React and adapt to the conditions and circumstances.

[markturner1960]

Thanks again all for the input...one thing I tried last night was to use much more extensive and constant throttle corrections, so you can eliminate to some extent the spool up and down effect. This did make it easier to keep ahead of what was happening......

Edited August 18, 2020 by markturner1960

[CBStu]

Agreed. For both throttle and aileron many small inputs wins every time. But it takes a lot of practice. Some times I am concentrating on one thing and suddenly realize I need to look at something else too. Coming onto the downwind and I find I am at 600 ft. Or at the same place, something is working right.....I find I forgot to drop the gear. Sometimes I try to correct it and other times I hit L Shift-R.

[nicka117]

Rudder is used on the F-14 to coordinate the turn. Rudder is not used in the F-18. Also shouldn't have to use back pressure on the stick, unless you are correcting for a mistake. Elevation and glide slope/rate of decent is entirely controlled by power, and you will have to put right pressure in the stick slightly to offset the F-18's negatively stable tendency to increase bank angle.

 

All of the above is exactly true to the real Hornet, except the negatively stable banking--not sure if that is true to the RL Hornet flight model.

 

PS, during the recovery, especially on final, the throttle is always moving back and forth.....always....as if you're playing a trombone....all the way into the wires.

Edited August 19, 2020 by nicka117

[markturner1960]

Thanks, although it is often tricky to avoid unintentionally inputting pitch to the stick when correcting angle in a bank and not being level.

[Swift.]

"Watching the pro's teach us on youtube it seems you can just control it all with the throttle."

 

This is not true, here is Wags showing his control imputs & you can see him adjusting his stick to the right during that last 30 degree turn:

 

 

Yeah of course. No one has ever said that the throttles will control bank aswell.

 

Pitch for speed, power for altitude.

Roll is still roll.

[CBStu]

Thanks, although it is often tricky to avoid unintentionally inputting pitch to the stick when correcting angle in a bank and not being level.

 

Agreed and I want to add a little to what I said in my posts above. My comment about almost constantly tapping the stick right to keep the bank correct was referencing the final 180 deg turn which is all done at on speed AOA. In the first break turn you are at higher speed and pulling back on the stick to get the proper G. For most of that turn the plane is slowing and the throttle is at idle. So there is no 'altitude is controlled by throttle'. Your altitude will be affected by both bank angle and by how much G you are pulling. IE; while the g is decreasing throughout the turn because your speed is dropping, at any given small portion of the turn where G is nearly constant, your altitude is controlled by bank angle. If you see you altitude is increasing, increase your bank a few degrees, you will lose some lift and your altitude will either stop increasing or settle depending how much you change bank. If altitude is dropping flatten your bank a little.

[BuzzU]

Wags always makes it look easy.

[Chuck_Henry]

I think there's a little confusion here over using throttles to set exact altitude and flight path angle. Specifically, a misconception that you must trim to on-speed AOA in the downwind and then never touch the stick again in terms of pitch. This is a drill intended to develop the muscle memory of flying the F/A-18 in approach configuration with its rather unique control laws compared to other fly-by-wire aircraft. You are not required to, nor is it necessarily recommended, to fly the jet this way operationally. It's like how at the V-22 FRS they constantly harped on us to keep the nose level and use purely nacelle angle to control airspeed all the way to touchdown. I can tell you few people do that in the fleet; we set landing nacelle early and use the cyclic like a helicopter. Flying to the ship is the rare exception because you want to avoid pitching the nose high to correct for excessive speed, since losing sight of the LSE is an automatic waveoff.

 

Minor stick inputs are sometimes better than throttle adjustments, especially in shifting or gusty wind conditions. This is because of the inherent lag we've all seen in increasing/reducing the Hornet's airspeed and waiting for the FCS to play catch up and pitch the nose accordingly. Watch any video of Hornet/Rhino pilots flying at the ship and you'll see tons of miniscule stick corrections in both roll and pitch. Stick and throttle should always be coordinated, even if the Hornet's FCS gives you the option to just use power and let the FCS handle the stick, so to speak.